Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Would that include the carbon emitted from the tankers that come from the other side of the world?

Yes, including all transportation costs to the refinery.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by davidivivid

In 2012, 92% of the oil ending up in Quebec refineries was mainly imported from Algeria, Kazakhstan and Angola. In 2017, about 82% of that oil came from North America and more specifically, 44% came from Canada. In other words, in 5 years, Quebec did a complete turnaround in its oil imports, turnaround which mainly benefitted canadian producers (9b Enbridge). Why is Saudi Arabia even mentioned I don't know.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/113...dge-dependance-canada-etats-unis-alberta

Is it too hard for RDI to provide exact links to the Stats Canada data?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by davidivivid

Why is Saudi Arabia and Venezuela even mentioned I don't know.

I was speaking of the Irving Oil refinery in Saint John (the largest refinery in Canada BTW). It buys from Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. Irving was a major proponent of Energy East.

[davidivivid]

Edit: According to a study by HEC Montreal, as of june 2018, 53% of the oil imported by Quebec comes from canadian producers in Alberta and Saskatchewan. (40% USA and 6% Algeria)

http://energie.hec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/EEQ2019_WEB.pdf

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I was speaking of the Irving Oil refinery in Saint John (the largest refinery in Canada BTW). It buys from Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. Irving was a major proponent of Energy East.

They probably want access to a more reliable source of heavy oil.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

They probably want access to a more reliable source of heavy oil.

When you talk to people outside Canada they are surprised that we import oil because we're supposed to be a big producer.

While there is some excuse due to the distances involved, in the end Canada is basically one long skinny strip of land so we're not forced to cover all of Canada with infrastructure.

Its a tad ridiculous that we don't have good rail, road, and pipe coverage of Canada.

Even if you say oil production will stop by 2040, pipelines are very useful for several other fluids. Perhaps desalination plants on the coast will be piping water to farms in the interior in the future, or fresh water extraction will be piping water to the coast for export? Hell perhaps we will take a page from James Bond and Futurama and use pipelines for quick long distance transportation. If there is a desire for private industry to fund a pipeline we'd be insane to say no. Its like saying no to Microsoft opening an office in your city.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

They probably want access to a more reliable source of heavy oil.

Irving also gets oil from the west via oil trains.

I hate oil trains (especially after Lac Megantic). A few years ago I was gassing up at a station in Rothesay NB when one of those trains passed by on the other side of the road. I couldn't believe how friggin long it was. All it would take is for a simple derailment, lose a couple of cars off the track and presto you have hell on Earth. I was really nervous as the train rolled by.It was probably no more than 70-80 feet from where I was fuelling my car.

Pipelines are definitely the way to go!!!

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Irving also gets oil from the west via oil trains.

I hate oil trains (especially after Lac Megantic). A few years ago I was gassing up at a station in Rothesay NB when one of those trains passed by on the other side of the road. I couldn't believe how friggin long it was. All it would take is for a simple derailment, lose a couple of cars off the track and presto you have hell on Earth. I was really nervous as the train rolled by.It was probably no more than 70-80 feet from where I was fuelling my car.

Pipelines are definitely the way to go!!!

I wouldn't be surprised if Irving wants more heavy oil from Alberta as relying on Venezuela is too risky. Apparently Repsol is seriously looking at shipping up to 500K barrels/day of heavy oil by train from Alberta to Montreal and then load it on to tankers to ship to Europe so they can have a reliable source of heavy oil. If training it to Montreal doesn't work they'll take it to New Jersey and then to Europe.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Irving also gets oil from the west via oil trains.

I hate oil trains (especially after Lac Megantic). A few years ago I was gassing up at a station in Rothesay NB when one of those trains passed by on the other side of the road. I couldn't believe how friggin long it was. All it would take is for a simple derailment, lose a couple of cars off the track and presto you have hell on Earth. I was really nervous as the train rolled by.It was probably no more than 70-80 feet from where I was fuelling my car.

Pipelines are definitely the way to go!!!

And yes, pipelines are the way to go. Much, much safer and there's much better use for the rail capacity.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by misher

When you talk to people outside Canada they are surprised that we import oil because we're supposed to be a big producer.

While there is some excuse due to the distances involved, in the end Canada is basically one long skinny strip of land so we're not forced to cover all of Canada with infrastructure.

Its a tad ridiculous that we don't have good rail, road, and pipe coverage of Canada.

Even if you say oil production will stop by 2040, pipelines are very useful for several other fluids. Perhaps desalination plants on the coast will be piping water to farms in the interior in the future, or fresh water extraction will be piping water to the coast for export? Hell perhaps we will take a page from James Bond and Futurama and use pipelines for quick long distance transportation. If there is a desire for private industry to fund a pipeline we'd be insane to say no. Its like saying no to Microsoft opening an office in your city.

Totally agree with all of your points.

[MacLac]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I wouldn't be surprised if Irving wants more heavy oil from Alberta as relying on Venezuela is too risky. Apparently Repsol is seriously looking at shipping up to 500K barrels/day of heavy oil by train from Alberta to Montreal and then load it on to tankers to ship to Europe so they can have a reliable source of heavy oil. If training it to Montreal doesn't work they'll take it to New Jersey and then to Europe.

Repsol doesn't have any oil assets in Canada....they bought out Talisman which was gas mainly at the time....I'd imagine they pump out a few '000 barrels of oil a day...but no where near 500,000.

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Totally agree with all of your points.

Shocking

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by MacLac

Repsol doesn't have any oil assets in Canada....they bought out Talisman which was gas mainly at the time....I'd imagine they pump out a few '000 barrels of oil a day...but no where near 500,000.

According to Bloomberg Repsol produces conventional heavy crude in west-central Alberta at its Chauvin field. I imagine they could also obtain heavy oil from other producers.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by misher

When you talk to people outside Canada they are surprised that we import oil because we're supposed to be a big producer.

While there is some excuse due to the distances involved, in the end Canada is basically one long skinny strip of land so we're not forced to cover all of Canada with infrastructure.

Its a tad ridiculous that we don't have good rail, road, and pipe coverage of Canada.

We are a net exporter of a lot of natural resources, but that doesn't mean we don't import where it makes sense. Welcome to the integrated global economy.

[WarrenC12]

Pipelines are safer, but not safe... 1.4 Million liters from Keystone just a few weeks ago.

[MacLac]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

According to Bloomberg Repsol produces conventional heavy crude in west-central Alberta at its Chauvin field. I imagine they could also obtain heavy oil from other producers.

Just read that article...strange that they would buy crude from an Oilsands producer and ship to Europe to refine.....Europe must be paying a huge premium in price. I guarantee their Chauvin field wouldn't amount to more than 10,000 barrels/day. But half a million barrels, taken out of CNRL's inventory would be about half...so this does help....hmmmm. It would be the equivalent of say an Irving - the Judas of Canada.....importing foreign oil into the country rather then use Canadian produced oil....

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I was speaking of the Irving Oil refinery in Saint John (the largest refinery in Canada BTW). It buys from Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. Irving was a major proponent of Energy East.

I have long been a proponent of keeping Canada's resources within Canada. While I understand the economic benefits of international trade, it has always perplexed me why we extract oil in Canada and ship it overseas, while in the meantime buy oil from other countries.

Same with food. We have great agricultural and fishery resources within Canada yet we are still importing food from places like China and selling our stuff to them (to sometimes process it and sell it back to us).

Not to mention living on the east coast, looking at a package of frozen fish in the supermarket... product of China! Seriously? How much of a carbon footprint is there to extracting a farmed fish in China (probably farmed in waters polluted with more chemicals than I would have room to write about here), freeze the thing, ship it halfway around the world, to sell in a place that already has a decent fishery. Ridiculous.

Water - selling water from Canada's supply of fresh water lakes for next to nothing, so that American companies can bottle it and sell it at a profit. Is this really how we want to use our water (which I'm always hearing that we must use less of)?

I dunno... there really needs to be some clearer thought among ALL politicians, regardless of political brand, to make Canada work for Canada. It shouldn't be east vs west, Alberta vs Quebec, Conservative vs Liberal - that's all horseshit... let's cut the crap and work together as Canadians. CANADA has a great reserve of natural resources, our first priority should be benefiting Canadians, and sell to the rest of the world what we can't use ourselves. For China to be able to hold our farmers hostage indicates that we need a different balance with the world, one that puts Canadians first. It didn't take long for them to drop the ban on Canadian pork when their own country's pork reserves started to drop - yet we don't seem to understand the power and wealth that we are holding in our own resources.

So it's time to stop the goddamn bickering and let's get our shit together...

And if we were to do this, all the Russki cyber shit disturbers would be rendered completely ineffective - no negative discourse here because Canadians work together...

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by MacLac

Just read that article...strange that they would buy crude from an Oilsands producer and ship to Europe to refine.....Europe must be paying a huge premium in price. I guarantee their Chauvin field wouldn't amount to more than 10,000 barrels/day. But half a million barrels, taken out of CNRL's inventory would be about half...so this does help....hmmmm. It would be the equivalent of say an Irving - the Judas of Canada.....importing foreign oil into the country rather then use Canadian produced oil....

The only reason I know about this is because an oil industry expert was on a talk radio show last week in Calgary and mentioned this might happen. It's not a done deal but if it happens it'll definitely help. The guy said if it does move forward it'll probably start in March.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I have long been a proponent of keeping Canada's resources within Canada. While I understand the economic benefits of international trade, it has always perplexed me why we extract oil in Canada and ship it overseas, while in the meantime buy oil from other countries.

Same with food. We have great agricultural and fishery resources within Canada yet we are still importing food from places like China and selling our stuff to them (to sometimes process it and sell it back to us).

Not to mention living on the east coast, looking at a package of frozen fish in the supermarket... product of China! Seriously? How much of a carbon footprint is there to extracting a farmed fish in China (probably farmed in waters polluted with more chemicals than I would have room to write about here), freeze the thing, ship it halfway around the world, to sell in a place that already has a decent fishery. Ridiculous.

Water - selling water from Canada's supply of fresh water lakes for next to nothing, so that American companies can bottle it and sell it at a profit. Is this really how we want to use our water (which I'm always hearing that we must use less of)?

I dunno... there really needs to be some clearer thought among ALL politicians, regardless of political brand, to make Canada work for Canada. It shouldn't be east vs west, Alberta vs Quebec, Conservative vs Liberal - that's all horseshit... let's cut the crap and work together as Canadians. CANADA has a great reserve of natural resources, our first priority should be benefiting Canadians, and sell to the rest of the world what we can't use ourselves. For China to be able to hold our farmers hostage indicates that we need a different balance with the world, one that puts Canadians first. It didn't take long for them to drop the ban on Canadian pork when their own country's pork reserves started to drop - yet we don't seem to understand the power and wealth that we are holding in our own resources.

So it's time to stop the goddamn bickering and let's get our shit together...

And if we were to do this, all the Russki cyber shit disturbers would be rendered completely ineffective - no negative discourse here because Canadians work together...

Energy independence should be a key strategic goal for Canada. Are we the only country that doesn't care about energy independence? Also, why don't we have a strategic supply of oil, etc. like the U.S. does? We always assume everything will be okay and then when we get blindsided we don't have a clue of what to do.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Energy independence should be a key strategic goal for Canada. Are we the only country that doesn't care about energy independence? Also, why don't we have a strategic supply of oil, etc. like the U.S. does? We always assume everything will be okay and then when we get blindsided we don't have a clue of what to do.

The US had a strategic supply of oil when they were importing significant amounts from the Middle East. For obvious reasons.