PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Radio5

I know it's probably a money thing, but seems silly to leave that gap bwtn Walnut and Dock in this phase. Does anyone know if they at least intend to cap the rest of this, like from Market to South st?

This RFP is great. I sincerely hope to see the park cap extended with buildings from Chestnut to Market and Walnut to Dock. This time by the private sector or in partnership. I believe those stretches pose additional engineering challenges. South of Dock down to South Street is probably even a longer horizon.

[hammersklavier]

AFAIK the cap was its own project. In terms of engineering challenges there isn't much different between the proposed Park at Penn's Landing and other potential caps. That said, I disagree intensely with this notion that the rest of 95 should be capped with greenspace: I think that, between the Park at Penn's Landing and the park space between the Society Hill Towers and Spruce Street Harbor Park, there is more than enough greenspace in the area. Rather, I think it would be better for PennDOT to release developable parcels along 95 from just north of Market, say, down to just south of South. With surface lots in the area being quite rare, having available parcels like these available on the market can help increase development in some of the city's most expensive neighborhoods (although it is fair to point out that overbuilds are extremely expensive, especially over rights-of-way in active use).

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

AFAIK the cap was its own project. In terms of engineering challenges there isn't much different between the proposed Park at Penn's Landing and other potential caps. That said, I disagree intensely with this notion that the rest of 95 should be capped with greenspace: I think that, between the Park at Penn's Landing and the park space between the Society Hill Towers and Spruce Street Harbor Park, there is more than enough greenspace in the area. Rather, I think it would be better for PennDOT to release developable parcels along 95 from just north of Market, say, down to just south of South. With surface lots in the area being quite rare, having available parcels like these available on the market can help increase development in some of the city's most expensive neighborhoods (although it is fair to point out that overbuilds are extremely expensive, especially over rights-of-way in active use).

Is anyone actually saying the rest of the 95 cap should be additional park?

[iheartphilly]

Current and projected stats:

https://ccorpinsights.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/CCORP19Q3_MarketOverview-Philadelphia.pdf

What do you all think?

[Milksteak]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Current and projected stats:

https://ccorpinsights.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/CCORP19Q3_MarketOverview-Philadelphia.pdf

What do you all think?

Interesting. The market has been hot for a long time, so I would expect a bit of a cool down as indicated in the charts. That being said, I think it's more dependent on the overall economy (which I also feel is due for a cool down). We have had an amazing run with tons of construction around almost every area of the city and suburbs....who knows though, with Philly starting to gain more and more traction in med device, gene therapy and fintech, this could be just the beginning....

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Milksteak

Interesting. The market has been hot for a long time, so I would expect a bit of a cool down as indicated in the charts. That being said, I think it's more dependent on the overall economy (which I also feel is due for a cool down). We have had an amazing run with tons of construction around almost every area of the city and suburbs....who knows though, with Philly starting to gain more and more traction in med device, gene therapy and fintech, this could be just the beginning....

Ditto, I feel the same. In addition the 2001 Beach project seems like a fantasy project with all those units. I was surprise they counted it.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Ditto, I feel the same. In addition the 2001 Beach project seems like a fantasy project with all those units. I was surprise they counted it.

Speaking of which, Design Advocacy Group has weighed in on that one and they are not amused.

It may be legal, but it’s a crime | DesignAdvocacy.org

Excerpt:
The proposal presented by the Bethesda, Md.-based Concordia Group, Philadelphia’s D3 Real Estate Development, and the Resmark Companies of Los Angeles is for a cluster of stumpy apartment buildings and hundreds of rowhouses inelegantly packed on 13 narrow, private greens with car access to private garages on dead-end cul-de sacs. This “neighborhood” will only be reachable from the rest of the city by two automobile-oriented roadways, with public access to the waterfront limited to a narrow riverside trail, fenced off from the new residential area. Inhabitants will have their own, private river walk, inside the fence. The public trail will dead end at the south boundary of the site until “something” happens there.

The proposed rowhouses are handsome contemporary designs, but their arrangement on the site is inept. Astonishingly, none of these tall, four-story houses is oriented to face the river, which can only be glimpsed by craning one’s neck to look down one of the 20-foot wide alleys or 38-foot “fingers” of lawn that alternately lead to the water. And half of those narrow passages are bent—denying even a glimpse of the Delaware.

[snip]

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Ditto, I feel the same. In addition the 2001 Beach project seems like a fantasy project with all those units. I was surprise they counted it.

If what I've read is true (from multiple sources), there are over 100K job openings in Philadelphia. Obviously, employers are having trouble finding talent, but even if only a fraction of those jobs were filled and half of those people lived in the city, that's enough people to re-populate 2 or 3 re-gentrifying neighborhoods.

The thing I think is interesting about the Beach Street project that makes it feasible for me is that there is no new construction project in or near Center City that offers new construction townhomes in a sizeable chunk for what might be less then luxury (i.e. attainable) for a two income professional household.

My guess is that if the units are priced in the $400k-$600K range, they'll sell like hot cakes. If there are condos starting below $300K, you won't be able to touch them.

The last project I can think of that had a sizeable number of units in a good location for not extreme prices was 400 Reed Street in Pennsport. That had over 100 units and it sold out in essentially a year. It probably could have gone faster if they were able to build it faster.

This also explains why the units on Lehigh Avenue are selling so fast. There is appetite for new housing in a "development". Some people like the idea of moving in when everyone else does, as it creates a sort of appetite for community and getting to know your new neighbors as everyone is new.

When you're the one new guy on the block, people barely notice you exist.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

If what I've read is true (from multiple sources), there are over 100K job openings in Philadelphia. Obviously, employers are having trouble finding talent, but even if only a fraction of those jobs were filled and half of those people lived in the city, that's enough people to re-populate 2 or 3 re-gentrifying neighborhoods.

The thing I think is interesting about the Beach Street project that makes it feasible for me is that there is no new construction project in or near Center City that offers new construction townhomes in a sizeable chunk for what might be less then luxury (i.e. attainable) for a two income professional household.

My guess is that if the units are priced in the $400k-$600K range, they'll sell like hot cakes. If there are condos starting below $300K, you won't be able to touch them.

The last project I can think of that had a sizeable number of units in a good location for not extreme prices was 400 Reed Street in Pennsport. That had over 100 units and it sold out in essentially a year. It probably could have gone faster if they were able to build it faster.

This also explains why the units on Lehigh Avenue are selling so fast. There is appetite for new housing in a "development". Some people like the idea of moving in when everyone else does, as it creates a sort of appetite for community and getting to know your new neighbors as everyone is new.

When you're the one new guy on the block, people barely notice you exist.

I'm very skeptical of 100k job vacancies in Philly. Curious what industries in Philly are really in need of these many people. I think the databases need purging and updating. Anyways, I found this:

https://www.indeed.com/l-Philadelphia,-PA-jobs.html

Says over 18k jobs in Philadelphia. Can break it down to salary ranges to match the price units you said to give an idea if the salary can afford those homes. All estimates of course since everyone's financial picture is different.

Anyways, I'm not a fan of the Beach project due to the row house style homes. Would rather see low, mid, or even highrise and more green space on the river for the homeowners/renters.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

I'm very skeptical of 100k job vacancies in Philly. Curious what industries in Philly are really in need of these many people. I think the databases need purging and updating. Anyways, I found this:

https://www.indeed.com/l-Philadelphia,-PA-jobs.html

Says over 18k jobs in Philadelphia. Can break it down to salary ranges to match the price units you said to give an idea if the salary can afford those homes. All estimates of course since everyone's financial picture is different.

Anyways, I'm not a fan of the Beach project due to the row house style homes. Would rather see low, mid, or even highrise and more green space on the river for the homeowners/renters.

I don't disagree, but financing multi-family buildings is much different than financing rowhomes, and as such, would make the project much more risky/unlikely to happen.

Rowhomes can be financed incrementally as they're sold, whereas for large buildings, you either have to upfront the money for construction in advance until leasing can begin, or you have to procure sales contracts for usually 50% of the project before funds can be released.

I suspect they settled on the configuration to balance those risks/idiosyncracies.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

Speaking of which, Design Advocacy Group has weighed in on that one and they are not amused.

It may be legal, but it’s a crime | DesignAdvocacy.org

Excerpt:
The proposal presented by the Bethesda, Md.-based Concordia Group, Philadelphia’s D3 Real Estate Development, and the Resmark Companies of Los Angeles is for a cluster of stumpy apartment buildings and hundreds of rowhouses inelegantly packed on 13 narrow, private greens with car access to private garages on dead-end cul-de sacs. This “neighborhood” will only be reachable from the rest of the city by two automobile-oriented roadways, with public access to the waterfront limited to a narrow riverside trail, fenced off from the new residential area. Inhabitants will have their own, private river walk, inside the fence. The public trail will dead end at the south boundary of the site until “something” happens there.

The proposed rowhouses are handsome contemporary designs, but their arrangement on the site is inept. Astonishingly, none of these tall, four-story houses is oriented to face the river, which can only be glimpsed by craning one’s neck to look down one of the 20-foot wide alleys or 38-foot “fingers” of lawn that alternately lead to the water. And half of those narrow passages are bent—denying even a glimpse of the Delaware.

[snip]

To be honest, I think DAG's critique seriously misses the mark here. Several of the complaints DAG levels (complaining that the site access is on wide, autocentric roads, or that the public riverfront path ends at the site line) are outside of the developer's control altogether and would be better directed at the City. Nor does their orientation argument really hold water for me; in fact, I think the lawns maximize riverfront access (though at the cost of river views), by making it easy for a resident to walk out of their door and down to the water. The site plan also reveals a public community center and multiple retail pads facing the "Main Street", so where are they getting this gated community idea from?

Though, to be honest, DAG's gated-community hysteria, which, again, seems unfounded in the released documentation, does make me worried that they'll fence this site off from the river, which would be silly in the extreme. There are also a couple of issues present in the site plan, such as the way the inner drive meets Beach Street, that could be better handled, but, as I already mentioned, DAG threw an unfounded hysterical fit that absolutely ignored what is, in the details, perhaps an optimal site plan for a large but somewhat difficult parcel to work with.

[acenturi]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

...................

I HATE IT, reminds me of a Prison. That design belongs in New Jersey. Isn't this the site of the defunct Wynn Casino proposal ?

[summersm343]

Piazza Terminal - NoLibs

Do we have a thread for this? Two of the buildings are 12 floors. If we don't have a thread, then McGrath, can you make one?

Architects website:
https://bkvgroup.com/project/piazza-terminal/

Recent Inky article on it:
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/com...rn-liberties-post-brothers-20191101.html

[bigfish]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Piazza Terminal - NoLibs

Do we have a thread for this? Two of the buildings are 12 floors. If we don't have a thread, then McGrath, can you make one?

Architects website:
https://bkvgroup.com/project/piazza-terminal/

Recent Inky article on it:
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/com...rn-liberties-post-brothers-20191101.html

When are they breaking ground on this? I feel like it has been in the talks forever.

[SEFTA]

With this news, I doubt there will be much left of the original plan. I fear it will be stripped of all amenities that made a good project.

"Developer Bart Blatstein slashes apartment count at planned sequel to Piazza in Northern Liberties"
"Blatstein was granted a zoning permit this week to cut the number of apartments at the Second Street and Germantown Avenue proposal by 330 units, for a new total of 861.
That’s more than a quarter fewer than planned when Blatstein first proposed what he’s calling Piazza Terminal at a 4.4-acre lot south of the Shops at Schmidt’s retail building in February."

Piazza Terminal -Brewerytown Development -Bart Blatstein 5

Originally Posted by summersm343

Piazza Terminal - NoLibs
[url]
Recent Inky article on it:
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/com...rn-liberties-post-brothers-20191101.html

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Piazza Terminal - NoLibs

Do we have a thread for this? Two of the buildings are 12 floors. If we don't have a thread, then McGrath, can you make one?

Architects website:
https://bkvgroup.com/project/piazza-terminal/

Recent Inky article on it:
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/com...rn-liberties-post-brothers-20191101.html

As you command:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=8739461#post8739461

[mcgrath618]

I should mention: I was told by a friend today that tenants are being kicked out of the International House. Not sure if they're renovating it or demolishing it or what.

[New2Fishtown]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

With this news, I doubt there will be much left of the original plan. I fear it will be stripped of all amenities that made a good project.

"Developer Bart Blatstein slashes apartment count at planned sequel to Piazza in Northern Liberties"
"Blatstein was granted a zoning permit this week to cut the number of apartments at the Second Street and Germantown Avenue proposal by 330 units, for a new total of 861.
That’s more than a quarter fewer than planned when Blatstein first proposed what he’s calling Piazza Terminal at a 4.4-acre lot south of the Shops at Schmidt’s retail building in February."

Piazza Terminal -Brewerytown Development -Bart Blatstein 5

861 is still a LOT of units (more at once than any project completed or proposed in the city right now outside of the Beach Street thing which is in no way comparable). East Market's two buildings together are somewhere in the 500's. It's also more than the existing total in the Piazza's first phases, so i think it brings more than enough additional density and life to ensure that it becomes a more dynamic location. I think the elimination of the pool is maybe more about the fact that there's a fancy pool complex going into the existing Piazza courtyard (I know it's different ownership, but maybe they'd offer memberships across the whole complex?). I'm actually encouraged by the language I've seen (though I wish there were visuals to match) about how they're forcing the focus onto the streets, and making Germantown into a shared street (or "woonerf" as they're called in Copenhagen). I'd rather they move forward with 861 units and get it done than sit around talking about 1,200 units and never doing anything (see: Broad and Washington). If it can come together, I think the density and the redesign of the public spaces will create a fairly killer environment the likes of which we don't have in Philly currently.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

As you command:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=8739461#post8739461

You da man!

[iamrobk]

Not personally taking a position on it either way, but I think last nights City Council election results (particularly Kendra Brooks getting elected) make it even more likely that we will see some kind of tax abatement reform in the next year or 2. My guess is that we won't see any movement until the City's next fiscal year (which starts July 1st) because they'll want to get through budget season first, but I guess we'll see.