Sports in Canadian culture

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Hockey at the grassroots level is pricing itself out everyone except the upper middle class.

I don't think this hurts the popularity of the sport to be perfectly honest, its exactly why hockey players are treated like royalty in our culture. Hockey players are modern day knights.

Simply playing the sport has certain social connotations that don't exist in traditional sports. I'm too old to play hockey so I really don't care that it wasn't an option for me growing up. Now that I'm approaching fatherhood I fantasize endlessly about being able to put my kid through the system.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Hockey at the grassroots level is pricing itself out everyone except the upper middle class.

The fundamentals are not too bad in terms of cost... equipment and ice time are a bit expensive but not what I'd consider prohibitively so compared to other youth sports. I guess it does get costlier as you move up the ladder and require more ice time and more resources... once you're playing AAA or whatever it certainly gets pricy.

I think it's more the optional stuff like the camps, tournaments, etc. that drive up the costs, along with the big one... hockey academies. But academies are really just an upper middle class indulgence for people who think their kids have pro potential. They are not really essential.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

I don't think this hurts the popularity of the sport to be perfectly honest, its exactly why hockey players are treated like royalty in our culture. Hockey players are modern day knights.

Simply playing the sport has certain social connotations that don't exist in traditional sports. I'm too old to play hockey so I really don't care that it wasn't an option for me growing up. Now that I'm approaching fatherhood I fantasize endlessly about being able to put my kid through the system.

One of the great things about soccer or basketball is that they are super egalitarian... in some ways, a sport like basketball even favours the inner city kid with nothing else to do really besides hone his skills on the court. Even if he never makes the pros, the possibility of getting a college scholarship is still pretty amazing.

Contrast that with hockey where it tends to favour people whose parents have either money, know-how, or both. The amount of second or third generation NHLers in the league now is staggering.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by esquire

One of the great things about soccer or basketball is that they are super egalitarian... in some ways, a sport like basketball even favours the inner city kid with nothing else to do really besides hone his skills on the court. Even if he never makes the pros, the possibility of getting a college scholarship is still pretty amazing.

Contrast that with hockey where it tends to favour people whose parents have either money, know-how, or both. The amount of second or third generation NHLers in the league now is staggering.

I donno I don't think people care about having an egalitarian game when people are talking about pro athletes making millions of dollars per year.

My biggest problem with basketball is that it looks so ordinary. It literally reminds me of high school gym class.(I've never understood the appeal to be honest). I like soccer quite a bit but Canada is likely never gonna rate.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

The fundamentals are not too bad in terms of cost... equipment and ice time are a bit expensive but not what I'd consider prohibitively so compared to other youth sports. I guess it does get costlier as you move up the ladder and require more ice time and more resources... once you're playing AAA or whatever it certainly gets pricy.

I think it's more the optional stuff like the camps, tournaments, etc. that drive up the costs, along with the big one... hockey academies. But academies are really just an upper middle class indulgence for people who think their kids have pro potential. They are not really essential.

Hockey has a bad rep in terms of costs but as someone whose "activity phase" with the kids is winding down (as it is for most of our friends) I don't think the comparison to many, many other activities is as bad as it seems.

One advantage that hockey has is that because it's Canadian, there is plenty of good competition not too far away. During a typical year, most kids' hockey teams in my area probably play games within a radius of 50 km of home, and a couple of tournaments within a radius of 250 km at the most.

The teens I know who play soccer at a competitive level go much further afield than that to play regular season games. My kids have a couple of friends who went to a camp with FC Barcelona in Spain last year. You don't need to do anything that pricey in order to perfect your hockey skills. Or at least, you can register for a hell of a lot of power skating and sessions at Jacques Martin's Summer Hockey School for the price of a couple of weeks in Barcelona.

More girl-centric activities like cheerleading, dancing or gymnastics can also be more expensive than people think due to multiple costumes and also competitions not only in your immediate region but also in places like Las Vegas or Orlando.

Stuff like martial arts when you get to a competitive level can also involve quite a bit of overseas travel.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by esquire

One of the great things about soccer or basketball is that they are super egalitarian... in some ways, a sport like basketball even favours the inner city kid with nothing else to do really besides hone his skills on the court. Even if he never makes it the pros, the possibility of getting a college scholarship is still pretty amazing.

Contrast that with hockey where it tends to favour people whose parents have either money, know-how, or both. The amount of second or third generation NHLers in the league now is staggering.

I don’t know about Winnipeg but Regina has an amazing minor football program that is affordable to almost everyone and has an inner city focus to get those less fortunate kids involved in sports.
Yes football has its issues but at least you can be the fat kid and you still have a role to play. Unlike soccer or basketball.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

I donno I don't think people care about having an egalitarian game when people are talking about pro athletes making millions of dollars per year.

My biggest problem with basketball is that it looks so ordinary. It literally reminds me of high school gym class.(I've never understood the appeal to be honest). I like soccer quite a bit but Canada is likely never gonna rate.

This reminds you of high school gym class? Were they serving steroids in the cafeteria?



I find the statement really odd because if anything, basketball is the the hardest sport to scale down to a non-freakish-athlete level given the fixed height of the basket. It's the main reason women's basketball is such a harder sell over soccer or hockey for example.

If anything I'd say soccer looks the most "ordinary". Apart from the moments of brilliance that remind you they are some of the top athletes on the planet, the game is really about fundamentals and positioning at its core. I can train for the rest of my life but I'm never going to be able to jump over a 7 footer like Vince Carter did.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Hockey has a bad rep in terms of costs but as someone whose "activity phase" with the kids is winding down (as it is for most of our friends) I don't think the comparison to many, many other activities is as bad as it seems.

One advantage that hockey has is that because it's Canadian, there is plenty of good competition not too far away. During a typical year, most kids' hockey teams in my area probably play games within a radius of 50 km of home, and a couple of tournaments within a radius of 250 km at the most.

The teens I know who play soccer at a competitive level go much further afield than that to play regular season games. My kids have a couple of friends who went to a camp with FC Barcelona in Spain last year. You don't need to do anything that pricey in order to perfect your hockey skills. Or at least, you can register for a hell of a lot of power skating and sessions at Jacques Martin's Summer Hockey School for the price of a couple of weeks in Barcelona.

More girl-centric activities like cheerleading, dancing or gymnastics can also be more expensive than people think due to multiple costumes and also competitions not only in your immediate region but also in places like Las Vegas or Orlando.

Stuff like martial arts when you get to a competitive level can also involve quite a bit of overseas travel.

You do appreciate you're part of the upper middle class that he is talking about?

That being said restricting travel and synthetic ice might do a lot to fix the issue.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

You do appreciate you're part of the upper middle class that he is talking about?
.

Yes, but so is pretty much everyone else who has kids in those activities I named. (Though I do know quite a few people with more modest incomes who make sacrifices so their kids can partake in activities.)

Generally speaking poor people in Canada don't have their kids in competitive soccer or competitive basketball (or any other activity) just as a result of these being sports their kids could have begun to play cheaply on the street or in a park.

At least not yet, we don't have the support structure or recruitment impetus (from clubs or colleges) that you have in some other countries that allow a truly gifted but poor kid to get taken under their wing and made into a superstar.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I don’t know about Winnipeg but Regina has an amazing minor football program that is affordable to almost everyone and has an inner city focus to get those less fortunate kids involved in sports.
Yes football has its issues but at least you can be the fat kid and you still have a role to play. Unlike soccer or basketball.

Football, soccer, baseball and basketball all have the benefit of not requiring a specialized facility (at least for low level play) which gives them a huge cost advantage over hockey.

Unlike Acajack, my kids are just entering their "activity phase". So for Timbits soccer, we just go to a nearby schoolyard and play. But for hockey, these same Timbits kids have to vie with the MJHL, high school hockey, high-level minor hockey plus whatever else for ice time. And you have to pay the going rate.

I don't know how you get around that with hockey. But yes, at least there are other options for sports.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

But it isn't your body its your mind. Having bad knees is one thing if you have you education to fall back on, but with concussions you aren't just physically useless you have destroyed your earning potential for life..

Yes, when I say "body" I'm referring to everything including the mind.

It's not like one hit and you're a vegetable. You can play it by ear after every concussion. If after the first one you think it's not worth it, then retire. There are plenty of ex-players who've had 2 or 3 concussions and are doing well in retirement with only minor issues. If you're not terrible with finances, you could build up decent coin before the first or second concussion forces you to retire. If more players take this cautious approach, you're just going to see shorter football careers and more frequent roster rotations.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Yes, when I say "body" I'm referring to everything including the mind.

It's not like one hit and you're a vegetable. You can play it by ear after every concussion. If after the first one you think it's not worth it, then retire. There are plenty of ex-players who've had 2 or 3 concussions and are doing well in retirement with only minor issues. If you're not terrible with finances, you could build up decent coin before the first or second concussion forces you to retire. If more players take this cautious approach, you're just going to see shorter football careers and more frequent roster rotations.

The damage isn't from heavy and hard concussions. It's a cumulative experience from the trauma of simply tackling at practice. Because of the nature of the damage your not even conscious of a whole lot of the damage.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

I like soccer quite a bit but Canada is likely never gonna rate.

You should start paying attention now. Canada is probably the last bastion of untapped potential that may finally be coming to the surface.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

I love football but I would be very, very reluctant to let my kids play. Not when there are so many other sports out there.

You might want to consider this then.

Female Soccer Players Get the Most Concussions in High School Sports
New research shows that head injuries are now more common in girls' soccer than boys' football.
Hollee Actman Becker

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

The damage isn't from heavy and hard concussions. It's a cumulative experience from the trauma of simply tackling at practice. Because of the nature of the damage your not even conscious of a whole lot of the damage.

Meh, it doesn't change my point... high risk, high reward. There'll always be players who'll take that gamble - they'll just leave the craps table early when they've won enough money.

Hockey is in a similar situation - even if it's not as bad. Getting hit numerous times a game into the boards, falling down on the ice often, etc. It all adds up.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by elly63

You might want to consider this then.

Female Soccer Players Get the Most Concussions in High School Sports
New research shows that head injuries are now more common in girls' soccer than boys' football.
Hollee Actman Becker

Volleyball and softball it is, then!

That's a very unexpected finding.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Meh, it doesn't change my point... high risk, high reward. There'll always be players who'll take that gamble - they'll just leave the craps table early when they've won enough money.

Hockey is in a similar situation - even if it's not as bad. Getting hit numerous times a game into the boards, falling down on the ice often, etc. It all adds up.

Not sure how high the reward is. NFL salaries have a huge range, and most of the people getting the concussions are the guys up front making the lowest amount of money and lasting the fewest years in the league. I can also imagine that not a lot of those players have the money management skills to make that league minimum salary last.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Meh, it doesn't change my point... high risk, high reward. There'll always be players who'll take that gamble - they'll just leave the craps table early when they've won enough money.

Hockey is in a similar situation - even if it's not as bad. Getting hit numerous times a game into the boards, falling down on the ice often, etc. It all adds up.

Non checking hockey leagues are already becoming more normal. Non checking wouldn't reduce the number of Gretzkys in the league. We can also use different sets of technology to measure the amount of trauma collected through each game.

The equivalent doesn't exist in Football.

Also the high risk high reward equation doesn't rate. 400k sounds like a lot of money but over a lifetime of being mildly disabled it doesn't count for much. And that's if you are extraordinarily lucky.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by elly63

You might want to consider this then.

Female Soccer Players Get the Most Concussions in High School Sports
New research shows that head injuries are now more common in girls' soccer than boys' football.
Hollee Actman Becker

The main issue in this is women play rougher against each other because they are weaker and they use to much head bumping with the ball. More aggressive reffing and banning head bumps would fix the majority of that issue.

Also I'm not sure if this article is even factoring in the difference between a major concussion and the cumulative trauma that occurs when checking/tackling.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

I donno I don't think people care about having an egalitarian game when people are talking about pro athletes making millions of dollars per year.

My biggest problem with basketball is that it looks so ordinary. It literally reminds me of high school gym class.(I've never understood the appeal to be honest). I like soccer quite a bit but Canada is likely never gonna rate.

I have the same view of basketball and it is hard for me to overcome it. The playing surface is so small. Even hockey's is bigger.