Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[tovan]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Or... why not make a second line to other places and leave this one the way it is?
A line to White Rock and Squamish would be a good start.

... now lets here more arguments.....

Agreed. We need to look at expansion to at least 3 regional commuter rail lines like most major cities globally. See any examples in Toronto, Montreal, Asia, Europe, Australia, etc. Skytrain is fine for shorter trips, but regional rail is needed to connect to cities beyond the core metro urban area. This would reduce the reliance on car travel to/from those places, thereby relieving some burden on inadequate highway infrastructure.

1. Existing West Coast Express.

2. South of Fraser line (Valley Express) - either White Rock/S Surrey along BNSF line or Abbotsford/Chilliwack along SRY line. Stations at
-Pacific Central (Terminus)
-Renfrew/Broadway Tech Centre
-Still Creek/Willingdon
-Sapperton
-stations in Delta/Surrey depending on the route chosen.

The stumbling blocks, however, are the inadequate crossing at New Westminster Rail Bridge (this needs to be twinned or replaced) and trackage rights/capacity through Vancouver and Burnaby. Also, plans for Skytrain extension to Langley would affect ridership numbers if this line were to go through N. Surrey/Langley.

3. North Shore (Sea to Sky Express) – Squamish commuter/Whistler tourist train – There needs to be an alternative to the Sea to Sky Highway.
-Lonsdale (Terminus)
-Park Royal
-Horseshoe Bay
-Lions Bay
-Squamish (1-2 trains SB to N.Van in the AM, returning to Squamish in the PM)
-Whistler (1-2 trains NB to Whistler in the AM, returning to N.Van in the PM)

Possible Rolling stock:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V/Line_VLocity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Coradia_LINT#LINT_41
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Class_X_73500
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Sharyo_DMU

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Or... why not make a second line to other places and leave this one the way it is?
A line to White Rock and Squamish would be a good start.

... now lets here more arguments.....

Originally Posted by tovan

Agreed. We need to look at expansion to at least 3 regional commuter rail lines like most major cities globally. See any examples in Toronto, Montreal, Asia, Europe, Australia, etc. Skytrain is fine for shorter trips, but regional rail is needed to connect to cities beyond the core metro urban area. This would reduce the reliance on car travel to/from those places, thereby relieving some burden on inadequate highway infrastructure.

And once we become a major city like Toronto or Montreal, we should most definitely build some more. Right now, extra lines don't seem worth the hassle of fighting Big Rail and/or laying extra track at our expense - not when we've still got four SkyTrain lines to finish. Mission alone is larger than Squamish and White Rock put together.

That said, extra WCE capacity and an extension to Abbotsford should definitely be on the Transport 2050 list.

Originally Posted by tovan

3. North Shore (Sea to Sky Express) – Squamish commuter/Whistler tourist train – There needs to be an alternative to the Sea to Sky Highway.
-Lonsdale (Terminus)
-Park Royal
-Horseshoe Bay
-Lions Bay
-Squamish (1-2 trains SB to N.Van in the AM, returning to Squamish in the PM)
-Whistler (1-2 trains NB to Whistler in the AM, returning to N.Van in the PM)

We had BC Rail for that until Campbell's Libs sold it to CN for chump change... and CN doesn't seem willing to share.

[lokyin]

Regarding WCE commuter rail between Waterfront and Moody/Coquitlam to be extended to bidirectional-allday, is the entire current corridor of land owned by CP? or does CP just own their current rail track? Can we technically double/triple-track alongside the corridor for WCE? Is there room?

Similarly, could we track along CN's rail from Pacific Central outwards southeastbound?

Are there any realistic corridors for commuter rail to hit Langley so that it makes stops at local population centers at Langley, then Abbotsford, then Chilliwack? Perhaps turn south from the existing Pitt Meadows WCE station down 200th?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by tovan

2. South of Fraser line (Valley Express) - either White Rock/S Surrey along BNSF line or Abbotsford/Chilliwack along SRY line. Stations at
-Pacific Central (Terminus)
-Renfrew/Broadway Tech Centre
-Still Creek/Willingdon
-Sapperton
-stations in Delta/Surrey depending on the route chosen.

The stumbling blocks, however, are the inadequate crossing at New Westminster Rail Bridge (this needs to be twinned or replaced) and trackage rights/capacity through Vancouver and Burnaby. Also, plans for Skytrain extension to Langley would affect ridership numbers if this line were to go through N. Surrey/Langley.

It's come up on here before - not everyone is trying to get to downtown Van. A SoF line could just as easily terminate at Surrey Central (aka becoming the SoF downtown). It's like saying your North Shore line MUST terminate in downtown Van.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And once we become a major city like Toronto or Montreal, we should most definitely build some more. Right now, extra lines don't seem worth the hassle of fighting Big Rail and/or laying extra track at our expense - not when we've still got four SkyTrain lines to finish. Mission alone is larger than Squamish and White Rock put together.

Yeah it's great to dream about putting rail lines everywhere but we need to lay our own tracks to do it. Where is the money from that going to come from - by pushing back the Skytrain to UBC? We need to take care of our real needs first.

Originally Posted by lokyin

Regarding WCE commuter rail between Waterfront and Moody/Coquitlam to be extended to bidirectional-allday, is the entire current corridor of land owned by CP? or does CP just own their current rail track? Can we technically double/triple-track alongside the corridor for WCE? Is there room?

There isn't room to add tracks along the WCE section in Vancouver / Burnaby.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And once we become a major city like Toronto or Montreal, we should most definitely build some more. Right now, extra lines don't seem worth the hassle of fighting Big Rail and/or laying extra track at our expense - not when we've still got four SkyTrain lines to finish. Mission alone is larger than Squamish and White Rock put together.

That said, extra WCE capacity and an extension to Abbotsford should definitely be on the Transport 2050 list.

Wait, What?

Vancouver is the 3rd largest CMA in Canada. How much more of a major city do you need to be?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Sheba

It's come up on here before - not everyone is trying to get to downtown Van. A SoF line could just as easily terminate at Surrey Central (aka becoming the SoF downtown). It's like saying your North Shore line MUST terminate in downtown Van.

Yeah it's great to dream about putting rail lines everywhere but we need to lay our own tracks to do it. Where is the money from that going to come from - by pushing back the Skytrain to UBC? We need to take care of our real needs first.

There isn't room to add tracks along the WCE section in Vancouver / Burnaby.

Let's start with asking why not have downtown as a terminal for all? That is what works well for most commuter rail, as it makes a hub that is most likely where most passengers are going to. What you are suggesting would place a burden on the Skytrain to downtown.

The money comes from the federal, provincial and municipal governments, just like EXO and GO.

You can make room. Properties may need to be bought up, water may need to be filled in. This is what modern major cities do.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And once we become a major city like Toronto or Montreal, we should most definitely build some more. Right now, extra lines don't seem worth the hassle of fighting Big Rail and/or laying extra track at our expense - not when we've still got four SkyTrain lines to finish. Mission alone is larger than Squamish and White Rock put together.

That said, extra WCE capacity and an extension to Abbotsford should definitely be on the Transport 2050 list.



We had BC Rail for that until Campbell's Libs sold it to CN for chump change... and CN doesn't seem willing to share.

Comparing Montreal and Toronto to Vancouver is silly. Vancouver has more km of subway/metro/skytrain tracks that either of those two other regions. Once you normalize for population that is even more impressive. So yes, Vancouver does invest more in public transit that the other two major cities in Canada.

The BC Rail transaction has a contract that provide the provincial government the right to continue to run passenger service over those lines.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by casper

The BC Rail transaction has a contract that provide the provincial government the right to continue to run passenger service over those lines.

Good to know. Any chance they'll actually play ball? Or will it forever suffer from delays like the WCE does?

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Wait, What?

Vancouver is the 3rd largest CMA in Canada. How much more of a major city do you need to be?

Kelowna is the 3rd largest city in BC. Anybody who suggests that they have as much pull as the GVRD will be laughed out of the room.

Likewise, Vancouver can't be called a "major city" in the same breath as Toronto/Montreal/Europe/Asia/blah blah blah. Not enough political/economic/logistical strength to be analogous. Our league is Seattle and Portland and Calgary. I'm not seeing commuter rail to Olympia just yet, or any kind of massive rapid transit expansion like ours.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The money comes from the federal, provincial and municipal governments, just like EXO and GO.

You can make room. Properties may need to be bought up, water may need to be filled in. This is what modern major cities do.

Cost. Benefit. Ratio. Seeing the difficulty of just getting funding for UBC and Langley, adding another $2-3 billion to twin an already redundant line is just wasteful. Let's spend that effort on Coq-Mission or Mission-Chilliwack or something productive.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Good to know. Any chance they'll actually play ball? Or will it forever suffer from delays like the WCE does?

The Provincial Government has shown little interest in operating any passenger service on the old BC Rail lines.

When BC Rail was sold it was the trains and equipment not the actual rail line and land. That is still owned by the province and provided to CN under a lease.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Kelowna is the 3rd largest city in BC. Anybody who suggests that they have as much pull as the GVRD will be laughed out of the room.

Likewise, Vancouver can't be called a "major city" in the same breath as Toronto/Montreal/Europe/Asia/blah blah blah. Not enough political/economic/logistical strength to be analogous. Our league is Seattle and Portland and Calgary. I'm not seeing commuter rail to Olympia just yet, or any kind of massive rapid transit expansion like ours.



Cost. Benefit. Ratio. Seeing the difficulty of just getting funding for UBC and Langley, adding another $2-3 billion to twin an already redundant line is just wasteful. Let's spend that effort on Coq-Mission or Mission-Chilliwack or something productive.

Europe and Asia are not cities. Again

Seattle has its commuter rail service. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sounder_commuter_rail

Portland has very limited commuter rail.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WES_Commuter_Rail

All this stuff about comparing Vancouver to Toronto or Montreal is silly. Decisions on doing these type of projects in one city has very little impact on another. As I said earlier Vancouver has more km of skytrain track than either Toronto or Montreal do of metro track. Neither Toronto or Montreal are going to make billion dollar transit investment decision because Vancouver has a bigger system. The same with Vancouver, it is not killing transit projects because its system is larger than Toronto. These decision on are not related in any way.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Take it up with the OP: "Toronto, Montreal, Asia, Europe, Australia, etc." Just following the list.

Originally Posted by casper

Seattle has its commuter rail service. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sounder_commuter_rail

Portland has very limited commuter rail.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WES_Commuter_Rail

And we've got the WCE, which is in between Sounder and the WES; I'm pointing out that if we need to start a —-measuring contest, it's with them, and that it'd be meaningless because they're basically on the same level as we are. Agreed that such contests with Eastern Canada are completely unnecessary.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by casper

Comparing Montreal and Toronto to Vancouver is silly. Vancouver has more km of subway/metro/skytrain tracks that either of those two other regions. Once you normalize for population that is even more impressive. So yes, Vancouver does invest more in public transit that the other two major cities in Canada.

This is actually interesting. SkyTrain is really a hybrid commuter/Subway system... so once you include commuter rail into the mix it changes it a bit... but I wouldn't REALLY include the WCE as Go-level commuter service. It's fairly niche... and more akin to a long-distance bus that's faster due to it's constrained schedule.


I had always figured that although Vancouver has more rail, it covers a MUCH larger area, as Greater Vancouver is far larger than the City of Toronto.

However, after some ( admittedly crude ) measurements, it turns out that the TTC subway/SRT serves a larger area: 300 sq. km vs 280 sq. km. It's close enough, to be honest, to be roughly equivalent:





Both systems are missing a couple of pieces. For Vancouver, it's the Broadway Line. For Toronto, the equivalent might be the Downtown Relief Line.

The Eglinton Line is somewhat similar to the Surrey Line, not serving downtown.

They're opposite when it comes to priorities though. Vancouver it prioritizing its relief line ( the Broadway Subway ). Toronto is prioritizing its Eglinton Line. I haven't followed it recently, the DRL in Toronto was less concrete, somewhat like a future Hastings Line.

I think where Vancouver has a big advantage is in its station spacing. Toronto's subway stations are spaced out too closely for fast service.

As such, services like GO Transit are more important in Toronto. In Vancouver, a Commuter Line wouldn't save a lot of time over SkyTrain, which is both fast and pretty direct.

The WCE serves a need getting commuters who are FAR from the main highway into the city efficiently. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to see a Fraser Valley Express that connects Abbotsford, Langley, and Surrey to Vancouver, but I don't see any good corridors. I think we'll see HSR between Seattle and Vancouver before that happens... and my gut tells me it will follow the 99 through Richmond instead of through Surrey... with an initial terminus near the airport, and plans to extend underground to Vancouver.

A Rail ROW between South Surrey and Richmond would have fantastic benefits for Fraser Valley residents to access YVR and connect suburbs together.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

This is actually interesting. SkyTrain is really a hybrid commuter/Subway system... so once you include commuter rail into the mix it changes it a bit... but I wouldn't REALLY include the WCE as Go-level commuter service. It's fairly niche... and more akin to a long-distance bus that's faster due to it's constrained schedule.

.

There is the first mistake, thinking a 10 car bilevel passenger train that happens multiple times a day is not a commuter rail service. This line is akin to the Milton, Richmond Hill or Stouffviille lines of GO. BTW, there are 6 lines.

It isn't about all day both way frequent service. It is about having more transit options to get people out of their cars. Adding a line to Squamish and White Rock at the same frequency of the current WCE would really help do this.

WCE is not a niche, it is neglected.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

WCE is not a niche, it is neglected.

Everything is neglected. Let's build SkyTrain to the North Shore and down Hastings first; forget the 95, almost twice as many people board the SeaBus than the WCE. After those, we can most definitely consider extending to Abbotsford, or twinning the Coquitlam end of the line.

A White Rock branch might work, given a Scott Road or Newton station, but Squamish would be horrible value for money right now; Mission alone is home to more people than both towns put together.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Everything is neglected. Let's build SkyTrain to the North Shore and down Hastings first; forget the 95, almost twice as many people board the SeaBus than the WCE. After those, we can most definitely consider extending to Abbotsford, or twinning the Coquitlam end of the line.

A White Rock branch might work, given a Scott Road or Newton station, but Squamish would be horrible value for money right now; Mission alone is home to more people than both towns put together.

You say that now, but what would Mission be without the WCE? By putting those 2 other routes in, on existing track, it might make those places boom too.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You say that now, but what would Mission be without the WCE? By putting those 2 other routes in, on existing track, it might make those places boom too.

Mission would be much the same; it already had 80+ percent of its population when the WCE opened. It's still growing at the same rate. The train went there because the town was big, not the other way around.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Mission would be much the same; it already had 80+ percent of its population when the WCE opened. It's still growing at the same rate. The train went there because the town was big, not the other way around.

Ok, then run the train to Whistler. it could run more often and serve not only commuters, but vacationers too. One way serving commuters going into the city, the other way, people heading to the ski resorts.

Point is, Squamish and White Rock should have lines to them.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ok, then run the train to Whistler. it could run more often and serve not only commuters, but vacationers too. One way serving commuters going into the city, the other way, people heading to the ski resorts.

Point is, Squamish and White Rock should have lines to them.

Bruh, Whistler is as far as — Hope.

But okay, it has 8,200 visitors a day, so that plus the population is about 20k... plus Squamish is 38k... so all in all, we're spending several billion dollars on a catchment area the size of Campbell River. When we could be spending it on a SkyTrain - or two, depending on the final price - that'd get 3x the actual riders, on Day 1. Or an Abbotsford extension - 115k and right across the river.

Granted, Whistler's a better shot than an actual train to Hope, but right now it's just a mission statement. No pun intended.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Bruh, Whistler is as far as — Hope.

But okay, it has 8,200 visitors a day, so that plus the population is about 20k... plus Squamish is 38k... so all in all, we're spending several billion dollars on a catchment area the size of Campbell River. When we could be spending it on a SkyTrain - or two, depending on the final price - that'd have three times the actual riders on Day 1.

Granted, it's a better shot than an actual train to Hope, but right now it's just a mission statement. No pun intended.

Think of the Sea To Sky highway. Think of how dangerous it still is. Think of how many more people would go to somewhere like Whistler?

This forum is on heavy rail. That is something the Skytrain is not.

Heavy rail can solve housing affordability. Skytrain cannot.

Heavy rail is faster.
40 minutes by WCE, 53 minutes by Skytrain from Coquitlam Centre
26 minutes by WCE, 43 minutes by Skytrain from Moody Centre.

Ironically, if you were in Toronto, going to Union, GO is 18 minutes TTC Subways are 31 minutes from Main St station.

Once you admit that commuter rail is faster, you can start not having a neglected system. Once you admit commuter raiil should be expanded alongside other rapid transit modes, then you can get a hold of the high cost of living.

Maybe you live along Broadway and want a Skytrain to your home. For once, think of the area, not you.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Heavy rail can solve housing affordability. Skytrain cannot.

Heavy rail is faster.
40 minutes by WCE, 53 minutes by Skytrain from Coquitlam Centre
26 minutes by WCE, 43 minutes by Skytrain from Moody Centre.

Ironically, if you were in Toronto, going to Union, GO is 18 minutes TTC Subways are 31 minutes from Main St station.

Once you admit that commuter rail is faster, you can start not having a neglected system. Once you admit commuter raiil should be expanded alongside other rapid transit modes, then you can get a hold of the high cost of living.

Maybe you live along Broadway and want a Skytrain to your home. For once, think of the area, not you.

If you want to think of the area, you need to think of North Van's problems, or Hastings', or Surrey's. Each has upward of a hundred thousand potential riders that need a medium-capacity train with 1km stop spacing, high frequency and high reliability.

All you get with communter rail to Squamish or White Rock is a pretty line on a map to a small town. Two thousand riders a day, headways of once or twice an hour, and either a $5 billion tag or trains waiting forever for freight to pass. That solves the housing crisis about as well as a hyperloop to Kelowna - when was the last time any housing was built beside a WCE station? Don't let your obsession and envy cloud your judgement.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If you want to think of the area, you need to think of North Van's problems, or Hastings', or Surrey's. Each has upward of a hundred thousands riders that need a medium-capacity train with 1km stop spacing, high frequency and high reliability.

All you get with communter rail to Squamish or White Rock is a pretty line on a map to a small town that only gets two thousand riders a day, runs once or twice an hour, and either costs $5 billion or ends up waiting forever for freight trains to pass. That solves the housing crisis about as well as a hyperloop to Kelowna.

You are quite naive.

The line going towards Sqamish passes through North Van. Several stops, including one at the Seabus terminal could be added.

The line going to White Rock passes through Surrey.

And the current line could have more stops.

It is sad that you really are not understanding this. What is worse is that you are doing it on the wrong forum.