DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by laniroj

RTD's prices are a joke and if not the highest, among the highest in the country. While there's no science or data behind it, I believe that's a main reason for their ridership issues. As they dig their heels in for a poorly planned system, they raise prices to maintain revenue. Local planning hasn't done a damn thing to help them though.

Regarding ride shares, until a better alternative comes along people will continue utilizing ride share services. I,

Fares coupled with shitty service are likely the two biggest drivers. Let's also remember that RTD has bent over backwards to accommodate two groups over the last few years: the disabled and the poor. From removing 10% of the seats on light rail cars and almost banning strollers to implementing a discount fare program which was the primary driver for the large fare increase last year. A discount program which has issued ~1,500 passes since July. Apparently the advocates like 9to5 are really f**king shitty at getting the word out to sign people up for a program that most people took it up the ass to fund.

RTD isn't a transit agency for the metro area, it's a mobility provider of last resort. That's the Boards' mindset.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by laniroj

RTD's prices are a joke and if not the highest, among the highest in the country.

Do you ever buy anything on sale or do you go into the store and say, "No, I want to pay the 'retail' price before the discount."

According to RTD last year they had 97.6 million boardings. RTD also reported $143 million in revenue (against $777 million in operating expenses for a cool subsidy of $634 million).

The amount RTD collected per boarding was an average of $1.47 per rider.

Originally Posted by laniroj

While there's no science or data behind it, I believe that's a main reason for their ridership issues. As they dig their heels in for a poorly planned system, they raise prices to maintain revenue.

As PLANSIT points out, the fare increase(s) were to accommodate what wong nicely describes.

But there's plenty of data; after RTD's fare increase in January:

• 1st quarter bus ridership was up 11%
• 1st quarter light rail ridership was down 11%
• 1st quarter commuter rail was up 4%

After the 2nd quarter when light rail started to bounce back, the year-to-date numbers:

• Bus ridership up 8.5%
• Light rail ridership down 6.7%
• Commuter rail was up over 17%

Total RTD ridership for all modes after two quarters was 48.5 million (trips) while in 2018 after two quarters total ridership was 49.0 million.

Just a guess that by the end of the year total ridership will equal 2018 or even surpass it by a little.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

RTD isn't a transit agency for the metro area, it's a mobility provider of last resort. That's the Boards' mindset.

That's an excellent point that deserves amplification.

Historically, the conventional wisdom was that in large and (very) dense cities transit would provide cheap access for all 'the Poor's' who lived in 'tenement' housing and needed access to Manhattan, for example.

Denver has never been more than a low to moderate density area. Go back 20 years or more and what was unique about downtown Denver was the out-sized number or percentage of government jobs when you include federal, state and city. Government jobs certainly have their benefits but high-pay is not normally one of them. RTD served as a good cheap way to get downtown to one's job.

But a lot has changed in the last 20 to 30 years. Downtown Denver is evolving into a place with crazy good density. Problems is The Poor's have been kicked to the curb in the suburbs. Given that the Poor's generally work in retail, service and blue collar jobs Big Bertha bus-routes have little value for most of them.

Almost all of the 'working poor' have mobile phones. In Phoenix I even notice homeless people on their phones. Oftentimes, the 'working poor' are more conscientious about getting to work on time so they drive cars, ride with friends, (only) occasionally use ride-share and if they are one of the lucky ones who can take advantage of transit they will; but that's the exception. A $3, a $5 or even $15 bus ride is not the issue; getting to where they need to go (and on time) is the problem.

As for all the new jobs and residents downtown the tech-bros often prefer to NOT ride the bus.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by laniroj

#1 - within a half mile of each of Lone Tree's existing stations, there is an abundance of housing, office, medical, and yes, even retail and hotels. It's by far the most diverse stop in our system, at the moment. 38th/Blake is coming, the downtown Aurora will one day build out similarly, and the Stapleton station should get there in the next decade. Belleview Station has the potential for some of the LT components and much closer to the station, but missing medical.

#2 - Have you seen the plans for the Lone Tree east of I25? If notIt's like an urban planner's dream if it comes to fruition as envisioned. Incredible density relative to it's suburban location and a good mix of uses. There's nothing wrong IMO with greenfield sprawl like Lone Tree IF those areas are keeping workers and people in that area and not forcing them to drive everywhere. If sprawl has to happen (and it will) this is what it should look like. Greenbelts are a great idea as well to protect urban areas from combining into a massive super city a la DC to NYC, but only if density is provided for within the confines of the greenbelt.

https://ridgegate.com/

I'm curious to see how that Lone Tree development turns out. The land over there is very hilly, which could make it more interesting than other urban developments.

On the negative side, I work in LT and live in Stapleton. Traffic is horrendous already getting down there. Yeah, I've taken the R line to work and it's a failure. Well, the northern end is a failure in Aurora. South of the Florida station, it's fast and runs as it should but it takes about an hour and 15 min. for me door to door, and costs $6. In heavy traffic, I can do it in 50 minutes and only costs me $2 round trip in gas. I can see I25 being gridlock southbound in the morning from 225 south, which it isn't today.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by COtoOC

I'm curious to see how that Lone Tree development turns out. The land over there is very hilly, which could make it more interesting than other urban developments.

On the negative side, I work in LT and live in Stapleton. Traffic is horrendous already getting down there. Yeah, I've taken the R line to work and it's a failure. Well, the northern end is a failure in Aurora. South of the Florida station, it's fast and runs as it should but it takes about an hour and 15 min. for me door to door, and costs $6. In heavy traffic, I can do it in 50 minutes and only costs me $2 round trip in gas. I can see I25 being gridlock southbound in the morning from 225 south, which it isn't today.

That's interesting. The R Line should have been routed along I-225 for better speed and if Aurora wanted the "city center shuttle" that should have been separate and Aurora should have had to pay for a good portion of the cost.

The R Line should actually run from the Belleview Station then along I-225 up to Peoria Station.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

Ryan, do you know if the trains in Chicago is a PPP or purely publicly funded? Could this be the source of the problem...?

The blue line is not a PPP. And that is not at all the source of the problem. The A Line is RTD’s most reliable. It’s just that criticizing RTD has become a hobby for many of us. So much so, the details no longer matter.

[bulldurhamer]

Originally Posted by laniroj

RTD's prices are a joke and if not the highest, among the highest in the country. While there's no science or data behind it, I believe that's a main reason for their ridership issues. As they dig their heels in for a poorly planned system, they raise prices to maintain revenue. Local planning hasn't done a damn thing to help them though.

Regarding ride shares, until a better alternative comes along people will continue utilizing ride share services. I,

yeah, uber makes plenty of sense for consumers. unfortunately it's robbing every other mode in the system by playing with a different playing field. rtd has to pay their employees. uber really doesn't. it's a labor isssue along with just being a disaster for any other option out there.

again, until we make uber pay their fair share, rtd will never be able to become the best option.

[TakeFive]

Confluence Cos makes Sunnyside relevant with both condos and apartments

Project Snapshot: Zia Sunnyside
November 12, 2019 By Thomas Gounley - BusinessDen

Sunnyside hasn’t seen scale like this before. At the neighborhood’s eastern edge, along the railroad tracks, single-family homes have historically given way to small industrial tenants. But now, there’s a construction site that spans an entire block. Dubbed Zia Sunnyside, the two-building project ranges from between six and eight stories, and is set to include a mix of condos and apartments, some of which are income-restricted.

All photos by Thomas Gounley via BusinessDen




...

The finished product:


Courtesy Confluence/Craine Architecture

Due Date: Spring of 2020

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

That's interesting. The R Line should have been routed along I-225 for better speed and if Aurora wanted the "city center shuttle" that should have been separate and Aurora should have had to pay for a good portion of the cost.

The R Line should actually run from the Belleview Station then along I-225 up to Peoria Station.

Yeah, exactly. It takes forever to wind around Anschutz, makes stops where 1 or 2 people get on/off, crawls under the freeway, stops again for nobody, twice, then crawls around the Aurora mall. That's what makes it all so useless for me. I only take it if there's snow and need to be in the office. Then it actually saves me time, and no threat of getting in a wreck.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by TakeFive;

[U

But there's plenty of data; after RTD's fare increase in January:[/U]

• 1st quarter bus ridership was up 11%
• 1st quarter light rail ridership was down 11%
• 1st quarter commuter rail was up 4%

After the 2nd quarter when light rail started to bounce back, the year-to-date numbers:

• Bus ridership up 8.5%
• Light rail ridership down 6.7%
• Commuter rail was up over 17%

Total RTD ridership for all modes after two quarters was 48.5 million (trips) while in 2018 after two quarters total ridership was 49.0 million.

Just a guess that by the end of the year total ridership will equal 2018 or even surpass it by a little.

Your comments and mine have strange timing.

https://www.denverpost.com/2019/11/12/rtd-fares-regional-n-line/

Apparently RTD sees the ridership issue too.

https://www.denverpost.com/2019/11/12/rtd-fares-regional-n-line/

You're comparing terrible numbers through percentage increases, it's not super relevant. What RTD should be doing is lobby every damn municipality their trains run through and convincing them that hundreds of thousands of housing units need to be built adjacent to their tracks. Does RTD do that? I'm guessing not because why would the G ever sell their own product sensibly?!

Perhaps all the people angry with growth in Colorado will just get so frustrated they leave, paving the way for the density we need to make the transit system a worthwhile investment, among other important reasons.

[TakeFive]

This is wrong-headed IMO

RTD will lower its fares when the regional N Line to Thornton opens next year in a pilot to boost sagging ridership.
For those of you who are subscribers; the headline was enough for me.

What RTD should do if it wants to promote better ridership is follow the lead of what other agencies have tried specifically SANDAG in San Diego.


Commuters use the Green Line. Photo via Wikimedia Commons

Free Ride Day | San Diego Metropolitan Transit System

On October 2nd we're opening up our whole system again to show how MTS can change the way San Diego moves.

That's right - on October 2 all fixed route MTS buses and all three Trolley lines will be TOTALLY FREE* to ride. That includes our non-stop Rapid Express services from the I-15 to downtown - Rapid Express 280 (Escondido to downtown), Rapid Express 290 (Rancho Bernardo to downtown) - plus the newest limited-stop Rapid route from Otay Mesa and east Chula Vista to downtown - Rapid 225.

This year, Free Ride Day is also California's Clean Air Day, so when you choose transit October 2, you're helping to keep the Golden State golden.

This is not the first time MTS has done this. I recall their having great success a year ago.

Trips on MTS Buses and Trolleys Spike by 47,000 on ‘Free Ride Day’
OCTOBER 4, 2018 BY CHRIS JENNEWEIN - Times of San Diego

The Metropolitan Transit System recorded 47,000 additional trips — a 15 percent increase — during the “Free Ride Day” on Tuesday.

Trolley ridership was up by 19 percent, and MTS bus ridership by 12 percent. The Sycuan Green Line had the biggest jump in the system, increasing by 37 percent or 13,000 extra passenger trips over the same day last year.

FYI, in San Diego they call their light rail "Trolleys."

With respect to light/commuter rail, why not pick a month (say June) and make every Friday "Free Ride to Work Day". The idea is obviously to get new people to try the system, what it's like to use a Park N Ride or other means to get to the station and then reinforce the promotion.

[TakeFive]

RTD isn't as bad as some may think.

Originally Posted by laniroj

You're comparing terrible numbers through percentage increases, it's not super relevant.

Houston rebuilt its bus network from scratch in August of 2015 and enjoyed a nice bump in ridership as a result. Subsequently, the 5th largest MSA with seven million people now equals RTD's ridership which is the 19th largest MSA with three million people.

Originally Posted by laniroj

What RTD should be doing is lobby every damn municipality their trains run through and convincing them that hundreds of thousands of housing units need to be built adjacent to their tracks. Does RTD do that? I'm guessing not because why would the G ever sell their own product sensibly?!

I appreciate your frustration but you're preaching to the choir on this site. Plus you're thinking ahead three decades which is fine.

Prior to and in conjunction with the FasTracks vote and implementation most cities including specifically Denver, Lakewood, Arvada and Aurora did do extensive planning along with RTD for future TOD. Planning and good intentions, unfortunately aren't the same as doing.

My issues go to RTD being dysfunctional due to an outdated system and thinking as wong alluded to but that's another topic better discussed on the Transportation thread.

[jbssfelix]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Free Ride Day | San Diego Metropolitan Transit System

This is not the first time MTS has done this. I recall their having great success a year ago.

Trips on MTS Buses and Trolleys Spike by 47,000 on ‘Free Ride Day’
OCTOBER 4, 2018 BY CHRIS JENNEWEIN - Times of San Diego

FYI, in San Diego they call their light rail "Trolleys."

With respect to light/commuter rail, why not pick a month (say June) and make every Friday "Free Ride to Work Day". The idea is obviously to get new people to try the system, what it's like to use a Park N Ride or other means to get to the station and then reinforce the promotion.

Indianapolis is currently doing this with their new Red Line BRT line. Get people to "try before you buy", get them hooked on the efficiency of it, then they'll find justification to give $$ toward it in the future.

[DenvertoLA]

That Ridge Gate video makes me want to puke

There is nothing sustainable about sprawl no matter how they spin it. I grew up in Parker in the 2000s. Glad I got out of there.


Colorado needs some land use reform IMO

[The Dirt]

That's a shit ton of greenfield land behind gobbled up for only 8k new homes. The 350 affordable homes is plain laughable. Also, office campuses on the periphery? Welcome to early 90s planning.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

That Ridge Gate video makes me want to puke

There is nothing sustainable about sprawl no matter how they spin it. I grew up in Parker in the 2000s. Glad I got out of there.

I suspect that sustainability means different things to different people. They do include a ton of open space. It may be that an overview video leaves out a lot of detail that will become more apparent over time. They got a nice start when Kiewitt chose Lone Tree for their new regional campus being designed by Stantec. The 400 acre City Center SE of I-25 and Lincoln will be the densest area and will be surrounded by three mixed-use mixed density villages.

That said, it's a suburban approach to mixed-use and mixed density which may not be to your taste.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

I really didn't see anything in that Ridgegate video that seemed to suggest that it would be sprawling like Parker or Highlands Ranch. Rather, I saw a Cherry Creek North-sized mixed used area built around the Lone Tree City Center light rail stop. Lone Tree is still a suburb so you are going to see more low to moderate density housing than you would see in Denver. Plus, Lone Tree has a free shuttle service that would further connect the different office campuses and housing villages. I don't think it's bad for a suburb.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

That said, it's a suburban approach to mixed-use and mixed density which may not be to your taste.

Spot on. The issue is that many people still prefer the suburbs and sprawl WILL occur no matter how much some of us don't want it to - we can't just become mother russia and say, "no you can't do this". So, if it's going to sprawl, it might as well have as much density as possible with employment centers and neighborhood amenities as close to the density as possible. Think if DTC had this kind of density instead of mcmansions surrounding it, that would take a whole lotta cars off the roads.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Spot on. The issue is that many people still prefer the suburbs and sprawl WILL occur no matter how much some of us don't want it to - we can't just become mother russia and say, "no you can't do this". So, if it's going to sprawl, it might as well have as much density as possible with employment centers and neighborhood amenities as close to the density as possible. Think if DTC had this kind of density instead of mcmansions surrounding it, that would take a whole lotta cars off the roads.

Right. Lone Tree is doing their part to take cars off the road. Beyond explicitly mentioning that as a goal on Ridge Gate's website, they forked over A LOT of money to get those light rail extensions. Some people might be mad that 25% of the SE area is being preserved for natural uses but I think that is a fair exchange to the extent that it enhances the desirability of the area and results in 30,000 more people actually moving there.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Spot on. The issue is that many people still prefer the suburbs and sprawl WILL occur no matter how much some of us don't want it to - we can't just become mother russia and say, "no you can't do this". So, if it's going to sprawl, it might as well have as much density as possible with employment centers and neighborhood amenities as close to the density as possible. Think if DTC had this kind of density instead of mcmansions surrounding it, that would take a whole lotta cars off the roads.

Sure you can. Growth boundaries mandated at the state level. It's common in the US.