Halifax Stadium Discussion

[OldDartmouthMark]

Realistically, Halifax doesn't get many nights cold enough that diesels won't start at all, but it's true if you have so many buses that have to run on schedule, you don't want to chance that they will be difficult to start when needed.

That said, fitting the entire fleet with block heaters and upgrading the electrical capacity to run them would cost far less than $100m... not to mention the carbon footprint of heating an entire building vs a number of block heaters. Council continues to want to appear environmentally 'woke' but doesn't really seem to understand the science behind it. This is not entirely unusual for politicians, though. Next year we are going to start cutting down more trees and bolstering pulp and paper pollution when we switch to paper bags after plastic is banned - no research, just appear to be doing something...

I actually wasn't aware that the buses were being parked inside a warm garage whenever they weren't running. This is in fact inherently bad for all metal components on the buses as cycling from cold to warm after loading the buses with road salt, snow, slush and ice will actually accelerate corrosion. Leaving them outside in the winter is actually better for the bodies and other metal components. Maybe the bus drivers don't want to scrape the windows in the morning? lol

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Hi Mark,
The information I have may not be in the Capital budget. I have heard and read some information regarding the garage and the possible expansion. The estimated cost of a new police station has been briefly discussed at the Board of Police Commissioners but there is no site identified.
The November 2018 speech by Mayor Savage to the Board of Trade is public and reported in the media, but he has never referred to the pension plan deficit and the resulting financial problem. https://www.thestar.com/halifax/2018/11/...-crowd-tough-budget-debates-to-come.html
The December 2018 Council meeting re the Capital Budget is a good starting point because staff laid out the near and long term capital spending facing HRM and the councillors were not happy bunnies. In my opinion that meeting effectively killed a stadium. Just maintaining existing infrastructure is a challenge.
https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default/files/documents/city-hall/regional-council/181204cow5.pdf

Thanks very much, Colin.

I'll read through it when I get a chance!

[dtown]

Counselor Austin's motion to direct staff to stop looking at SSE's proposal has been defeated. 9 votes no, 8 votes yes. It needed 2/3rds to pass so wasn't really close. Mancini, Streatch, Nicoll, Hendsbee, Karsten, Walker, Adams, Blackburn and Savage all voting no.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dtown

Counselor Austin's motion to direct staff to stop looking at SSE's proposal has been defeated. 9 votes no, 8 votes yes. It needed 2/3rds to pass so wasn't really close. Mancini, Streatch, Nicoll, Hendsbee, Karsten, Walker, Adams, Blackburn and Savage all voting no.

This vote doesn't seem to bode well for the stadium though. If an extreme motion like this almost gets a majority, how likely is it that most of the councillors will vote in favour of funding the project?

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by someone123

This vote doesn't seem to bode well for the stadium though. If an extreme motion like this almost gets a majority, how likely is it that most of the councillors will vote in favour of funding the project?

I notice Dube never refers to documents that are not in the public realm but clearly indicate HRM does not have the money for any type of proposal for a stadium for a CFL franchise. What he says in public is not what he and senior staff say and write in private.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by someone123

This vote doesn't seem to bode well for the stadium though. If an extreme motion like this almost gets a majority, how likely is it that most of the councillors will vote in favour of funding the project?

That is concerning maybe this team has to stay in Moncton permantley or cease the cause of having a 10th CFL team in Atlantic Canada if it continues to be this hard to get a bare bones stadium built.

[Keith P.]

It is odd how the "progressives" on Council define the word "risk". Austin and those supporting his motion think the risk to HRM of supporting a stadium proposal (not just the one that has been released, but any new one that might get negotiated) is too great, but spending $20 million a year on unused bike lanes and reduced roadway capacity carries no risk at all. Bizarre.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by thurmas

That is concerning maybe this team has to stay in Moncton permantley or cease the cause of having a 10th CFL team in Atlantic Canada if it continues to be this hard to get a bare bones stadium built.

It was never the proponent's intent to locate a franchise permanently in Moncton, only to operate the franchise in Moncton temporarily (1-2 years) while a stadium is built is Halifax.

If HRM nixes the plan, then the dream is dead.......

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

It is odd how the "progressives" on Council define the word "risk". Austin and those supporting his motion think the risk to HRM of supporting a stadium proposal (not just the one that has been released, but any new one that might get negotiated) is too great, but spending $20 million a year on unused bike lanes and reduced roadway capacity carries no risk at all. Bizarre.

You have just defined what a "progressive" is perfectly Keith.........

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

It is odd how the "progressives" on Council define the word "risk". Austin and those supporting his motion think the risk to HRM of supporting a stadium proposal (not just the one that has been released, but any new one that might get negotiated) is too great, but spending $20 million a year on unused bike lanes and reduced roadway capacity carries no risk at all. Bizarre.

From briefly listening to 95.7 on the way to work this morning, it sounds like the general thought pattern of council, even those who voted down Austin's proposal, is that the city paying for any stadium that doesn't specifically cater to amateur sports (such as the 4-pad arenas that were built without batting an eye) is a bad idea.

This seems like a very small-town mentality to me. There seems to be no concept of all the peripheral benefits that a large stadium and a major sports team would bring to the city. I think you are right in that we have a very short-sighted council in place now and hopefully most of them will be replaced in the next election with people who actually want to see our city grow and succeed...

It seems ridiculous that we are still having discussions like this in 2019.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

From briefly listening to 95.7 on the way to work this morning, it sounds like the general thought pattern of council, even those who voted down Austin's proposal, is that the city paying for any stadium that doesn't specifically cater to amateur sports (such as the 4-pad arenas that were built without batting an eye) is a bad idea.

This seems like a very small-town mentality to me. There seems to be no concept of all the peripheral benefits that a large stadium and a major sports team would bring to the city. I think you are right in that we have a very short-sighted council in place now and hopefully most of them will be replaced in the next election with people who actually want to see our city grow and succeed...

It seems ridiculous that we are still having discussions like this in 2019.

Wait until the Capital Budget is tabled.
Don't know who started this but one post is dead wrong : https://twitter.com/SackTheStadium

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Wait until the Capital Budget is tabled.
Don't know who started this but one post is dead wrong : https://twitter.com/SackTheStadium

Hi Colin, admittedly I haven't had the patience and motivation required to wade through the 2018 Capital Budget link that you provided here a couple of weeks ago. I guess it's a good indication as to why I didn't decide to study accounting many years ago...

Can you provide some more specific examples to which you are alluding? I feel you have something significant to say here and have to say that you've piqued my curiosity...

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Hi Colin, admittedly I haven't had the patience and motivation required to wade through the 2018 Capital Budget link that you provided here a couple of weeks ago. I guess it's a good indication as to why I didn't decide to study accounting many years ago...

Can you provide some more specific examples to which you are alluding? I feel you have something significant to say here and have to say that you've piqued my curiosity...

The link to twitter shows a comment that the stadium would be privately owned, which is dead wrong.
I never studied accounting but I passed the securities exam, read a pile of financial statements from public and private entities and asked a lot of questions. Unfortunately the local media,much like elsewhere, don't understand financial statements and can't understand what is in front of them. I will say this - HRM faces significant capital expenditures and funding them will be quite a challenge, a challenge that senior staff are well aware of but seem reluctant, or perhaps unable/unwilling to explain to the public.
Mayor Savage speaks to the Chamber of Commerce on November 15. Let us see how he describes the challenges and possible solutions.

[Keith P.]

They are considering dropping $50 million (likely 20% more than that at least actually) on a Forum restoration or replacement to pay homage at the altar of the minor hockey religion. If there is any sport/recreation thing that is subsidized more than hockey by tax dollars I dunno what is. Don't forget the two existing bus-garage-architecture 4-pad arenas at between $40-$50 million apiece.

Then we have the Canada Games Centre which is owned by HRM and exclusively does minor/amateur sport, apparently $42 million in 2010 dollars, $12 million of which came from the Feds.

But yeah, a stadium, of which we have an existing total of zero, is far too risky. Riiight.

Public-sector capital budgets are funny things. There is typically a rule of thumb that some percentage of your total revenue budget should be devoted to capital items. I don't know what that is in HRM's case right now though it is likely easily found. But like many rules of thumb, it may not be appropriate depending on the situation. A place that is growing rapidly will require a much larger capital budget, as will one that has had depressed capital spending for a number of years and created an infrastructure deficit. Conversely, a place that is static or in decline would likely require less capital spending. There are other variables too: do you want to borrow or pay as you go? Do you want to increase your capital budget by reducing your operating budget or increasing taxes or some combination thereof? There are many possible variables. The point is that there are no right answers. 20 additional full-time bureaucrats or police/fire positions will likely cost you $2 million a year for decades and nobody bats an eye at that. That would support something like a $30 million mortgage of 25 years in length.

It is all a matter of setting priorities. This Council has chosen building bike lanes and degrading street/road capacity, to name just one example, over other things.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

They are considering dropping $50 million (likely 20% more than that at least actually) on a Forum restoration or replacement to pay homage at the altar of the minor hockey religion. If there is any sport/recreation thing that is subsidized more than hockey by tax dollars I dunno what is. Don't forget the two existing bus-garage-architecture 4-pad arenas at between $40-$50 million apiece.

Then we have the Canada Games Centre which is owned by HRM and exclusively does minor/amateur sport, apparently $42 million in 2010 dollars, $12 million of which came from the Feds.

But yeah, a stadium, of which we have an existing total of zero, is far too risky. Riiight.

Public-sector capital budgets are funny things. There is typically a rule of thumb that some percentage of your total revenue budget should be devoted to capital items. I don't know what that is in HRM's case right now though it is likely easily found. But like many rules of thumb, it may not be appropriate depending on the situation. A place that is growing rapidly will require a much larger capital budget, as will one that has had depressed capital spending for a number of years and created an infrastructure deficit. Conversely, a place that is static or in decline would likely require less capital spending. There are other variables too: do you want to borrow or pay as you go? Do you want to increase your capital budget by reducing your operating budget or increasing taxes or some combination thereof? There are many possible variables. The point is that there are no right answers. 20 additional full-time bureaucrats or police/fire positions will likely cost you $2 million a year for decades and nobody bats an eye at that. That would support something like a $30 million mortgage of 25 years in length.

It is all a matter of setting priorities. This Council has chosen building bike lanes and degrading street/road capacity, to name just one example, over other things.

Don't forget the $100m transit garage...

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Don't forget the $100m transit garage...

Leave the FEW buses that don't fit in the garage outside for another year or two and get the stadium built

[elly63]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

According to a couple of posters from Saskatchewan on the CFL site, Drummond is very wealthy.

[Colin May]

The billionaire Drummond,muscling in on the drug trade :
[url]https://cannabislifenetwork.com/owner-of-best-buds-society-on-being-a-wanted-man-the-billionaires-trying-to-control-saskatchewans-cannabis-industry-and-more.
I really liked this quote : "It’s crazy out here, and we’ve been a big source, for a long time, for cannabis knowledge and everything.

Andrew Scheer, the leader of the Conservative Party, he’s from Regina, and his godson was one of the first patients that we ever helped out, and the dad, who is one of Andrew’s best friends, has been very loyal to us and a big supporter of ours.

Andrew has even been helping us behind the scenes.

We’ve had Cathay Wagantall, a Conservative MP, who continuously sends us people and patients and we’ve been feeding her a lot of ammo and questions to start asking during Question Period "

[spaustin]

I'm back because I'm a sucker for punishment

It's not $2 million a year. It's $2 million, plus ongoing capital, plus taking on the risk (loan guarantees, risk the team fails), plus giving up a portion of tax revenue from Shannon Park to the Schooners for 30 years, plus many millions to fix the offsite transportation infrastructure. My take away from Tuesday below.

http://www.samaustin.ca/council-update-s...clNBlmUcO906D01sW5UsfebL4C_6LUrikcoBAwSQ

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The billionaire Drummond,muscling in on the drug trade :
[url]https://cannabislifenetwork.com/owner-of-best-buds-society-on-being-a-wanted-man-the-billionaires-trying-to-control-saskatchewans-cannabis-industry-and-more.
I really liked this quote : "It’s crazy out here, and we’ve been a big source, for a long time, for cannabis knowledge and everything.

Andrew Scheer, the leader of the Conservative Party, he’s from Regina, and his godson was one of the first patients that we ever helped out, and the dad, who is one of Andrew’s best friends, has been very loyal to us and a big supporter of ours.

Andrew has even been helping us behind the scenes.

We’ve had Cathay Wagantall, a Conservative MP, who continuously sends us people and patients and we’ve been feeding her a lot of ammo and questions to start asking during Question Period "

Is there a point to this drivel or is it your usual 2+2=7?