YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[nname]

Well, I guess it's now official.

Vancouver added a new direct-flight destination this year..

I wonder how would YVR put this route on their destination list or even attempt to draw it on the map

https://www.flyairnorth.com/DealsAndNews/News.aspx?newsID=72

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by nname

Seems like no one cares about YVR passenger data anymore?

September 2019

Domestic: 1,136,494 (+5.7%)

Transborder: 529,152 (+2.5%)
Asia Pacific: 374,264 (-1.1%)
Europe: 221,492 (-0.5%)
Misc: 41,994 (-12.8%)
International: 1,166,902 (+0.1%)

Total: 2,303,396 (+2.8%)


YTD 2019

Domestic: 9,666,132 (+1.7%)

Transborder: 4,970,949 (+1.6%)
Asia Pacific: 3,504,452 (+2.7%)
Europe: 1,465,968 (+0.6%)
Misc: 687,452 (-0.3%)
International: 10,628,821 (+1.7%)

Total: 20,294,953 (+1.7%)

Despite how depressing it's become, I still do!

I was going to post it but you beat me to it. This is better than I expected, but still pretty dismal and a shade of what it should be given what the economy is doing right now.

Originally Posted by nname

Well, I guess it's now official.

Vancouver added a new direct-flight destination this year..

I wonder how would YVR put this route on their destination list or even attempt to draw it on the map

https://www.flyairnorth.com/DealsAndNews/News.aspx?newsID=72

That's a weird one. the Naniamo leg seems so needless.

[thebus]

Originally Posted by Klazu

That's too bad about Hong Kong Airlines. Did they end up putting an A350 on the YVR route? Anyone taken the flight? Are they competitively priced Vs. Cathay Pacific and Air Canada?

We took HX to Hong Kong last spring. Their A350s are very nice and it was a good experience even in Economy. The price was really cheap too which helped our choice. Definitely recommend them.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Despite how depressing it's become, I still do!

I was going to post it but you beat me to it. This is better than I expected, but still pretty dismal and a shade of what it should be given what the economy is doing right now.



That's a weird one. the Naniamo leg seems so needless.

it gives nanaimo and islanders a direct flight to Kelowna which is great.

[SpongeG]

Air North introducing direct flights between Yellowknife and Vancouver in January

The flight will be offered twice a week, on Mondays and Fridays
CBC News · Posted: Nov 08, 2019

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/air-north-direct-flight-yellowknife-vancouver-1.5354043

[Johnny Aussie]

Due to the ongoing Max grounding Westjet has added another daily flight to Hawaii in January. Departs at 1715 split 4pw to HNL and 3pw to OGG. Total 7 daily on WS YVR-Hawaii.

[SpongeG]

Turkish Airlines plans non-stop flights to Vancouver

Bureaucratic hurdle still needs to be overcome before flights can launch
By Glen Korstrom | November 18, 2019


Turkish Consul General Taylan Tokmak believes Turks will do more business in Vancouver if Turkish Airlines launches non-stop flights between Vancouver and Istanbul | Rob Kruyt

Turkish Airlines (IST:THYAO) has announced plans to fly non-stop between Istanbul and Vancouver, but a bureaucratic hurdle may keep the carrier from launching its desired route.

In mid-October, the airline posted a notice to the investor relations part of its website saying that it “has decided to start operating scheduled flights, based on market conditions, to Vancouver, Canada.”

The notice was a heads-up to investors, given that slightly more than half of the venture’s shares trade on the Borsa Istanbul stock exchange. The Turkish government holds the remainder.

...

The airline did not reveal a launch date for the route because it is not yet a done deal. Canada and Turkey must sign off on changes to a bilateral air-services agreement to enable domestic carriers to fly to three cities in the foreign country, up from two.

...

Air Canada, however, could spoil Turkish Airlines’ plans.

National carriers, such as Air Canada, have an almost veto-like power over changes to air-services agreements. In 2010, Air Canada stymied Emirates airline’s effort to get governments to change an air-services agreement to allow it to operate non-stop flights between Dubai and Vancouver. Air Canada CEO Calin Rovinescu explained to BIV in 2013 that his opposition was because he believed Emirates would pick up passengers from Canada and take them to third countries using Dubai as a stopover.

Air Canada also opposed Singapore Airlines’ (SGX:C6L) 2007 request to increase to daily its thrice-weekly flights between Singapore and Vancouver via Seoul, Korea, because Air Canada feared losing passengers.

That opposition prompted Ottawa to reject Singapore Airlines’ request for increased frequency, spurring the airline to stop flying out of Vancouver in April 2009.

...

“My understanding is that right now there is not a problem,” he told BIV. “They have sorted it out, the two companies [Air Canada and Turkish Airlines]; this is what my understanding is.”

He said a “high-level delegation” from Turkish Airlines met with Vancouver Airport Authority officials in October, and that there have been discussions around Turkish Airlines opening an office at Vancouver International Airport.

Airport officials told BIV that they welcome the proposed route because it is their role to connect B.C. to the world.

...

https://biv.com/article/2019/11/turkish-airlines-plans-non-stop-flights-vancouver

[trofirhen]

The potential veto by Air Canada to block Turkish from gaining YVR landing rights makes my blood boil.
Is it becuse TK to Vancouver will take away business from Air Canada? Air Canada dropped its flights from YYZ and YUL to IST, leaving the traffic to Turkish Airlines.
Air Canada works in co-operation with the GTAA, so the only reason I can think Air Canada would want to block this is either to get more people to trasit via YYZ, augmenting YYZ landing fees and obliging Vancouver - Istanbul bound passengers to to use Air Canada.
Air Canada naturally wants the largest market share it can get, so would anybody, but why does it, (and Transport Canada) block airlines from YVR? If anyone can provide a specific, precise answer, I'm all ears, and I'm sure a lot of other people are, too.
But if it is on routes not served by Air Canada - and Istanbul is not (neither is Singapore), then why? Some posters have claimed that it is the interests of "what is good for Canadians."
Regarding this latest instance, can anybody explain how blocking TK from YVR is "good" for Canadians. Which Canadians? Not YVR travellers. The Air Canada? YYZ? Does anyone have a coherent answer?
Tangentially, if the government has any concerns about increasing Western Canadian alienation, this is yet another coal on the fire to fuel that alienation and anger.

[thenoflyzone]

trofirhen,

this is gonna sting a bit, but it has to be said.

Are you unable to retain information that is posted on here? This is a legitimate question.

I say this because for the better part of a year (maybe even more), we have been talking about TK, why they want/can't serve YVR (at the moment), how it would affect Air Canada, etc etc. And yet, you still keep asking the same damn questions over and over and over and over again, expecting a different answer every time it seems. (That's the definition of insanity, btw)

Go back and read this very thread carefully. All the answers are there.

And western alienation? Really. Tying that in with TK unable (at the moment) to serve YVR is insane (see, I used that word again). When AC was blocking EK and EY from getting more landing rights in YYZ, was that eastern alienation then?

TK will most likely serve YVR in 2020. You can relax.

[thenoflyzone]

BIV reported in 2016 that the Vancouver Turkish Canadian Society (VTCA) launched a petition on Change.org, calling for an airline to launch the route. The petition closed with 1,549 supporters.

Wow. A whole 1,549 signatures ! I think a zero or two behind that number would look better.

Clearly illustrates the lack of interest for IST as a destination (O&D), and really shows what TK and the Turkish goverment (a major TK shareholder) are after. Connecting traffic. This is why AC doesn't play nice with these carriers. Whether people agree with AC's strategy, that is entirely a different matter.

(trofirhen, write this down if it will help you remember it in a few months)

[trofirhen]

deleted

[casper]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Wow. A whole 1,549 signatures ! I think a zero or two behind that number would look better.

Clearly illustrates the lack of interest for IST as a destination (O&D), and really shows what TK and the Turkish goverment (a major TK shareholder) are after. Connecting traffic. This is why AC doesn't play nice with these carriers. Whether people agree with AC's strategy, that is entirely a different matter.

(trofirhen, write this down if it will help you remember it in a few months)

Could be wrong but I don't think Air Canada has that much say in this.

The bigger issue in my mind would be the fact the Turkish military is invading a country. Justified or not. Leaving aside Trump, I don't think any western political leader wants to be seen signing a deal that expands trade or air services just now.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by casper

Could be wrong but I don't think Air Canada has that much say in this.

The bigger issue in my mind would be the fact the Turkish military is invading a country. Justified or not. Leaving aside Trump, I don't think any western political leader wants to be seen signing a deal that expands trade or air services just now.

Dont get me started on Turkey and its policies ! I am an Armenian Canadian after all. I dont hide my disdain for Turkey.

If it was up to me, Turkey and Canada would have no diplomatic relations. Period.

This being said, Trudeau will not be "seen" signing anything. These ATA's and their expansions are done behind closed doors, away from the public's eye and public scrutiny. In that regard, it wouldn't surprise me to see the bilateral ATA expanded and see TK at YVR in 2020.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

trofirhen, this is gonna sting a bit, but it has to be said. Are you unable to retain information that is posted on here? This is a legitimate question.

For once I agree with you as it is baffling to me as well. At least we have had a few months break from South America connections discussion...

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Wow. A whole 1,549 signatures ! I think a zero or two behind that number would look better.

Clearly illustrates the lack of interest for IST as a destination (O&D), and really shows what TK and the Turkish goverment (a major TK shareholder) are after. Connecting traffic. This is why AC doesn't play nice with these carriers. Whether people agree with AC's strategy, that is entirely a different matter.

(trofirhen, write this down if it will help you remember it in a few months)

To be fair... very few people go to Frankfurt as a destination... it's a Star Alliance Hub.

And I don't see a problem with Istanbul being a connecting hub for Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. It's REALLY well positioned.

In fact, I recently connected to IST on my way to Singapore on an Aeroplan redemption. I had to fly through YUL but would welcome a direct flight. I'd probably choose to fly to Europe via Turkey as well.

YVR-IST-ROM is only 10% longer than YVR-YYZ-ROM
YVR-YYZ-VIE is only 5% longer via Istanbul.



http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=YVR-YYZ-VIE,c...MS=wls&MX=540x540&PM=*&PC=%23ff0000&PW=4

I don't know about you... but considering Turkish Airlines has 4 daily flights to Vienna, I'd MUCH rather a long overnight in a lie-flat TK 787 followed by short European hop, than two medium 5-6 hour flights.

TK has a compelling product and Air Canada knows it will be hard to compete with its product. They also don't charge outrageous fees on award redemptions. YVR don't have ANY no-scamfee charge airlines to Europe. YYZ has TAP, LX, LOT, BR, TK...

Politics of Turkey aside, I welcome the airline with open arms.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

To be fair... very few people go to Frankfurt as a destination... it's a Star Alliance Hub.

And I don't see a problem with Istanbul being a connecting hub for Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. It's REALLY well positioned.

In fact, I recently connected to IST on my way to Singapore on an Aeroplan redemption. I had to fly through YUL but would welcome a direct flight. I'd probably choose to fly to Europe via Turkey as well.

YVR-IST-ROM is only 10% longer than YVR-YYZ-ROM
YVR-YYZ-VIE is only 5% longer via Istanbul.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=YVR-YYZ-VIE,c...MS=wls&MX=540x540&PM=*&PC=%23ff0000&PW=4

I don't know about you... but considering Turkish Airlines has 4 daily flights to Vienna, I'd MUCH rather a long overnight in a lie-flat TK 787 followed by short European hop, than two medium 5-6 hour flights.

TK has a compelling product and Air Canada knows it will be hard to compete with its product. They also don't charge outrageous fees on award redemptions. YVR don't have ANY no-scamfee charge airlines to Europe. YYZ has TAP, LX, LOT, BR, TK...

Politics of Turkey aside, I welcome the airline with open arms.

You make a few valid points. However,

1. FRA is the exception. All the other European hubs (save maybe AMS) have a decent amount of O&D to/from Canada, explaining the open skies agreement with the European Union. Also, people flying to FRA are also connecting to dozens of domestic destinations in Germany, and Canada-Germany O&D is far greater than Canada-Turkey.

At least on all your flights to FRA (except for DE), a Canadian company - which supports Canadian jobs - is getting revenue.

2. Air Canada's signature class is miles ahead of TK business class product on the B77W and A333 (which is what they use to YYZ and YUL). You have access to the signature class between YVR and both YYZ and YUL, as AC uses widebodies on these routes several times a day, so you can have end to end signature class service between YVR and VIE, which is better than what TK has to Canada, all the while flying on a Canadian company.

Granted, TK's new lie flat business class seats on their B789s and A350s will give AC a run for their money, but those aren't used on Canada flights at the moment. They soon will be though. However, I consider it to be on par with what AC mainline offers across the Atlantic.

3. The Canadian government doesn't care if you have easy access to a 700$ ticket to Europe, or if your local airport has access to airlines that have no surcharges on redemption flights. What they care about is fair competition (based on reciprocity and O&D) and protecting Canadian companies and jobs. If that means TK only has access to a certain number of weekly frequencies to Canada, then so be it.

This being said, I'll repeat what I wrote a few months ago. I think Canada should gradually give more frequencies to these countries. But it should be based on merit (as well as what I wrote in point #3 above). By flying TK, you're willingly or unwillingly financing the Turkish government, as they are a major stakeholder of TK, so yes, politics should play a role in these agreements as well. If the Turkish government is killing a minority group (in their country, or even worse, in another), then that shouldn't sit well with our government, and I'm glad it isn't. If that has an effect on the air transport agreement between our two countries, then so be it.

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

3. The Canadian government doesn't care if you have easy access to a 700$ ticket to Europe, or if your local airport has access to airlines that have no surcharges on redemption flights. What they care about is fair competition (based on reciprocity and O&D) and protecting Canadian companies and jobs. If that means TK only has access to a certain number of weekly frequencies to Canada, then so be it.

This being said, I'll repeat what I wrote a few months ago. I think Canada should gradually give more frequencies to these countries. But it should be based on merit (as well as what I wrote in point #3 above). By flying TK, you're willingly or unwillingly financing the Turkish government, as they are a major stakeholder of TK, so yes, politics should play a role in these agreements as well. If the Turkish government is killing a minority group (in their country, or even worse, in another), then that shouldn't sit well with our government, and I'm glad it isn't. If that has an effect on the air transport agreement between our two countries, then so be it.

However, if you're going to play the "politics" card and "Canadian jobs" card then you might as well not allow any Chinese carriers access to Canada. You can't get any more recent news than this: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063. Don't forget any flights to the middle east or even Poland and Hungary. See the list goes on and on depending on your perspective. You can send tanker traffic down the St. Lawrence but not the west coast? You can import oil from countries with horrendous (lack of) human rights but not support local oil that protects Canadian jobs?

See it goes on and on. Let YVR have it's Istanbul route and let people decide whether they will support it. I know it will take away traffic from AC, YUL and YYZ. While i appreciate your knowledge of the airline industry your comments almost always skew towards promoting and protecting YUL, AC and TS. If AC's product is on par or better than TK then the YVR-IST route will fail and AC can keep on connecting us through wherever.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by LO 044

However, if you're going to play the "politics" card and "Canadian jobs" card then you might as well not allow any Chinese carriers access to Canada.

I agree. Canada should ban Chinese carriers. Same with Saudi Arabia and other countries with human rights violations. BTW, Turkey is one of the global hot spots for human rights violations.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/23/amnesty-...jor-human-rights-violations-in-2017.html

This being said, Canada-China O&D and import/export is far greater than what we have with Turkey. If you were to ban Chinese carriers from Canada, that would impact our economy on a far greater scale than doing it with Turkey. Also, YVR's international passenger numbers would crumble instantly.

I am glad Chinese carriers are maxed out of Canada and can't add anymore flights. At least our government seems to be holding firm in that regard.

Originally Posted by LO 044

You can send tanker traffic down the St. Lawrence but not the west coast?

Not familiar with this matter. The way you describe it, it seems like the provincial governments dictate what ships can pass through their waterways.

Always thought navigation and shipping was a federal subject matter.

Originally Posted by LO 044

You can import oil from countries with horrendous (lack of) human rights but not support local oil that protects Canadian jobs?

Quebec now imports nearly half of its oil from Alberta. So we are supporting Alberta's oil industry. Tanker ships from Algeria and other oil rich countries is significantly down compared to previous years.

And there is already an Enbridge oil pipeline from Sarnia to Montreal (Line 9) that ships Alberta crude all the way to Quebec. So honestly, this whole western alienation 🞵🞵🞵🞵 is a bit silly. With all due respect, Alberta needs to get over itself and diversify its economy already !

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

I agree. Canada should ban Chinese carriers. Same with Saudi Arabia and other countries with human rights violations. BTW, Turkey is one of the global hot spots for human rights violations.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/23/amnesty-...jor-human-rights-violations-in-2017.html

This being said, Canada-China O&D and import/export is far greater than what we have with Turkey. If you were to ban Chinese carriers from Canada, that would impact our economy on a far greater scale than doing it with Turkey. Also, YVR's international passenger numbers would crumble instantly.

I am glad Chinese carriers are maxed out of Canada and can't add anymore flights. At least our government seems to be holding firm in that regard.



Not familiar with this matter. The way you describe it, it seems like the provincial governments dictate what ships can pass through their waterways.

Always thought navigation and shipping was a federal subject matter.



Quebec now imports nearly half of its oil from Alberta. So we are supporting Alberta's oil industry. Tanker ships from Algeria and other oil rich countries is significantly down compared to previous years.

And there is already an Enbridge oil pipeline from Sarnia to Montreal (Line 9) that ships Alberta crude all the way to Quebec. So honestly, this whole western alienation 🞵🞵🞵🞵 is a bit silly. With all due respect, Alberta needs to get over itself and diversify its economy already !

This has nothing to do with alienation this has to do with morals. If you're going to use morals and "the right thing to do" to dictate your economic choices than do it across the board. Your statement "If you were to ban Chinese carriers from Canada, that would impact our economy on a far greater scale than doing it with Turkey." is a perfect example. Care about everyone's situation in the world not just the people that will create the least amount of impact on you. There is a double standard in this country.

Why don't you take on 100% of Alberta's oil? Then you can import from the US and say you are doing your part by not supporting regimes with human rights violations as hobbies. This is what people in Quebec don't get. They turn a blind eye to oil by rail, tanker traffic on the St. Lawrence that is coming from human rights abuse countries. BTW i see the propane issue is front and center now. No one is talking about keeping the natural gas in the ground in Quebec are they?

OK i'm done my venting lol. Sorry to hijack the YVR thread. What can i say i connect through YVR at times and it is a great airport.

[nname]

Seems like YVR-DEL ranked 4th in CX's top connecting market:

https://www.anna.aero/2019/11/25/top-20-connecting-routes-for-cathay-pacific-dubai-manila-1/