DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[CastleScott]

^ Yeah should have reminded Corey that the Warriors are an Oakland team moving over to a new venue in San Francisco. The Sacramento Kings play in the downtown Golden One Center-thanks for the correction. Btw the ideas for this downtown entertainment came from some place-likely Denver (some years back Sacramento sent out a team of consultants to look into downtown entertainment and of course Denver the poster boy for that).

[BG918]

Speaking of new arenas when do you think Kroenke & Co will want Denver to pony up for a new Pepsi Center? In all of the River Mile plans it's still shown in its current location. I've always thought if/when they do replace it they should build a new arena right on Speer/Wewatta to better connect it to the Union Station/LoDo areas. There looks to be enough room to build a new facility and then tear down Pepsi like what they did with the old Mile High Stadium. It could be really cool to have it between Auraria Pkwy and Wewatta and somehow incorporate the old brick buildings along Auraria into the design.

River Mile plan (full build-out)


https://sararch.com/projects/in-progress/river-mile-master-plan/

[mhays]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Because those are all new buildings that were built with parking. Which, shockingly, reduces the pressure on on-street spaces.

Blasphemy, I know.

Okay, exorcism complete. Back to the progressive urbanist party line. IF YOU DO NOT BUILD NEW PARKING THE CARS WILL DISAPPEAR AND PEOPLE WILL USE ALTERNATIVE MODES. NO NEW PARKING!

In the more urban cities, the main dynamic is that developers build less parking because there's less demand for it.

But there's also a dynamic of nudging people to not have cars. The developer tries to guess the actual demand, and exceed it a little. But they also charge for parking every month. People who have to pay for parking try to avoid using it. Street parking will also cost money, so isn't a great everyday alternative. The result is a cycle.

Some buildings don't have parking at all. This tends to be buildings full of small units (where parking would be a large ratio vs. the unit rent) on small lots (where the geometry of parking is tough).

People with cars tend to gravitate toward the buildings that give it away for free. And people without, plus the ones who choose to pay, pick the buildings with less.

[corey]

Yeah, I should have typed Kings instead of Warriors for Sacramento. The Kings arena is a great model for a new downtown arena for other cities to look at when planning similar projects.

[CastleScott]

^ That’s ok Corey I’m happy we corresponded on here.

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by BG918

Speaking of new arenas when do you think Kroenke & Co will want Denver to pony up for a new Pepsi Center?


https://sararch.com/projects/in-progress/river-mile-master-plan/

Good question!

And I'm 100% sure the answer is YES! At least, there's no reason why, like almost every other professional sports owner in the country, Kroenke wouldn't make a go at getting the taxpayers to pay for a new arena. It's well established that having someone else pay for all of your principle capital expenditures will really help make your business more profitable.

Would Denver pay for it? Would the taxpayers approve it? I'm not sure it could pass in Denver. I see a few options:

1. Kroenke pays for all of the cost of the new arena structure, but gets some significant commitment from the City to pay some contributing costs, such as for infrastructure improvements.

2. Kroenke and city agree on a split, with Kroenke city paying somewhere between 40 to 60 percent (similar to what's been done in other cities).

3. City goes the "stadium district" route and argues any tax payer subsidy needs to be metro wide, not just Denver.

I'm not sure how much leverage Kroenke has. Would he move the facility outside of Denver proper? Would he move both Nuggets and Avalanche to a new state/Canada?

Would any Denver suburb "step up" in Denver's place and come up with enough cash to get him to move? (This has happened in other cities). Denver 'burbs are pretty fragmented, and with the possible exception of Aurora, I don't know that any one of them has the means to do that (and would their taxpayers support it?). Would moving to Aurora (or Centennial, or Lone Tree) make sense from an attendance perspective ? (Probably not).

Moving out of state of course is the classic threat that pro sports owners use to "extract" financial payments from government to supplement their business. Not sure how realistic that is for the Nuggets/Avalanche.

To me a reasonable option is for "some" taxpayer support for a facility that would get utilized for many different purposes, with Kroenke paying at least 50%. Of course, if local government(s) can get Kroenke to pay for everything then great.

Also, when will the Pepsi Center need to be replaced? Need is in the eye of the beholder, and no doubt the Pepsi Center with maintenance could continue to serve for another generation, though typically that's not how professional sport owners think (already, two baseball stadiums newer than Coors Field have been replaced!). Also, Pepsi Center is already at the age (20 years) at which it's predecessor - McNichols Arena - was replaced by the Pepsi Center. Though the Rockies just signed up for a 30 years lease on a Coors Field that is even older than the Pepsi Center, suffice to say "Pepsi Center is no Coors Field."

The unique situation of River Mile plays into this too.... potentially Kroenke would have the ability to build a new arena that includes very substantial office, hotel, and even residential, which potentially changes the $$ math on what makes sense as far as location. In fact, this is exactly what Kroenke has done with the new LA Rams stadium @ Hollywood Park:

https://www.bdcnetwork.com/sports-teams-...-are-using-sports-stadiums-their-anchors

The 70,240-seat stadium on 60 acres will be home field for the Los Angeles Rams and Los Angeles Chargers pro football franchises. The facility would be expandable to 100,000 seats for mega events like the Olympics. And it will anchor the Los Angeles Stadium and Entertainment District (LASED), a redevelopment of the old Hollywood Park racetrack that’s being spearheaded by the Rams’ owner, developer Stan Kroenke, whose St. Louis-based Kroenke Group acquired the entire property in 2015.

The estimated cost of this privately financed complex has climbed to at least $5 billion. Plans for the district include 890,000 sf of retail space, 780,000 sf of office space, 300 hotel rooms, 2,500 residences, a 6,000-seat performing arts venue, a TV studio, restaurants, conference spaces, and 25 acres of public parks.




Denver isn't LA. On the other hand the River Mile is a much more central and urban location than Hollywood Park, so potentially a new arena properly integrated with the mixed use of the rest of River Mile could really have some synergy.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

I like his projects but I just recently returned from my honeymoon in Italy so maybe my interest in that European-style is temporarily elevated. I'll take the Belvedere over Civic Lofts every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I like it, too, but mainly because it provides a highly different form/finish than anything else that ever gets built in boxy Denver!

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

Good question!

And I'm 100% sure the answer is YES! At least, there's no reason why, like almost every other professional sports owner in the country, Kroenke wouldn't make a go at getting the taxpayers to pay for a new arena. It's well established that having someone else pay for all of your principle capital expenditures will really help make your business more profitable.

Would Denver pay for it? Would the taxpayers approve it? I'm not sure it could pass in Denver.

If the City were smart, and I generally am skeptical that government is smart, they would have tied the neighborhood plan for River Mile to Pepsi Center's future. Why they aren't doing that is beyond me given Kroenke's past. He's moved a team before and he'll do it again just for money. The man is so greedy, he can't even figure out a deal with the big three cable providers so his fan base can watch their teams. The City should absolutely tie any future re/up-zonings of Kroenke owned land near Pepsi Center to long term financial status of Pepsi Center and our teams staying in Denver. The upzoning alone would likely satisy Kroenke, but the City is too dumb to make that connection...I am kinda worried to be honest. Maybe unwarranted, but the man has a terrible history and he will do what makes him the most money - he hasn't an altruistic thought whatsoever.

[CherryCreek]

Interesting - Colorado AG drops out of suit to block Sprint - T-mobile merger with a promise from Dish to base its new mobile business in Colorado and hire 2,0000 workers.

Come on Dish! How about TC-2 for your new trophy headquarters!!

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2019/10/21/dish-colorado-wireless-hq-ag-lawsuit.html

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

Interesting - Colorado AG drops out of suit to block Sprint - T-mobile merger with a promise from Dish to base its new mobile business in Colorado and hire 2,0000 workers.

Come on Dish! How about TC-2 for your new trophy headquarters!!

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2019/10/21/dish-colorado-wireless-hq-ag-lawsuit.html

I read an article today indicating that the positions for the wireless company would be at the riverfront location in Littleton for at least seven years.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

And I'm 100% sure the answer is YES! At least, there's no reason why, like almost every other professional sports owner in the country, Kroenke wouldn't make a go at getting the taxpayers to pay for a new arena. It's well established that having someone else pay for all of your principle capital expenditures will really help make your business more profitable.

FYI, the Pepsi Center was privately financed and built - but not by Kroenke.

Plus, the fun link you provided demonstrates KSE is privately funding/building the new $5 billion Ram's Stadium so why would you think Kroenke would want to entangle himself with government funding and lots of messy stuff?

When the CPV site for the Pepsi Center was identified it was a fricken Superfund Site so an arrangement was worked out with Ascent Entertainment (now Liberty Media). https://renewdenver.org/projects/pepsi-center/

In November 1997, the City acquired an approximately 52-acre site in the CPV from the Southern Pacific Railroad, part of which is now the Pepsi Center. The acquisition enabled the City to keep the Denver Nuggets and the Colorado Avalanche in Denver and to fulfill the vision laid out for the CPV by Mayors Currigan and McNichols decades before. After much negotiation, the City reached agreement with Ascent Entertainment Group to develop the Pepsi Center and keep the teams in Denver for a 30-year contract term.

What deal was worked out between the parties?

Following expansion of the urban renewal area, DURA entered into an agreement with Ascent to provide TIF assistance to fund site demolition, environmental remediation, and other site-wide improvements totaling $36.5 million. In addition, DURA disbursed another $4.5 million in City funds for construction of needed public infrastructure. As a result of this unique public-private collaboration among the City, DURA, and the developer, rehabilitation and reuse of the former Rice Yards site was enabled and the path for development of the $160 million Pepsi Center was laid.

Here's another interesting look-back. https://www.mortenson.com/sports/projects/pepsi-center

Since constructing a brand-new arena was the more costly option, Mortenson worked diligently to reduce the cost of the Pepsi Center. At the time, Pepsi Center was slated to be the second largest concrete framed structure in Colorado. Due to a lack of competitive bids for the concrete work, Mortenson self-performed this work and saved the owner $5M. The extra effort to divide the concession package into smaller subcontracts, reduced the overall cost for this scope of work while providing more local opportunities. The biggest cost savings resulted from compressing the 26-month construction schedule into a fast-paced 19 months, saving the owner over $1.2M in construction costs.

The CPV masterplan among other things shows 7th street as a primary connection between Auraria, Pepsi Center and Elitch's/River Mile. I don't doubt that at some point in time KSE will redevelop their land but I wouldn't hold my breath; it could easily be a decade or two.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by laniroj

If the City were smart, and I generally am skeptical that government is smart, they would have tied the neighborhood plan for River Mile to Pepsi Center's future. Why they aren't doing that is beyond me given Kroenke's past. He's moved a team before and he'll do it again just for money. The man is so greedy, he can't even figure out a deal with the big three cable providers so his fan base can watch their teams. The City should absolutely tie any future re/up-zonings of Kroenke owned land near Pepsi Center to long term financial status of Pepsi Center and our teams staying in Denver. The upzoning alone would likely satisy Kroenke, but the City is too dumb to make that connection...I am kinda worried to be honest. Maybe unwarranted, but the man has a terrible history and he will do what makes him the most money - he hasn't an altruistic thought whatsoever.

The Pepsi Center and Elitch's are two separate properties and ownership - notwithstanding KSE's minority share of Elitch's.

I would have a totally different opinion about KSE except for their stubbornness with cable providers. I suspect they're holding a losing poker hand here.

I don't want to demean St Louis by calling it a cesspool but they're not the best place for sports. Great Baseball town and Good Hockey town but the Rams were the 2nd football team to pack their bags. Kroenke did give St Louis the opportunity to substantially help fund improvements but nothing could be worked out. Admittedly Kroenke had already acquired the land in Inglewood which was large enough for a new stadium but it was good site for many things. Are you aware of any other teams that Kroenke has moved?

BTW, on a lark and going on ten years ago when I moved I cut the chord, initially as an experiment and haven't looked back. For the last eight years I've been free-streaming sports content on my desktop. For the avid Avalanche fans many have purchased a VPN (they're cheap) and located it in either Mexico City of somewhere in Europe, bought the NHL package for streaming and use an HDMI to link to their fancy tee vee monitor. If you're interested in free streaming let me know as it's changed a bit this year. Reddit which has hosted the sites for years ran into repeated copyright issues with the NBA and a sort of sub-reddit is being used for the NBA and NFL now. Hockey is still hosted by Reddit.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by laniroj

If the City were smart, and I generally am skeptical that government is smart, they would have tied the neighborhood plan for River Mile to Pepsi Center's future. Why they aren't doing that is beyond me given Kroenke's past. He's moved a team before and he'll do it again just for money. The man is so greedy, he can't even figure out a deal with the big three cable providers so his fan base can watch their teams. The City should absolutely tie any future re/up-zonings of Kroenke owned land near Pepsi Center to long term financial status of Pepsi Center and our teams staying in Denver. The upzoning alone would likely satisy Kroenke, but the City is too dumb to make that connection...I am kinda worried to be honest. Maybe unwarranted, but the man has a terrible history and he will do what makes him the most money - he hasn't an altruistic thought whatsoever.

Considering the City is in the process of building a new 10,000 seat arena on the National Western Center campus, I doubt we’d want to build a new 18,000 seat arena right next door.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by CastleScott

^ That’s ok Corey I’m happy we corresponded on here.

Just recently I happened to think of you a couple of times wondering how you were doing and if you'd come back around so it's nice to see you.

This site has enough A-holes like me so its always nice to have someone who is always pleasant.

BTW, aside from the Nuggets, Kings are my next favorite NBA team. They are tons of fun to watch.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Considering the City is in the process of building a new 10,000 seat arena on the National Western Center campus, I doubt we’d want to build a new 18,000 seat arena right next door.

Which is exactly why the Kronk might just up and leave with TWO teams...thankfully Denver is a good sports market, so we have that going for us.

[CherryCreek]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

FYI, the Pepsi Center was privately financed and built - but not by Kroenke.

Plus, the fun link you provided demonstrates KSE is privately funding/building the new $5 billion Ram's Stadium so why would you think Kroenke would want to entangle himself with government funding and lots of messy stuff?

When the CPV site for the Pepsi Center was identified it was a fricken Superfund Site so an arrangement was worked out with Ascent Entertainment (now Liberty Media). https://renewdenver.org/projects/pepsi-center/

What deal was worked out between the parties?

Here's another interesting look-back. https://www.mortenson.com/sports/projects/pepsi-center

The CPV masterplan among other things shows 7th street as a primary connection between Auraria, Pepsi Center and Elitch's/River Mile. I don't doubt that at some point in time KSE will redevelop their land but I wouldn't hold my breath; it could easily be a decade or two.

It's true that Pepsi Center was built with private funds and it's certainly possible that any replacement would be built with private funds. But in pro sports, that's the exception and not the rule. If Kroenke would actually do that, then kudos to him (it was worth it in the lucrative LA market, not so sure the same logic applies to Denver).

The 30 year commitment was something I didn't' know about, good information. 30 years would be 2027 - so that might well be a potential timeline to be thinking about replacement (not that far off, given lead times).

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

It's true that Pepsi Center was built with private funds and it's certainly possible that any replacement would be built with private funds. But in pro sports, that's the exception and not the rule. If Kroenke would actually do that, then kudos to him (it was worth it in the lucrative LA market, not so sure the same logic applies to Denver).

The 30 year commitment was something I didn't' know about, good information. 30 years would be 2027 - so that might well be a potential timeline to be thinking about replacement (not that far off, given lead times).

Soon as a read your comment I had to do a quick search as that 30 years didn't sound right; I was thinking 25 years. I found a fun piece by the DBJ that detailed the sale from Ascent to Kroenke's in July of 2000. Fun read and here are a few highlights: https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2000/07/24/story4.html

The documents are mostly full of guarantees the city extracted from the Kroenkes to keep the arrangement it hammered out over three grueling years with previous owner Ascent Entertainment Group Inc. of Denver. City officials especially want to make sure the Colorado Avalanche hockey team and the Denver Nuggets of the National Basketball Association stay in Denver for at least 25 years. A mainstay of that commitment is that the city controls the 50 acres of land in the downtown Central Platte Valley where the teams' home, the Pepsi Center, is located.

That puts the ending date in 2022 - from the original Ascent commitment. KSE doesn't owned the ground; that's on a land lease.

Ascent bought that land ... then deeded the ground to the city for 25 years and became a rent-paying tenant. The rent helps make up for the city's loss of seat tax revenues from McNichols Sports Arena, which the city owned and was torn down after the teams moved to the Pepsi Center.

Here's a few more interesting details:

Liberty Media is simply keeping the 6.5 percent of the Pepsi Center it bought from Ascent in 1997, according to deal documents. That year, the Englewood-based media company became something of a white knight for Ascent. Liberty coughed up $15 million for the $180 million Pepsi Center's construction and a piece of the venue, as well as to keep Avalanche captain Joe Sakic from being wooed away by the New York Rangers.

To your points, it's entirely possible that KSE might want some infrastructure help plus I believe more intensive cleanup may be needed to accommodate any residential construction. So there's always a chance for a little back scratching.

I had previously read that in 2022 Kroenke has an option to buy the land for One American Dollar, probably for title purposes.

[Ich]

Didn’t they just sign a deal to stay in Denver until 2040? They as in the Avalanche and Nuggets?

Think they would be build a new stadium before then? Pepsi Center looks to be aging well.

[jimijam35]

https://www.denverpost.com/2019/05/02/denver-nuggets-colorado-avalanche-2040/


yeah its 2040- nothing wrong inside pepsi center , maybe some work needs be done outside-

[DenvertoLA]

is there any update on Kenect Denver? I really thought that one had legs.