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  #181  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I don't know how old you are, but IMO we aren't even close to that level. The 90s were a very grim time. And even though then as now there are many opportunistic politicians eager to exploit the situation, the underlying economic state of the country was worse then, which added to the fog of doubt.
Yeah, today is nowhere near as bad as the 90s. On virtually any metric.

There is a lot of bitching at the moment but it's really more that people think things should be better than they are, and not really that they're really bad.

Even in Alberta (dare I say) things aren't really "bad". They're just not booming so to people used to boomtime, they appear bad.
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  #182  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 2:49 PM
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I don't know how old you are, but IMO we aren't even close to that level. The 90s were a very grim time. And even though then as now there are many opportunistic politicians eager to exploit the situation, the underlying economic state of the country was worse then, which added to the fog of doubt.
Are you certain of this?

The chinese economic miracle is grinding to a halt. They are pretty much the reason we prospered last decade and modern political concerns means it is very unlikely that we'll continue to do business with them.

We are trapped in over priced housing and a demographic collapse that is hitting areas out of of the top 6 metros very very hard.

Manufacturing is still born, commodities are likely gonna at all time lows.

The American/Canadian economy is likely on the verge of another great recession.

I can smell a sinking dollar and another southern brain drain.

We are crazy in debt and I'm relatively sure we're living on the fumes of a housing bubble.

We completely glided past the American housing bubble pop/Euro Crisis.

I can't see why there is any reason to believe that our national downturn isn't imminent.

The popularity of doug ford(outside Toronto) the return of the Bloc, and WEXIT, all signify that the golden years are over.
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  #183  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Yeah, today is nowhere near as bad as the 90s. On virtually any metric.

There is a lot of bitching at the moment but it's really more that people think things should be better than they are, and not really that they're really bad.

Even in Alberta (dare I say) things aren't really "bad". They're just not booming so to people used to boomtime, they appear bad.
Or the double digit interest rates of the 80's! One of the reasons why I got out of farming.
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  #184  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 3:01 PM
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Are you certain of this?

The chinese economic miracle is grinding to a halt. They are pretty much the reason we prospered last decade and modern political concerns means it is very unlikely that we'll continue to do business with them.

We are trapped in over priced housing and a demographic collapse that is hitting areas out of of the top 6 metros very very hard.

Manufacturing is still born, commodities are likely gonna at all time lows.

The American/Canadian economy is likely on the verge of another great recession.

I can smell a sinking dollar and another southern brain drain.

We are crazy in debt and I'm relatively sure we're living on the fumes of a housing bubble.

We completely glided past the American housing bubble pop/Euro Crisis.

I can't see why there is any reason to believe that our national downturn isn't imminent.

The popularity of doug ford(outside Toronto) the return of the Bloc, and WEXIT, all signify that the golden years are over.
You make the case for why it could get as bad as the late 80s/most of the 90s, but I am certain we are nowhere near that point. The 90s were a weird time, so much of the old economy had withered away but it wasn't yet clear to the man on the street where people were going to end up working. Unemployment was fairly high, social programs were on shaky ground, national unity was fraying, it was all very tumultuous.

It could certainly reach that point again - the 90s really weren't that bad by global standards, so it wouldn't take too much to get there. But I don't really see Canada being there yet.
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  #185  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
Or the double digit interest rates of the 80's! One of the reasons why I got out of farming.
The early 80s were quite bad as well, especially in Alberta in fact.
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  #186  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 3:05 PM
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The early 80s were quite bad as well, especially in Alberta in fact.
I think PET is to blame for (re)igniting the fire of Wexit...

By the way, has Alberta even voted red federally?
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  #187  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 3:15 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
You make the case for why it could get as bad as the late 80s/most of the 90s, but I am certain we are nowhere near that point. The 90s were a weird time, so much of the old economy had withered away but it wasn't yet clear to the man on the street where people were going to end up working. Unemployment was fairly high, social programs were on shaky ground, national unity was fraying, it was all very tumultuous.

It could certainly reach that point again - the 90s really weren't that bad by global standards, so it wouldn't take too much to get there. But I don't really see Canada being there yet.
This depends on what you mean by there.

My point is things are obviously regressing obviously it takes a long time to hit rock bottom and we won't know when that happens until years later.

I can imagine every year of the 2020s being far worst than the year before it.

The biggest issue is that we are far more vulnerable to intellectual capital flight than we were 30 years ago.

There is absolutely no need for regional offices etc in the modern world.

When all of your youth and talent are deeply entrenched in the cosmopolitan ethic it seems like we could loose the majority of talent in a small wave of American Visa reform combined with development of light rail transit.
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  #188  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 4:27 PM
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Yep but now we have two competing priorities. We have people saying shut it down its bad for the environment. And people saying be careful it won't last forever.

I think everyone in Alberta and Canada realizes the 2nd is true but thats the same for everything. In the end we might stop using cars or airplanes someday. We might stop using shoes or eating plants or meat someday. In the end I think only the most wildest predictions would say the demand for oil will stop in the next 30 years. While Alberta should diversify (and it appears to be doing so), I don't see a big need to "rush" this.
I think "stop expanding output" is a reasonable argument to make today. We are already all-in on TMX, which is beyond "stop expanding output". Alberta wants to turn it up to 11 which is irresponsible and insane.
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  #189  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 4:28 PM
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If you look at maps of North America there are better areas for wind and solar power in the US plus probably better tax incentives in California.
And they are building a ton of wind and solar. What's your point? We should buy from them instead of building our own?
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  #190  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
What did I say that was wrong? Absolutely nothing.

Perhaps if you would stop peddling outright lies you'd see why the west feels fucked over. How many times do we have to post evidence that the world is not moving away from oil before you stop claiming it is? Instead of worrying about my mental state you should worry about your own.
BC is doing fine thanks. Keep your triggered outrage inside your provincial borders.
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  #191  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LakeLocker View Post
All I've gotten from reading this shit thread is that the Canadian economy is doing far worst than I ever imagined.

Vancouver-Toronto have turned into nothing but elitist hell holes reliant on foreign money to keep their over heated housing markets afloat.

The rest of the country is suffering through economic decline and a whole lot of population graying.

There was a certain degree of smug radiating from Canadians just 6 years ago and now I feel like we're clearly at the end of something. It must just be that I'm bummed out with an early winter, or that even in Hockey this country is falling apart.

Hockey enrollment is collapsing, Canadians are decreasing in the NHL draft, most of our Canadian teams are under performing and the Leafs market share of Toronto is rapidly decreasing as the Raptors are superseding their dominance of the market. The senators are on the verge of relocating, Winnipeg is started to loose its new car smell and Calgary can't get an arena?

I feel like were going back to the level of pessimism affecting Canadians in the early 90s.
WTF are you babbling about Don Cherry? Take your "economy is failing" lies and shove them.

Unemployment is at near record lows. THE FUCKING END.
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  #192  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 4:56 PM
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BC is doing fine thanks. Keep your triggered outrage inside your provincial borders.
BC has10’s of billions invested into oil & gas. Plus coastal territories always do better that’s why most major cities are by the water.

BC relies heavily on education, real estate, and public employment which keeps our unemployment low. With massive projects like LNG, Site C, the tunnel, the skytrain extensions, etc. over the next 5-10 years I don’t see unemployment being a large issue until after all the projects are complete. However, recent anti-foreign initiatives plus a massive amount of tedious government bureaucracy and regulation are hurting our economy and we’re relying on our success and wealth to balance this out. If we start becoming unsuccessful or the world economy goes into a recession I suspect we may be screwed. A province that loves weed regulated the weed industry into a recession, that kind of demonstrates just how inefficient we are.

Last edited by misher; Nov 13, 2019 at 5:06 PM.
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  #193  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 4:57 PM
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That investment surge has little to do with their previous economic raison d'etre, though. Alberta will have a renaissance in the later half of the century, sure, but it won't be oil related. Thunder Bay is slowly rebounding and it has nothing to do with trees.



Because there are more plentiful and cheaper sources of oil, and when demand contracts, it will be the more expensive (ie, oil sands) sources of oil that stop getting purchased first. Canada has the least convenient form of oil. There is a limited future for it.

Thunder Bay has 17 grain elevators on its waterfront. 8 are abandoned and 4 are mothballed. But Canadian grain exports are reaching record numbers, and it's largely because of where the grain is going. This will happen to oil, but the issue will be less where the oil goes, and more where it comes from. And it won't come from us, no matter how many pipelines we build.

I know it feels good to talk about this as if there's actually a future there, but my city did this through most of the 1990s and we ended up going nowhere as a result of it.

Thunder Bay has lots of solar farms. We get a lot of sun, even in the winter. Sure, they're not as productive as those in the desert, but they're more productive than any built further east. It's not employing a lot of people (neither is the wind farm), and the decline in industry in general means our coal plant is useless (we barely use enough energy to keep our hydro dams operating, let alone a coal plant). But these are the spin-offs of economic depression once your commodity based economy loses is value along with that commodity.

Another thing that we've learned the hard way is that the kinds of jobs where you can walk out of high school and into a well paying resource/manufacturing position are coming to an end. Our way of life was built on that, a lot of kids in the 1970s and 80s were raised with this mentality of "when you graduate, you'll come work at the elevator/mill/CanCar with your dad"; as those kids were graduating, the elevators, mills, and CanCar were closing down and contracting.

Flying around this region in a bush plane in the 1960s, anyone would have thought the forestry sector would thrive forever. For a period of time 100 years ago, this city was larger than anything in Alberta, and saw itself as the next Chicago, which itself had grown from nothing to a million people during a generation—a 19th century Dubai.

No one told us in the 1980s that forestry and the grain exports would disappear within a decade and lead to regional economic depression and numerous ghost towns. And looking at how Alberta is reacting to similar news, I don't think it would have mattered much. But fortunately for most of Canada, when Northern Ontario's economy collapsed, it didn't destroy the country. But Alberta? You guys are leading us down a really rough path, and complaining that we won't let you run any faster.
Well said - I think your post pretty much nails it.
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  #194  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 4:59 PM
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BC has10’s of billions invested into oil & gas. Plus coastal territories always do better that’s why most major cities are by the water.
We're talking about Wexit. BC has zero interest.
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  #195  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 9:35 PM
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Originally Posted by misher View Post
BC has10’s of billions invested into oil & gas. Plus coastal territories always do better that’s why most major cities are by the water.

BC relies heavily on education, real estate, and public employment which keeps our unemployment low. With massive projects like LNG, Site C, the tunnel, the skytrain extensions, etc. over the next 5-10 years I don’t see unemployment being a large issue until after all the projects are complete. However, recent anti-foreign initiatives plus a massive amount of tedious government bureaucracy and regulation are hurting our economy and we’re relying on our success and wealth to balance this out. If we start becoming unsuccessful or the world economy goes into a recession I suspect we may be screwed. A province that loves weed regulated the weed industry into a recession, that kind of demonstrates just how inefficient we are.
Can't forget Coal... remember, Vancouver is the largest exporting port for coal in North America for both thermal and metallurgical, enabling China to continue to rely on coal fired power plants.

Also, BC relies quite heavily on tourism as well, no?
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  #196  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 9:45 PM
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We're talking about Wexit. BC has zero interest.
Vancouver has 0 interest*

By land area and # of cities the majority of BC voted blue and there is a lot of support for Wexit due to how disenfranchised many of us feel. The opinion of Vancouver does not equal BC and the ruling party of BC did not obtain the majority vote. I have many friends who have brought it up and funnily enough an old university group partner and I began discussing it on facebook.

Western alienation does exist and exists everywhere from West Ontario to BC. Its not something you can just dismiss. We feel that our way of life is under attack and that our opinions are being trampled upon. There is a difference between people opposing what someone else is doing and people opposing what someone else is forcing them to do. When you enforce policies on people that they don't want you are going to get backlash. In a democratic system the opinion of everyone matters and governments are supposed to represent everyone, not just the ones who voted for them. As you can see below most of BC did not vote for the ruling government and should Wexit happen and the Canadian West be divided according to who voted blue, the West would have a route to the Pacific.

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  #197  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 9:45 PM
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BC is doing fine thanks. Keep your triggered outrage inside your provincial borders.
Don't assign your stupid labels to me and stop speaking for your entire province. Your fake outrage isn't fooling anyone.
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  #198  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 9:52 PM
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WTF are you babbling about Don Cherry? Take your "economy is failing" lies and shove them.

Unemployment is at near record lows. THE FUCKING END.
LOL! Low unemployment rates do not equal a strong economy.
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  #199  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 9:53 PM
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We're talking about Wexit. BC has zero interest.
Sure!
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  #200  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2019, 9:53 PM
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LOL! Low unemployment rates do not equal a strong economy.
Especially when employment is coming from part-time, service industry, and government jobs.
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