General Update/Rumour thread [Suburban Ottawa]

[acottawa]

That map really shows how inefficient the 4 school board system is. There are 8 schools on the same street.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That map really shows how inefficient the 4 school board system is. There are 8 schools on the same street.

Yes for sure. I was so shocked when I first moved to Ottawa and elementary kids even in dense areas of the city were bussed to school. The French English thing is crazy here as well as almost all the "English" kids are in French Immersion at least at the elementary level.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes for sure. I was so shocked when I first moved to Ottawa and elementary kids even in dense areas of the city were bussed to school. The French English thing is crazy here as well as almost all the "English" kids are in French Immersion at least at the elementary level.

Catholic vs. "public" too.

[CityTech]

The English-French thing makes sense, they're literally separate languages of education. But Catholic schools are stupid and really shouldn't exist.

One issue is that it results in the minority school boards (the French ones and the English Catholic one) getting too large a share of resources resulting in OCDSB being stretched too thin. Notice that OCDSB is only getting 3 out of 7 elementary schools and only 1 out of 3 high schools on that map despite having 60% of the total number of kids. You constantly hear about public schools in the suburbs bursting at the seams, you never hear that about catholic schools or French schools. It's really not fair to the majority.

[acottawa]

At the very least they could be co-located at the same site, sharing sports fields, libraries, auto shop, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

At the very least they could be co-located at the same site, sharing sports fields, libraries, auto shop, etc.

There is a lot of talk about this, but not sure how much concrete progress has been made.

As a first stage you'd likely see the English boards share with each other, and the French boards doing the same.

[Acajack]

It's also quite wasteful on an administrative level, since each board has a team working on transportation led by a director, a team that handles property and facilities led by a director, a strategic planning team, a communications team, an HR team, etc.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is a lot of talk about this, but not sure how much concrete progress has been made.

As a first stage you'd likely see the English boards share with each other, and the French boards doing the same.

I'm actually opposed to this, as I see it as distracting from the real goal which is to eliminate Catholic education altogether.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I'm actually opposed to this, as I see it as distracting from the real goal which is to eliminate Catholic education altogether.

And I suppose the Catholic school boards are aware that a lot of people have them in their sights, and will work towards these types of "efficiencies" in order to try and stave off the threat to their continued existence.

I agree that even the most optimal level of efficiency will not change the unequal and anachronistic nature of Ontario's Catholic school set-up.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's also quite wasteful on an administrative level, since each board has a team working on transportation led by a director, a team that handles property and facilities led by a director, a strategic planning team, a communications team, an HR team, etc.

My wife is part of the IT group of one of the school boards and the stories she tells of the inefficiencies are unbelievable.

It would be political suicide for a candidate or political party to suggest just having one school board or eliminate the catholic school board.

I would love to get rid of it and I think for many catholics they send their kids there because they went etc and their religious affiliation is not that strong.

In many neighbourhoods the number of school buses running around and the low % of kids walking to school is quite depressing.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's also quite wasteful on an administrative level, since each board has a team working on transportation led by a director, a team that handles property and facilities led by a director, a strategic planning team, a communications team, an HR team, etc.

To be fair, transportation is run by a separate agency that serves all of the boards, so there is an efficiency there.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by CityTech

The English-French thing makes sense, they're literally separate languages of education. But Catholic schools are stupid and really shouldn't exist.

One issue is that it results in the minority school boards (the French ones and the English Catholic one) getting too large a share of resources resulting in OCDSB being stretched too thin. Notice that OCDSB is only getting 3 out of 7 elementary schools and only 1 out of 3 high schools on that map despite having 60% of the total number of kids. You constantly hear about public schools in the suburbs bursting at the seams, you never hear that about catholic schools or French schools. It's really not fair to the majority.

I actually see a fair bit of value in giving people choice of school systems within the publicly-funded system. There are differences in focus between the boards. For instance, the Catholic board tends to put more resources into educational assistants and special needs. Multiple schools within the same community makes sense from that perspective.

I don't think your comment on resources is accurate. All school boards operate under the same funding formula, so the other boards are not siphoning resources from the public system. French and Catholic schools in the suburbs operate under the same class size formulas and are just as likely to be bursting at the seams as public schools.

I think the legitimate point of contention is administrative overlap. There are lots of functions that could be consolidated without threatening Catholic or French education. There already is a fair bit of sharing of sports fields that works pretty well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

To be fair, transportation is run by a separate agency that serves all of the boards, so there is an efficiency there.

Thanks for pointing that out. Guess I was out of touch! I don't think that's always been the case but you're right that it's a step in the right direction.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thanks for pointing that out. Guess I was out of touch! I don't think that's always been the case but you're right that it's a step in the right direction.

No, it's relatively new. I just looked it up - at least in Ottawa, it began in 2007.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

I actually see a fair bit of value in giving people choice of school systems within the publicly-funded system. There are differences in focus between the boards. For instance, the Catholic board tends to put more resources into educational assistants and special needs. Multiple schools within the same community makes sense from that perspective.

I don't think your comment on resources is accurate. All school boards operate under the same funding formula, so the other boards are not siphoning resources from the public system. French and Catholic schools in the suburbs operate under the same class size formulas and are just as likely to be bursting at the seams as public schools.

I think the legitimate point of contention is administrative overlap. There are lots of functions that could be consolidated without threatening Catholic or French education. There already is a fair bit of sharing of sports fields that works pretty well.

I generally agree with you, but the inequity of having schools with public money for Catholics but the same denied to all other groups would still remain.

That aspect of it is extremely hard to defend.

Note that I am totally conscious of being hypocritical on this one: if I lived in Ontario there is still a 95% chance that I would have sent my kids to French Catholic schools.

Though I never would have marched down the streets or joined the hue and cry if the government had wanted to abolish that system.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by phil235

To be fair, transportation is run by a separate agency that serves all of the boards, so there is an efficiency there.

Not entirely- the OSTA only serves the English boards- OCDSB and OCSB.

I'm not sure if the french boards have a join transportation service.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Not entirely- the OSTA only serves the English boards- OCDSB and OCSB.

I'm not sure if the french boards have a join transportation service.

Yes they do. There is one for the City of Ottawa for both French boards.

There is also another one for the two French boards in Eastern Ontario outside Ottawa city limits (places like Rockland, Casselman, etc.)

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by phil235

I actually see a fair bit of value in giving people choice of school systems within the publicly-funded system. There are differences in focus between the boards. For instance, the Catholic board tends to put more resources into educational assistants and special needs. Multiple schools within the same community makes sense from that perspective.

I don't think your comment on resources is accurate. All school boards operate under the same funding formula, so the other boards are not siphoning resources from the public system. French and Catholic schools in the suburbs operate under the same class size formulas and are just as likely to be bursting at the seams as public schools.

I think the legitimate point of contention is administrative overlap. There are lots of functions that could be consolidated without threatening Catholic or French education. There already is a fair bit of sharing of sports fields that works pretty well.

I disagree with having overlapping schools in the same community. It allows for socioeconomic segregation, whereas we should be encouraging all kids from the community regardless of background to be together in the same classroom to build social harmony and cohesiveness. It also reduces geographic efficiency because by having multiple school systems in parallel each school has to draw from a larger area to fill its classrooms, significantly reducing the number of kids who can walk to school. The neighbourhood school is a dying concept thanks to all this streaming of kids into separate classrooms.

I also disagree with having schools boards at all. I think all schools should just be run by the Ministry of Education directly, with each school having a defined school zone border, and if you live in that school's border, you go to that school. Every single kid from the same area goes to the same school, no ifs, ands, or buts.

If the Catholic schools have more resources for special needs as you claim, that's unfair to any special needs kids who aren't Catholic, because they basically have to choose between going to a school following a religion they don't believe in, or getting worse service. That's not fair.

It also provides an unfair job advantage to Roman Catholic teachers because they have have two school systems they can work at whereas other teachers only have one.

And you're wrong about the class size thing. The formula is partially fixed, partially per student. Because Catholic and French schools have smaller enrollments, they end up getting more schools. Notice how Ottawa has almost the same number of Catholic high schools as public high schools despite the public system having more than twice the number of students. Notice how in the Fernbank community, the OCDSB and OCSB are both getting the same number of schools (3 elementary and 1 secondary) despite OCDSB having more double the enrollment. The newer suburbs are full of areas where public school kids are forced to attend Catholic school because they have more schools in the area. Stittsville is only just getting its first public high school now, but they've had a Catholic high school since 1999. It's extremely unfair.

I support the immediate elimination of the Catholic school system, but if we can't do that, we can at least stop giving them unfair advantages.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I disagree with having overlapping schools in the same community. It allows for socioeconomic segregation, whereas we should be encouraging all kids from the community regardless of background to be together in the same classroom to build social harmony and cohesiveness. It also reduces geographic efficiency because by having multiple school systems in parallel each school has to draw from a larger area to fill its classrooms, significantly reducing the number of kids who can walk to school. The neighbourhood school is a dying concept thanks to all this streaming of kids into separate classrooms.

I also disagree with having schools boards at all. I think all schools should just be run by the Ministry of Education directly, with each school having a defined school zone border, and if you live in that school's border, you go to that school. Every single kid from the same area goes to the same school, no ifs, ands, or buts.

If the Catholic schools have more resources for special needs as you claim, that's unfair to any special needs kids who aren't Catholic, because they basically have to choose between going to a school following a religion they don't believe in, or getting worse service. That's not fair.

It also provides an unfair job advantage to Roman Catholic teachers because they have have two school systems they can work at whereas other teachers only have one.

And you're wrong about the class size thing. The formula is partially fixed, partially per student. Because Catholic and French schools have smaller enrollments, they end up getting more schools. Notice how Ottawa has almost the same number of Catholic high schools as public high schools despite the public system having more than twice the number of students. Notice how in the Fernbank community, the OCDSB and OCSB are both getting the same number of schools (3 elementary and 1 secondary) despite OCDSB having more double the enrollment. The newer suburbs are full of areas where public school kids are forced to attend Catholic school because they have more schools in the area. Stittsville is only just getting its first public high school now, but they've had a Catholic high school since 1999. It's extremely unfair.

I support the immediate elimination of the Catholic school system, but if we can't do that, we can at least stop giving them unfair advantages.

Well, in terms of numbers, the public board has 25 high schools versus 15 for the Catholic system, so it's not really the same number. The public board also has 117 elementary schools to the Catholic board's 69 schools, so the odds are that most people have a public school closer to them.

I'm also not sure that smaller schools are the big advantage that you suggest. They tend to have less resources, less extra-curriculars, less elaborate facilities etc. I have many teachers in my family, and some were adamant that elementary schools with 500+ kids were the ideal size. I never really bought that, but it's definitely a debatable proposition.

School boards have a fair bit of discretion as to the size of their schools. Have a look at the Toronto Public Board - they have chosen to go with smaller high schools than other boards, despite having higher enrollment. Likewise, in Southwestern Ontario, Catholic High Schools tend to be bigger than those in the public boards.

It is definitely true that independent school boards are going to make different choices about how they allocate resources. But I don't think that it is logical to conclude that means that the system is unfair. And it's definitely not a Catholic/Public issue - it really depends on the region and the board.

I agree with a lot of your points on public education. I just think that the real enemy of public education is the growing enrollment of private schools. And I think that the existence of the Catholic Board, with more emphasis on student wellness and values is helpful in providing another choice for people who are considering private schools. At least annecdotaly, Catholic schools are full of Muslim students and others who might have been in private schools otherwise.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I disagree with having overlapping schools in the same community. It allows for socioeconomic segregation, whereas we should be encouraging all kids from the community regardless of background to be together in the same classroom to build social harmony and cohesiveness. It also reduces geographic efficiency because by having multiple school systems in parallel each school has to draw from a larger area to fill its classrooms, significantly reducing the number of kids who can walk to school. The neighbourhood school is a dying concept thanks to all this streaming of kids into separate classrooms.

I also disagree with having schools boards at all. I think all schools should just be run by the Ministry of Education directly, with each school having a defined school zone border, and if you live in that school's border, you go to that school. Every single kid from the same area goes to the same school, no ifs, ands, or buts.

If the Catholic schools have more resources for special needs as you claim, that's unfair to any special needs kids who aren't Catholic, because they basically have to choose between going to a school following a religion they don't believe in, or getting worse service. That's not fair.

It also provides an unfair job advantage to Roman Catholic teachers because they have have two school systems they can work at whereas other teachers only have one.

And you're wrong about the class size thing. The formula is partially fixed, partially per student. Because Catholic and French schools have smaller enrollments, they end up getting more schools. Notice how Ottawa has almost the same number of Catholic high schools as public high schools despite the public system having more than twice the number of students. Notice how in the Fernbank community, the OCDSB and OCSB are both getting the same number of schools (3 elementary and 1 secondary) despite OCDSB having more double the enrollment. The newer suburbs are full of areas where public school kids are forced to attend Catholic school because they have more schools in the area. Stittsville is only just getting its first public high school now, but they've had a Catholic high school since 1999. It's extremely unfair.

I support the immediate elimination of the Catholic school system, but if we can't do that, we can at least stop giving them unfair advantages.

I would agree with these points, though the francophone schools must remain for constitutional and historical reasons, just like anglophone schools should remain in Quebec.

The difference between my neighbourhood in Gatineau and those of family members who live in Ottawa or other parts of Ontario is quite striking. In my area you basically have 98-99% of the kids who go to the same elementary school which is right in the middle of the neighbourhood. (We have few kids who go to English school here - things might be a bit different in an area like Aylmer.) Our school had zero school buses, which is very typical for francophone elementary schools in Gatineau. My kids who are teenagers today and are no longer at that school, basically know everyone who is roughly their age in the entire neighbourhood. And we as parents know a whole bunch of the parents too.