Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[dleung]

Originally Posted by lio45

LOL! You can "turn off the taps"... if you have the cojones to do it. We'll just get our oil from somewhere else while progressively getting off it. No big deal.

We're doing AB a favor by using its dirty oil, not the other way around.

Isn't the billions in equalization the big favour?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

I would guess that most people who tell Alberta to shutdown and diversify are completely blind to the fact their first world way of life is entirely dependent on O&G.

Life today is, but that's changing, and quickly.

Most other provinces are starting to grow their populations and economies without massive increases in emissions.

Alberta is blindly driving towards a cliff, and it's going to be a long fall.

[misher]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Life today is, but that's changing, and quickly.

Most other provinces are starting to grow their populations and economies without massive increases in emissions.

Alberta is blindly driving towards a cliff, and it's going to be a long fall.

Which provinces? BC and Quebec are both investing heavily in LNG.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by dleung

Isn't the billions in equalization the big favour?

Yep. All the sanctimonious eco posturing doesn't mean shit when you're still cashing the cheques.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by misher

Which provinces? BC and Quebec are both investing heavily in LNG.

Refer to the link I posted.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yep. All the sanctimonious eco posturing doesn't mean shit when you're still cashing the cheques.

No one here is going to complain if the tarsands get shut down and AB becomes "have not" and we get less equalization as a result.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

No one here is going to complain if the tarsands get shut down and AB becomes "have not" and we get less equalization as a result.

I guess we'll never know for sure.

[misher]

Originally Posted by lio45

No one here is going to complain if the tarsands get shut down and AB becomes "have not" and we get less equalization as a result.

Yes but the empty gas stations and collapsing economy might get a few protests.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by misher

Yes but the empty gas stations and collapsing economy might get a few protests.

You do realize that the Tarsands only represent about 12% of Canada's GDP right? While that is a big number it's not enough to collapse the Canadian economy if and when they are finally shut down. It will have a huge impact on Alberta's economy however as it represents around 85% of that provinces GDP. Alberta needs to look at itself for change, not whine to the rest of us about getting your oil out faster to markets. If Albertan's don't change their current state of affairs they will be dooming the province to a bleak future of their own making. Also empty gas station won't even be a thing in the not so distant future as people will be driving cars that no longer use gas for fuel.

But hey, great argument misher.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

You do realize that the Tarsands only represent about 12% of Canada's GDP right? While that is a big number it's not enough to collapse the Canadian economy if and when they are finally shut down. It will have a huge impact on Alberta's economy however as it represents around 85% of that provinces GDP. Alberta needs to look at itself for change, not whine to the rest of us about getting your oil out faster to markets. If Albertan's don't change their current state of affairs they will be dooming the province to a bleak future of their own making. Also empty gas station won't even be a thing in the not so distant future as people will be driving cars that no longer use gas for fuel.

But hey, great argument misher.

I'd wager that just about every man, woman and child in the country would feel it if Canada's GDP suddenly shrank by 12%. That would be ugly.

At its worst Greece's GDP shrank by 9% and look at the shit show that happened there.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'd wager that just about every man, woman and child in the country would feel it if Canada's GDP suddenly shrank by 12%. That would be ugly.

At its worst Greece's GDP shrank by 9% and look at the shit show that happened there.

The recession of the early '90s caused a drop in GDP of, what, 2-4%?

I do not remember it being a particularly happy time.

Unemployment up near the 10% range, governments hacking budgets, debt ratings downgrades, Quebec thinking of bailing out.

I mean, I'm glad our Quebec and Alberta members are willing to kneecap the other as it wouldn't be Canada otherwise, but I'm relieved that saner voices prevail in our national discourse.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yep. All the sanctimonious eco posturing doesn't mean shit when you're still cashing the cheques.

...and driving your car and heating your house and flying in an airplane to your vacation destination.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by wave46

The recession of the early '90s caused a drop in GDP of, what, 2-4%?

I do not remember it being a particularly happy time.

Unemployment up near the 10% range, governments hacking budgets, debt ratings downgrades, Quebec thinking of bailing out.

I mean, I'm glad our Quebec and Alberta members are willing to kneecap the other as it wouldn't be Canada otherwise, but I'm relieved that saner voices prevail in our national discourse.

Nothing would happen overnight. The demand for oil will dip, and Alberta's will be among the first casualties due to the price of getting it out of the ground.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Nothing would happen overnight. The demand for oil will dip, and Alberta's will be among the first casualties due to the price of getting it out of the ground.

Then let economics do its job. If what you say is true, economics will kill the tar sands better than anything else.

The decline of newspapers is killing the pulp and paper industry quite effectively. Which is good for the planet, since we're not hacking down forests and running carbon-intensive paper mills.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

The recession of the early '90s caused a drop in GDP of, what, 2-4%?

I do not remember it being a particularly happy time.

Unemployment up near the 10% range, governments hacking budgets, debt ratings downgrades, Quebec thinking of bailing out.

I mean, I'm glad our Quebec and Alberta members are willing to kneecap the other as it wouldn't be Canada otherwise, but I'm relieved that saner voices prevail in our national discourse.

I don't think everyone grasps how devastating a sharp 12% GDP drop would be. We're talking mass protests and riots. Drastic increases in unemployment, poverty and homelessness. Social safety net and pensions gutted. Taxes up. It would change Canada as we know it. We would probably start to look more like a South American country than a major industrialized nation.

But if that's the price we have to pay to prove a point...

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't think everyone grasps how devastating a sharp 12% GDP drop would be. We're talking mass protests and riots. Drastic increases in unemployment, poverty and homelessness. Social safety net and pensions gutted. Taxes up. It would change Canada as we know it. We would probably start to look more like a South American country than a major industrialized nation.

But we stuck it to the other guy!

We'd also reduce our carbon emissions quite dramatically.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

But we stuck it to the other guy!

We'd also reduce our carbon emissions quite dramatically.

Ha. At least there's that.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

Ha. At least there's that.

Yeah, it's like telling the guy who just stepped on a landmine that you found his shoes.

Um, thanks. That's quite the silver lining there. Let it never be said that I can't find a little bit of that.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by lio45

No one here is going to complain if the tarsands get shut down and AB becomes "have not" and we get less equalization as a result.

Great post... not only does it show your admission that your equalization cheques are dependent on the "tar" sands that your province demonizes and despises it running through your province, but your post also implies that you do not even strive to become a "have" province, rather, remain a have-not and just expect less money.

I mean, if Quebec so despises the "tar" sands, and they really wouldn't care if they got shut down, and it would have minimal effect on your equalization cheques, why doesn't Quebec advocate to revise the equalization formula to omit "tar" sands revenue? I mean, not doing so would scream hypocrisy from Quebec

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by wave46

Then let economics do its job. If what you say is true, economics will kill the tar sands better than anything else.

The decline of newspapers is killing the pulp and paper industry quite effectively. Which is good for the planet, since we're not hacking down forests and running carbon-intensive paper mills.

It's happening. Alberta is whining.