Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by Mister F

If you don't want an interprovincial pissing match, don't start one.

He didn't start one. I read his response again, and all it was in reference to was a hypothetical situation. It was a pretty innocent comment.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I was simply responding to you and wave64 saying that Ontario is only so successful because of the federal government, and that it would just be an extension of the rust belt without it. These are pretty common claims and I decided to show you why they're an exaggeration at best. If you don't want an interprovincial pissing match, don't start one.

I know someone123 is not, but isn't wave64 an Ontario guy through and through?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

lol you guys are priceless. Somehow I knew that the classic "you're no better than Michigan" putdown would make an appearance. .

Michigan isn't all Detroit. Illinois isn't all South Side Chicago.

Ontario's per capita GDP is about the same as the large Rust Belt states (Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Illinois) or even below in some cases.

[Acajack]

Yesterday the Bloc leader was asked about #wexit and he said something like "they shouldn't expect any help from me".

He got a few reactions notably from Jason Kenney but also Tory MP Michelle Rempel who tweeted about Quebec getting 12 billion dollars a year of "our money" or "Alberta's money" (can't remember which).

This is why I often talk about political maturity and sophistication.

[Acajack]

What Michelle Rempel actually wrote:


Your province is literally funded by our energy sector. If you're so concerned about our industry, feel free to send that $12B you get every year from us back. #hypocrite


#Philistines

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yesterday the Bloc leader was asked about #wexit and he said something like "they shouldn't expect any help from me".

He got a few reactions notably from Jason Kenney but also Tory MP Michelle Rempel who tweeted about Quebec getting 12 billion dollars a year of "our money" or "Alberta's money" (can't remember which).

This is why I often talk about political maturity and sophistication.

Are they correct though?..I don't know enough about transfer payments to know if Quebec receives more then they put in..Especially oil revenue from a rich province.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Razor

Are they correct though?..I don't know enough about transfer payments to know if Quebec receives more then they put in..Especially oil revenue from a rich province.

What she said is clearly incorrect:

Interesting article in French about Jason Kenney's claims about Alberta "sending" equalization money to Quebec.

I think most of us (though not all) understand that the money doesn't come directly from Alberta's coffers.

But still, how much of the 13.1 billion dollars Quebec receives in equalization, actually comes from federal taxes paid in Alberta?

This article says it's 1.8 billion.

And if Legault wrote Kenney a cheque for 1.8 billion, Alberta would still have a deficit and Quebec would still have a surplus.

Also, if all taxes in Alberta (sales and income) were raised to Quebec levels, Alberta would have a 30 billion dollar surplus.

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/20...es-albertaines
__________________

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What she said is clearly incorrect:

Interesting article in French about Jason Kenney's claims about Alberta "sending" equalization money to Quebec.

I think most of us (though not all) understand that the money doesn't come directly from Alberta's coffers.

But still, how much of the 13.1 billion dollars Quebec receives in equalization, actually comes from federal taxes paid in Alberta?

This article says it's 1.8 billion.

And if Legault wrote Kenney a cheque for 1.8 billion, Alberta would still have a deficit and Quebec would still have a surplus.

Also, if all taxes in Alberta (sales and income) were raised to Quebec levels, Alberta would have a 30 billion dollar surplus.

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/20...es-albertaines
__________________

Requoted for truth.

Alberta has no right to complain, at least not until it taxes it's citizens in a manner similar to the rest of the country.

Regarding equalization - all Canadians contribute to equalization, not just Alberta. The real issue is the formula used to disburse these funds.

Finally, regarding the resource wealth with which Alberta is blessed with, at some point in time there will be a reckoning as to who this bounty actually belong to. Does it belong to Alberta, to all Canadians or a little bit to both. I would choose the latter myself. Alberta therefore cannot simply collect it's marbles and walk away screaming about letting the "eastern bastards freeze in the dark". Cooperative federalism does not work this way.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Razor

Are they correct though?..I don't know enough about transfer payments to know if Quebec receives more then they put in..Especially oil revenue from a rich province.

So, what happens is the equalization payments come from the federal income tax. So, Alberta as a province gives squat. Let me say that again. The province of Alberta contributes $0.00 to the equalization payment. All of us who pay federal income tax are contributing to the pot of money. Certain provinces get equalization payments while others do not. So, you are not giving it to any province any more than you are paying for the military or other federal government services.

But the truth would not fit with certain Premier's narrative.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, what happens is the equalization payments come from the federal income tax. So, Alberta as a province gives squat. Let me say that again. The province of Alberta contributes $0.00 to the equalization payment. All of us who pay federal income tax are contributing to the pot of money. Certain provinces get equalization payments while others do not. So, you are not giving it to any province any more than you are paying for the military or other federal government services.

But the truth would not fit with certain Premier's narrative.

So if Alberta doesn’t provide any money to the equalization payment, safe to say every other province doesn’t provide any money? Question is then, where does the money come from?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Requoted for truth.

Alberta has no right to complain, at least not until it taxes it's citizens in a manner similar to the rest of the country.

Regarding equalization - all Canadians contribute to equalization, not just Alberta. The real issue is the formula used to disburse these funds.

Finally, regarding the resource wealth with which Alberta is blessed with, at some point in time there will be a reckoning as to who this bounty actually belong to. Does it belong to Alberta, to all Canadians or a little bit to both. I would choose the latter myself. Alberta therefore cannot simply collect it's marbles and walk away screaming about letting the "eastern bastards freeze in the dark". Cooperative federalism does not work this way.

For better or worse, that was definitively decided in the 1930s, no? Hence the national oil production/transportation debate that we badly need but cannot have.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

So if Alberta doesn’t provide any money to the equalization payment, safe to say every other province doesn’t provide any money? Question is then, where does the money come from?

Individual taxpayers in every single province in the country.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by wave46

I doubt the auto industry would have moved as north as it did without the incentive of having an inside track to our market.

IIRC, the auto industry moved north because of a tariff situation between Canada and the US. It became more economically feasible to develop Canadian subsidiaries of the US auto companies and to produce vehicles for the Canadian market within Canada. This all changed with the Auto Pact of 1965.

I'm sure there is a lot more to it than this, but this is my basic understanding.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

For better or worse, that was definitively decided in the 1930s, no? Hence the national oil production/transportation debate that we badly need but cannot have.

Can you elaborate?

It is a question that comes to my mind when I read about all this 'wexit' stuff. Don't all resources extracted from Canada belong to Canada? Aren't we all one country with each province being basically a district within the country?

Every time I hear that a province wants to separate from Canada I wonder how is that even possible - isn't this equivalent to a group of people wanting to 'steal' a portion of the country from Canada?

The concept seems very strange to me and flies against my vision of what I always thought being Canadian was about. I mean, we are one country, not a number of small countries who happen to be connected by some sort of agreement, like the EU...

I will admit that I am not familiar with how this plays out legally or constitutionally, so I am open to learn if somebody cares to explain...

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by misher

What’s happening to Alberta now though isn't 100% the world. Rather than receive Canada’s full support or at least ignorance Alberta is being persecuted
and it’s business hindered. It’s a lot easier to accept when it’s the world but a lot harder to accept when it’s your own government that you’ve been paying taxes to.

What part of the "persecution" involves using our tax dollars to purchase a pipeline, and ramming it through BC to the coast?

I'd love to be able to talk to Albetans using facts and data, but it's just not possible. It's emotional and irrational for them.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What part of the "persecution" involves using our tax dollars to purchase a pipeline, and ramming it through BC to the coast?

I'd love to be able to talk to Albetans using facts and data, but it's just not possible. It's emotional and irrational for them.

This is a curiosity to me as well. I personally thought it was a dumbass move to purchase a pipeline that the company who owned it did not think was viable enough to continue investing in it, and to accept all the liabilities attached. We are now married to this pipeline for decades to come.

Regardless, it was paid for by all Canadians to appease those who live in Alberta, yet these same Albertans are crying that nothing is being done for them. Perhaps they are right, because (this also goes along with my above post about who actually owns the resources) Canada is paying to get Canadian resources to the coast to sell to other nations, so maybe this is not being done for Alberta, it's being done for (or to) Canada. Maybe that's how it should be viewed... by everybody.

Although clearly the province of Alberta will benefit from it financially.

[Rollerstud98]

As will the ROC. Was not done to appease anybody in Alberta as nobody in Alberta asked for that to be done. Was a total fuck up by the federal liberals and was the only way they could save face.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I was simply responding to you and wave64 saying that Ontario is only so successful because of the federal government, and that it would just be an extension of the rust belt without it. These are pretty common claims and I decided to show you why they're an exaggeration at best. If you don't want an interprovincial pissing match, don't start one.

I never said this. We were talking about there being a drawback to Ontario leaving Canada. Admitting that there is a drawback isn't equivalent to claiming that Ontario is only successful because of the federal government. But I think it's pretty clearly more successful than it would have been as either just another US state or a strange semi-landlocked country next to a much larger neighbour. I don't think you'd have, say, the same proportion of North American air traffic connecting through Pearson if not for Canada, and I don't think that pattern would continue if Ontario left Canada.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

As will the ROC. Was not done to appease anybody in Alberta as nobody in Alberta asked for that to be done. Was a total fuck up by the federal liberals and was the only way they could save face.

Which part did the federal liberals fuck up? It was the environmental review fast-tracked by the HarperCons that led to challenges in court that were upheld by federal judges.

[TorontoDrew]

Conservatives when they don't win or get their way never offer suggestions or compromises. I know, lets bitch and say we want to separate. That's a great idea for an economy that will be based solely on a dwindling resource if they did vote to leave.

Images from : https://giphy.com/

Alberta


Saskatchewan


Quebec at Alberta and Sask


And The ROC




Every Albertan who cares more about Oil Sands then other Industries needs to read this.

Here’s How Canada’s Oil Sands Could Collapse by 2030

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/paabxk/heres-how-canadas-oil-sands-could-collapse-by-2030


Though I doubt any con or anybody in denial about the future will read the whole article.

Yet VICE spoke with two prominent economists—one in the US and one in Canada—who think we should take the prospect of an oil sands collapse very seriously. They think it could happen within the next decade. And there is little that anyone in Alberta, or Canada for that matter, can do to stop it.

They think the collapse could be set in motion by electric cars, self-driving technology, new business models for transportation and the international fight against climate change. They believe global oil demand will peak within the next few years. Oil prices will crash. High-cost sectors like the oil sands will shrivel while companies like Suncor and Exxon struggle to survive.

This will be financially devastating to the province of Alberta—as well as any other place on the planet that relies heavily on oil revenues. Alberta will lose a key source of income at the same time that it becomes liable for billions of dollars in ecological cleanup costs. Yet overall the Canadian economy will be fine. Oil is a small enough part of Canada's GDP that the country as a whole won't suffer catastrophic losses.