Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Please prove your statements about Vancouver "vibrancy" during the 50s-80s.

-Largest Neon Sign known on planet earth. Home to more Neon than any other city (except 2) on planet earth. (We had more than NYC in those days. What do we have more of than NYC these days other than a higher hipster doofus per capita).
-Largest performance stage west of Chicago. Let that sink in for a while. Back then this tiny backwater wasn't even the largest city in western Canada let alone North America. At one time, we had 10% of the city's population in theatre seats. Some of those facilities would rival the ones we have today!
- Had more theatres per capita than anyone else in Canada (including Toronto or Montreal).
-The amount and quality of performers (a virtual who's who list) who played Vancouver back in those days put us ahead of much larger cities such as Seattle and Los Angeles who were bypassed due to racist attitudes. The only other place that could make such a boast was Montreal. Toronto? Not even close!
-Largest arena west of New York City. Again, let that soak in. Yes that's right, larger than Chicago, Boston Montreal, etc etc.
-First regional shopping centre in Canada.
-PNE Way WAY bigger and better than it is today.
-6 day shopping was approved. (at a time when other Canadian cities did not allow it)
-The REAL Granville strip
-Great White Way
-Vibrant Chinatown (not the urine stained dying carcass that is there today)
-Canadas largest sport facility opened.
...and that is just for starters.

We were quite ambitious in those days....today its all about smaller, quiet, not so much rather than more of or in addition to.

So go ahead, share what we have now that other cities don't (that's not pot related)

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by fredinno

TBF, there really should be space for at least 1 or two big hotels built in the NEFC area, not just condos.

The view on top of the planned PavCo tower really would be incredible. Even the areas reserved for the 3rd and 4th Aquilini Towers (there may be space for a 5th if they still build one of the towers on top of the Skytrain viaduct).

There's supposedly a hotel in the Plaza of Nations project. The mix of uses for Concord's sites hasn't been announced yet. There's only a third Aquilini tower. The fourth wasn't submitted because the City weren't happy with it, and weren't willing to recommend approval.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Changing City

There's supposedly a hotel in the Plaza of Nations project. The mix of uses for Concord's sites hasn't been announced yet. There's only a third Aquilini tower. The fourth wasn't submitted because the City weren't happy with it, and weren't willing to recommend approval.

I meant a BIG hotel. Plaza of Nations isn't that big- likely a few stories at best is implied.

Source for what happened to the 4th? Was it was because it was over the Skytrain tracks, or...?

But really side note, the original Plaza of Nations should have been given a historical designation and saved. Expensive or not, it was the only covered plaza and concert space in Vancouver. It's also history, darn it. Where's the plaza replacement, anywhere in Vancouver?

[Vin]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

-Largest Neon Sign known on planet earth. Home to more Neon than any other city (except 2) on planet earth. (We had more than NYC in those days. What do we have more of than NYC these days other than a higher hipster doofus per capita).
-Largest performance stage west of Chicago. Let that sink in for a while. Back then this tiny backwater wasn't even the largest city in western Canada let alone North America. At one time, we had 10% of the city's population in theatre seats. Some of those facilities would rival the ones we have today!
- Had more theatres per capita than anyone else in Canada (including Toronto or Montreal).
-The amount and quality of performers (a virtual who's who list) who played Vancouver back in those days put us ahead of much larger cities such as Seattle and Los Angeles who were bypassed due to racist attitudes. The only other place that could make such a boast was Montreal. Toronto? Not even close!
-Largest arena west of New York City. Again, let that soak in. Yes that's right, larger than Chicago, Boston Montreal, etc etc.
-First regional shopping centre in Canada.
-PNE Way WAY bigger and better than it is today.
-6 day shopping was approved. (at a time when other Canadian cities did not allow it)
-The REAL Granville strip
-Great White Way
-Vibrant Chinatown
-Canadas largest sport facility opened.
...and that is just for starters.

We were quite ambitious in those days....today its all about smaller, quite, not so much rather than more of or in addition to.

So go ahead, share what we have now that other cities don't (that's not pot related)

People back then had the intense pioneering spirit for sure. They aimed to be the very best. I suppose the flower children of the 60s and 70s changed all that. The 80s and 90s were the worst and that's when BC had to seek lots of foreign investments just to get by. Vancouver is fast becoming a hollow shell of what it used to be.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Take your pick regarding policy, but reducing lanes in and out of the core probably stands out the most.

Here's some more statistics that say its congested:
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/vancouver-is-canada-s-worst-city-to-drive-in-study-claims-1.3609105

Regarding Indy revenues, you or anyone else outside the organization has any idea of their individual revenues are or where they came from. The event was staged by a corporation that did not release its detailed finances. The event in Toronto remains to this day so, there goes the theory that tobacco advertising had anything to do with the demise of the race. (it didn't)

I keep bringing it up because I stated that Edmonton has a better entertainment district around its major sports facility compared to the none existent one that we have/don't have. That is the point. Those words should never be uttered. But they are, because it is a fact. And that is a disgrace. Hiding from that fact, solves nothing

Traffic: Had the TomTom study blow up in my face about a year or so back. The methodology is flawed; INRIX is much more reliable, that study says traffic is average here, and having been in NYC and Singapore rush hours, I'm inclined to believe them.

Indy: And because nobody has any idea what the revenue or municipal net gross looks like, anything goes; articles from the time have the Molson Indy organizers shaking in their boots about Bill C-71 (1997).
Worth noting is that Toronto also has an NFL, NBA and MLB team... we couldn't even hold one of those three.

Entertainment district: Again, you're in luck. Bars, eateries, arts & performance spaces, community centre, ice rink, possibly a museum... once the viaducts come down.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

-Largest Neon Sign known on planet earth. Home to more Neon than any other city (except 2) on planet earth. (We had more than NYC in those days. What do we have more of than NYC these days other than a higher hipster doofus per capita).
-Largest performance stage west of Chicago. Let that sink in for a while. Back then this tiny backwater wasn't even the largest city in western Canada let alone North America. At one time, we had 10% of the city's population in theatre seats. Some of those facilities would rival the ones we have today!
- Had more theatres per capita than anyone else in Canada (including Toronto or Montreal).
-The amount and quality of performers (a virtual who's who list) who played Vancouver back in those days put us ahead of much larger cities such as Seattle and Los Angeles who were bypassed due to racist attitudes. The only other place that could make such a boast was Montreal. Toronto? Not even close!
-Largest arena west of New York City. Again, let that soak in. Yes that's right, larger than Chicago, Boston Montreal, etc etc.
-First regional shopping centre in Canada.
-PNE Way WAY bigger and better than it is today.
-6 day shopping was approved. (at a time when other Canadian cities did not allow it)
-The REAL Granville strip
-Great White Way
-Vibrant Chinatown
-Canadas largest sport facility opened.
...and that is just for starters.

We were quite ambitious in those days....today its all about smaller, quite, not so much rather than more of or in addition to.

So go ahead, share what we have now that other cities don't (that's not pot related)

- tallest building in the entire British Empire.
- first indoor ice rink; Denman down on the water where Devonian Park now is. the Van Millionaires played out of there and that is where they were based when they won the Stanley Cup

just another 2 to add to that list.

i would agree, Vancouver has gone downhill quite a bit from its beginnings. it is a shame we seem to have lost that spirit. the only thing the city really is known for is that fact that it is in a nice natural setting.

[WarrenC12]

And yet we're still tops for the cities people want to visit.

Are you suggesting we build the biggest _______? What?

Sounds like we were a destination for performers on the west coast due to racism in the US. I'm familiar with that history, but I don't know what you'd propose to recreate that.

We have a very liveable downtown and surrounding area thanks to not having a freeway blasted through the area. That includes our major venues for sports and other shows that come through town. Those are big bonuses that most other cities have moved to the burbs.

But I'll never convince those that are always pining for the past.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

- tallest building in the entire British Empire.
- first indoor ice rink; Denman down on the water where Devonian Park now is. the Van Millionaires played out of there and that is where they were based when they won the Stanley Cup

So I guess the downward spiral really began when the PCHA folded? /s

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Traffic: Had the TomTom study blow up in my face about a year or so back. The methodology is flawed; INRIX is much more reliable, that study says traffic is average here, and having been in NYC and Singapore rush hours, I'm inclined to believe them.

Indy: And because nobody has any idea what the revenue or municipal net gross looks like, anything goes; articles from the time have the Molson Indy organizers shaking in their boots about Bill C-71 (1997).
Worth noting is that Toronto also has an NFL, NBA and MLB team... we couldn't even hold one of those three.

Entertainment district: Again, you're in luck. Bars, eateries, arts & performance spaces, community centre, ice rink, possibly a museum... once the viaducts come down.

Ya, but you can't really pick and choose studies to say "this one is unreliable, while the other one is flawless". If anything it goes to show that all of these "studies" need to be taken with large amounts of salt. The other study has its faults too. i.e. Winnipeg being more congested than Vancouver is laughable.

Yes, the organizers of the event would be justified in their concerns about losing the ability to secure their largest sponsors who were willing to put large sums of money forward. Any normal business would do the same. But that has absolutely nothing to do with why the race left Vancouver.Trying to make a correlation between the two is an extreme reach and flat out wrong.
And again: Toronto does NOT have an NFL team.
And removing infrastructure will only hurt our chances of ever gaining or holding on to those teams in the future.

Wow, now THAT is an impressive Entertainment District. I count 1 whole pub. Thats a HUGE addition to the Prince Rupert sports and entertainment scene, but not so much for Vancouver.
The community rink project actually is pretty good, (although I still notice a childcare space ) and should provide as least a semblance of a REAL entertainment district, although still falls well short of Edmonton sadly.
Also loved these quotes from article. Perhaps some of you with the "rose coloured glasses" should take note:
"Lots of cities have places like this for people to go, but we don’t,”
"“This is also a response to a lot of criticism that we have received from visitors that Vancouver is a great city surrounded by beautiful seawalls, but there is nothing to do along the seawall apart from biking and walking.”

[GenWhy?]

... um there is in that design, 1 huge anchor "pub" and over 130,000 sf of food & beverage space.

Then there's the area to-be-built by the stadium and all the adjacent bars/restaurants.

Still not sure how the existing infrastructure would serve bars below it, if you kept the viaducts. Would Pacific Blvd. be a made into a 2-way? Do bars equal vibrancy?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Ya, but you can't really pick and choose studies to say "this one is unreliable, while the other one is flawless". If anything it goes to show that all of these "studies" need to be taken with large amounts of salt. The other study has its faults too. i.e. Winnipeg being more congested than Vancouver is laughable.

Yes, the organizers of the event would be justified in their concerns about losing the ability to secure their largest sponsors who were willing to put large sums of money forward. Any normal business would do the same. But that has absolutely nothing to do with why the race left Vancouver.Trying to make a correlation between the two is an extreme reach and flat out wrong.
And again: Toronto does NOT have an NFL team.
And removing infrastructure will only hurt our chances of ever gaining or holding on to those teams in the future.

Wow, now THAT is an impressive Entertainment District. I count 1 whole pub. Thats a HUGE addition to the Prince Rupert sports and entertainment scene, but not so much for Vancouver.
The community rink project actually is pretty good, (although I still notice a childcare space ) and should provide as least a semblance of a REAL entertainment district, although still falls well short of Edmonton sadly.
Also loved these quotes from article. Perhaps some of you with the "rose coloured glasses" should take note:
"Lots of cities have places like this for people to go, but we don’t,”
"“This is also a response to a lot of criticism that we have received from visitors that Vancouver is a great city surrounded by beautiful seawalls, but there is nothing to do along the seawall apart from biking and walking.”

Yeah, that's fair... though in the unlikely event that I end up in Winnipeg and somehow spend two hours in traffic, I reserve the right to say "I told you so."

Losing your major sponsors and not being able to find replacements? Sounds like a failure in the making. There were obstacles to the Molson Indy even back then.
(facepalm) That's what I get for mixing up the Argonauts with the Blue Jays. Mea culpa. But again, it's not a removal, it's a replacement, and that's hardly going to make Canucks night any worse than it is now.

Practically every other restaurant in Yaletown has a bar anyway, so the other F&B spaces should pick up the slack just fine. Do we really need two Donnelly pubs in one place, even beside the stadiums?
The childcare space is apparently part of the community centre/rink, which is needed anyway; guess Roundhouse is full up. I'll be the first to admit that the Yaletown part of False Creek is kind of lame unless you've got a dog/bike/volleyball, but the seawall overall is fine and getting better. The convention centre, Granville Island, Leg-in-Boot, or Cactus Club at English Bay, to name a few.

[WarrenC12]

The Courtnall's/Back Forty/Whatever it has been in between can hardly make a go of it being across the street from BC Place, and fairly close to Rogers Arena.

But sure, lack of bars is the problem.

[Migrant_Coconut]

TBF, that space doesn't have a lot of presence. A bigger, (visually) louder pub might get noticed by sportsgoers.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Yeah, that's fair... though in the unlikely event that I end up in Winnipeg and somehow spend two hours in traffic, I reserve the right to say "I told you so."

Losing your major sponsors and not being able to find replacements? Sounds like a failure in the making. There were obstacles to the Molson Indy even back then.
(facepalm) That's what I get for mixing up the Argonauts with the Blue Jays. Mea culpa. But again, it's not a removal, it's a replacement, and that's hardly going to make Canucks night any worse than it is now.

Practically every other restaurant in Yaletown has a bar anyway, so the other F&B spaces should pick up the slack just fine. Do we really need two Donnelly pubs in one place, even beside the stadiums?
The childcare space is apparently part of the community centre/rink, which is needed anyway; guess Roundhouse is full up. I'll be the first to admit that the Yaletown part of False Creek is kind of lame unless you've got a dog/bike/volleyball, but the seawall overall is fine and getting better. The convention centre, Granville Island, Leg-in-Boot, or Cactus Club at English Bay, to name a few.

How the heck did you get stuck in traffic in Winnipeg?

The race was doing just fine (although it was a hit not getting that sponsorship money). There was no danger of it going under. It left because of the lack of a willing location partner.

The community rink proposal is very nice and should have been what the entire waterfront area should have been. We got about 2 blocks worth of it which is really quite nice, then it dies for absolutely no reason. The False creek waterfront could have been a major draw all unto itself and could have been a scaled back version South Beach in Miami. You still could have accomplished all community building goals, but injected some life into the streetscape as well. Seeing the signage from across False Creek would have been postcard worthy. Could have been a great addition to the downtown scene, but we'll never know now.

However, with all that being said, a true Entertainment District needs to be immediately attached to the venue. That gives off a great vibe and greatly expands the types of events you can hold in the area.
Every city (almost) has some bars and restaurants in somewhat in the general neighbourhood, so us having that to offer is not unique. What you need is what they have in Edmonton or even Ottawa where you grab your pregame meal/drink literally steps from the venue (not blocks). It greatly enhances the event scene in the venue.
Ottawa is a textbook example of this. The Entertainment District is literally what gets fans (especially Younger ones) going to football games. The actual game itself is secondary. The experience and vibe of the entertainment district is the draw for people. They have spun that off to create a number of events in that complex which:
1)couldn't have happened before without it
2) enhances the vibrancy of the city as a whole

Day cares and condos don't really do those things

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Traffic: Had the TomTom study blow up in my face about a year or so back. The methodology is flawed; INRIX is much more reliable, that study says traffic is average here, and having been in NYC and Singapore rush hours, I'm inclined to believe them.

Indy: And because nobody has any idea what the revenue or municipal net gross looks like, anything goes; articles from the time have the Molson Indy organizers shaking in their boots about Bill C-71 (1997).
Worth noting is that Toronto also has an NFL, NBA and MLB team... we couldn't even hold one of those three.

Entertainment district: Again, you're in luck. Bars, eateries, arts & performance spaces, community centre, ice rink, possibly a museum... once the viaducts come down.

I guess you never consider the increase in the amount of traffic the new entertainment district would generate? It is already bad enough now whenever there are sporting or special events.

FYI, those can still be built with the viaducts intact. Again it is only propaganda that the entertainment district is only possible ONLY if the viaducts come down. In fact, with the viaducts intact, traffic would flow better around there as the surrounding roads do not have to deal with the additional number of traffic just passing through the downtown core, or those leaving or coming downtown without wanting to be at the new entertainment district.

Again, just proving to you that taking down the viaducts is a really bad idea.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

How the heck did you get stuck in traffic in Winnipeg?

Never even been there. Just a joke about how you can get stuck in traffic seemingly anywhere these days.

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

The community rink proposal is very nice and should have been what the entire waterfront area should have been. We got about 2 blocks worth of it which is really quite nice, then it dies for absolutely no reason. The False creek waterfront could have been a major draw all unto itself and could have been a scaled back version South Beach in Miami. You still could have accomplished all community building goals, but injected some life into the streetscape as well. Seeing the signage from across False Creek would have been postcard worthy. Could have been a great addition to the downtown scene, but we'll never know now.

However, with all that being said, a true Entertainment District needs to be immediately attached to the venue. That gives off a great vibe and greatly expands the types of events you can hold in the area.
Every city (almost) has some bars and restaurants in somewhat in the general neighbourhood, so us having that to offer is not unique. What you need is what they have in Edmonton or even Ottawa where you grab your pregame meal/drink literally steps from the venue (not blocks). It greatly enhances the event scene in the venue.
Ottawa is a textbook example of this. The Entertainment District is literally what gets fans (especially Younger ones) going to football games. The actual game itself is secondary. The experience and vibe of the entertainment district is the draw for people. They have spun that off to create a number of events in that complex which:
1)couldn't have happened before without it
2) enhances the vibrancy of the city as a whole

Day cares and condos don't really do those things

That's fair. Given the geography and massing of the area though, there's not much room for a vibe. Closest we've got now is Parq and Abbott Street - makes sense to expand on that instead. Maybe redevelop Beatty for bars and nightclubs in the future. Agreed that Yaletown and Coal Harbour are wasted opportunities, but there's no use shouting over spilled milk.

Like it or not, there are families in the downtown area, and they need somewhere to go. So long as they don't start a "turn that crap down" movement, things should be fine.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

TBF, that space doesn't have a lot of presence. A bigger, (visually) louder pub might get noticed by sportsgoers.

They have tried to do something with the outdoor parking lot.

Boston Pizza did better with the huge TVs and trying to make it a real "sports bar".

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Never even been there. Just a joke about how you can get stuck in traffic seemingly anywhere these days.



That's fair. Given the geography and massing of the area though, there's not much room for a vibe. Closest we've got now is Parq and Abbott Street - makes sense to expand on that instead. Maybe redevelop Beatty for bars and nightclubs in the future. Agreed that Yaletown and Coal Harbour are wasted opportunities, but there's no use shouting over spilled milk.

Like it or not, there are families in the downtown area, and they need somewhere to go. So long as they don't start a "turn that crap down" movement, things should be fine.

The "International Village" area could be a lot better but is limited by the DTES and the influence that spreads. More development post-viaducts should help push back.

There's something to be said for not designing your city around what counts as fun for 25 year old men though.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

I guess you never consider the increase in the amount of traffic the new entertainment district would generate? It is already bad enough now whenever there are sporting or special events.

FYI, those can still be built with the viaducts intact. Again it is only propaganda that the entertainment district is only possible ONLY if the viaducts come down. In fact, with the viaducts intact, traffic would flow better around there as the surrounding roads do not have to deal with the additional number of traffic just passing through the downtown core, or those leaving or coming downtown without wanting to be at the new entertainment district.

Again, just proving to you that taking down the viaducts is a really bad idea.

Game night (sometimes just rush hour) pushes traffic up to 100% saturation with the viaducts. The rebuild is a 1 to 1 replacement; traffic will not somehow jump to 150% saturation without the viaducts, which would violate the laws of physics.

They can be built. And to walk between them and BC Place will take upwards of twenty minutes - or ten minutes on a narrow overpass definitely not meant to be a main entryway - when it could be ten minutes right to the front gate. It's just as much easier to carpool, taxi or bus with a Georgia Ramp than with the viaducts.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

They have tried to do something with the outdoor parking lot.

Boston Pizza did better with the huge TVs and trying to make it a real "sports bar".

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The "International Village" area could be a lot better but is limited by the DTES and the influence that spreads. More development post-viaducts should help push back.

There's something to be said for not designing your city around what counts as fun for 25 year old men though.

Heh, literally that demographic, and I don't like it much either. But there should be a kind of designated "drunk tank roundup" zone in the area, even if it's just one or two blocks. Maybe add a cinema and library to balance it out.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Speaking of the community centre, let's hope there's other recreational stuff besides the rink - there's a shortage of bowling and rock-climbing spaces downtown. Wouldn't mind one or two of those fancy VR sports booths either.