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  #13081  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2019, 4:10 AM
Rico Rico is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I've started reading the articles regarding the REM's capacity and so far, they seem alarmist. Just more groups who are trying to discredit light-metros in favour of streetcars.

Analysis of the "Le Reflet" article.

Cost

The "study" criticizes the high cost of the elevated and underground sections however, this is still far more economical than Montréal's tradition of building fully underground subways. In fact, the REM is the cheapest fully grade separated rapid transit project in Canada per kilometer.

Capacity

Park and rides will be full. As they should be. No use in building parking lots larger than what they need to be. We don't want everyone to drive to the rail stations. As long as suburban stations are fed by a solid bus service, it's a win.

The "Skytrain" technology is not limited in length. Vancouver and Montréal (through CDPQ) have chosen the length based on there need. The lack of drivers increases capacity significantly. Ottawa's trains have the same capacity with 20 extra meters because we have 4 driver cabs. Ultimate might be higher due to the 120 meter platforms downtown. "Skytrain" technology results in equal capacity with shorter trains and platforms.

Capacity of 600 with "theoretical" capacity of 780 is, I agree, ridiculous. 780 is likely a crush load that is beyond anything that could be considered acceptable.

As for the idea that the capacity will be at its max from day one, that's just incorrect. Initially, the trains will pass every 2.5 minutes, while automated metros can be as frequent as 1.5 minutes, easy. That's a 60% increase. I don't know what AMT's capacity is/was, but the level of service is far superior with REM.

Light-Metro vs Tramway

This is a subject that comes up over and over. Tramways encourage local travel. You know what else does that? Buses. For much, much cheaper.

Had they built a Tramway instead of the REM, the line could not have been 67 kilometers. Capacity would have been much lower. It would have been vulnerable to Montréal's crazy traffic woes and accidents. This project is not about local travel but getting the masses to Montréal and back quickly and efficiently. It's about reducing pressure on the Métro. About reducing congestion, not adding to it. It's also about better access to the airport from all over the metropolitan area.

https://www.lereflet.qc.ca/etude-remet-question-pertinence-rem/
A lot of the criticism I have read is about the use of the deux mountaine line for the REM. Basically through REM a for profit company is getting a multi-billion dollar asset for free. To add salt to the wound that portion of the REM will have less theoretical capacity than the line it replaces.
     
     
  #13082  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2019, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Buses don't do that unless they are frequent (Ottawa's aren't), faster than ambient traffic (ditto), and reliable (ditto.)

Bus routes also don't induce development patterns like fixed rail transit does, and especially not in Ottawa where we will happily contort our bus routes like a piece of silly putty to provide service to poorly-located and poorly-designed public facilities and heavily subsidize those bad "coverage" services, rather than locating and designing things along existing transit routes in the first place.

Buses have their place: in the suburbs, mostly. Ottawa's urban mainstreets and older neighbourhoods are going to suffer, and badly, if we rebuild the city around a suburban-oriented light metro, yet insist that diesel buses are the transit solution for both older urban areas that have high transit demand and transit support, and for postwar suburban dormitory communities.

The suffering is going to be swifter and more complete if we insist, as OC Transpo has been moving towards for the last decade, on having local bus transit service levels in the urban area that are no better than they are in Orleans.
I agree with you that Ottawa's transit service in the urban area is terrible. With an investment of a few dozen million dollars for bus lanes, proper transit stops and more buses (electric)/drivers for increased frequency, we could have a proper bus network serving the urban area.

What I am saying is that there is nothing a bus can't do that a tramway can. It's not worth wasting a billion+ dollars and cause years of traffic (car and transit) disruptions on a tramway that would max out capacity in just a few years.

Make the necessary improvements using electric bus technology, build up ridership and then jump straight to subways when the volume warrants. The exact same way Vancouver does it with their B-Lines.

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Originally Posted by Rico View Post
A lot of the criticism I have read is about the use of the deux mountaine line for the REM. Basically through REM a for profit company is getting a multi-billion dollar asset for free. To add salt to the wound that portion of the REM will have less theoretical capacity than the line it replaces.
Reminds me of Trillium. We're doubling capacity with longer trains as part of Stage 2, but service won't be improved whatsoever since the dismal 12 minute frequency will be maintained. Double tracking to increase frequency would have been a better investment than doubling the capacity through longer trains. REM is better than the current Deux-Montagnes because it will offer proper all-day, frequent urban transit.

I suspect that the only reason the City of Ottawa went with longer trains as opposed to more frequent service (through double tracking) is to save on driver salaries.
     
     
  #13083  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2019, 5:47 PM
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Despite Ottawa's LRT woes, experts say don't judge right away

By: The Canadian Press
Published: Oct 15, 2019 7:52am EDT


The sleek red-and-white train sat beside a platform at the western end of Ottawa's new light rail line on Friday morning, shadowed from the autumn sun as riders walked aboard.

And then the train on the $2.1-billion line did something it hadn't done in a morning rush hour in days: It ran smoothly.

The commuter chaos – thousands of riders stranded on platforms, emergency buses deployed, people giving up and walking downtown instead of waiting for the city's transit agency to take them there – dominated newscasts and talk radio, but experts say commuters should not to throw the train under the bus.

It's quite common for there to be a long learning curve for the people running a new transit line, said Shoshanna Saxe, a professor of civil engineering at the University of Toronto. Think of it like renovating your home: Even after you do the work, which may include having to repair that unforeseen crack in the wall, you still might have to do some more work.

The issue, Saxe said, is we tend to want to judge new infrastructure immediately, even though major projects have been built for the long-term – years if not decades.

"If we build infrastructure to be at its peak performance six months after it opens, we would have really under-designed and would have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on something that would immediately be too small," said Saxe, an expert on transit infrastructure.

"We're building for the long-term if we're doing it well, so we need to give the infrastructure a bit of time. Obviously, ideally, everyone wants it to work well right off the bat."

Likewise, there is a learning curve for the users, said Lawrence Frank , the Bombardier Chair in Sustainable Transportation at the University of British Columbia.

"A brand new, $2-billion system is going to have, (in) the first couple of days of operations, a few things happen. The only way that's avoided is if it was pre-tested with a lot of passengers," he said in a telephone interview while riding a train in Denmark.

Things went smoothly Monday when Ottawa transit officials cut the parallel bus service that had been running since the LRT opened last month, trying to give commuters a chance to adjust.

On Tuesday, a rider pried open closing doors at one station and caused disastrous backups. A repeat performance at two stations on Wednesday led to a similar slowdown.

On Thursday, it was an on-board computer that went on the fritz and haywired train traffic, adding to complaints about the marquee project that was delivered more than a year late.

There was hand-wringing at city hall: Mayor Jim Watson demanded municipal staff figure out this door issue, and the head of the Ottawa transit agency, John Manconi, tried to avoid directly blaming riders at a press conference where he pledged to solve the problems. Forced-open doors can get misaligned and refuse to close properly, and a train can't run with a door that isn't locked tight.

Frank, the UBC professor, said someone holding open a door is likely to lead to problems with a train that cascade through the system and cautioned against using first-week problems to immediately label a new system a failure.

Instead, he said, watch a new transit system over decades to see how it aligns with a regional growth strategy to spur development around stations and avoid sprawl.

Frank said other things to consider are how a system makes a population more transit-oriented, reducing greenhouse gas emissions, and potentially making people more active, reducing health-care costs, he said.

But many of those long-term issues get tossed aside when it comes time to plan new transit routes when politicians go searching for votes, said Cherise Burda, executive director of the Ryerson City Building Institute: "Rather than it being evidence-based transit making, it's politics-based evidence-making."

So what should transit planning look like?

Burda offered a few suggestions: having dedicated transit-ways for buses, opt for light rail rather than digging extensive subways, and consider how governments plan to spend taxpayer dollars, particularly in the context of a federal election where parties promise billions for cities to reduce commute times.

"Perhaps one way forward is looking at more short-term, intermediate and long-term (projects) because if all the funding goes towards long-term lines, we are going to be adding population to our cities and entrenching car dependency, which is really hard to turn around," she said.

https://obj.ca/article/despite-ottawas-lrt-woes-experts-say-dont-judge-right-away
     
     
  #13084  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2019, 7:02 PM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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So I was timing the trains at Tunney's Pasture last Friday. I found that the average over 36 intervals was 4:09.

Furthermore, after the delay today, the trains sometimes achieved headways of 2-3 minutes. So it is possible.
     
     
  #13085  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2019, 7:17 PM
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Has anyone seen out-of-service trains running? Shane on O-Train Fans mentioned he heard an announcement at Rideau last Saturday of "the next train not in service", though he did not see it. I've seen one at Blair last week leaving full-speed with no one aboard.
     
     
  #13086  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2019, 7:57 PM
bartlebooth bartlebooth is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Has anyone seen out-of-service trains running? Shane on O-Train Fans mentioned he heard an announcement at Rideau last Saturday of "the next train not in service", though he did not see it. I've seen one at Blair last week leaving full-speed with no one aboard.
I've seen an out-of-service train at St Laurent before, it just flew through the station and wasn't synched to the "next train" time display. The next board-able train arrived at the time that was displayed.
     
     
  #13087  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2019, 8:03 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
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Reminds me of Trillium. We're doubling capacity with longer trains as part of Stage 2, but service won't be improved whatsoever since the dismal 12 minute frequency will be maintained. Double tracking to increase frequency would have been a better investment than doubling the capacity through longer trains. REM is better than the current Deux-Montagnes because it will offer proper all-day, frequent urban transit.

I suspect that the only reason the City of Ottawa went with longer trains as opposed to more frequent service (through double tracking) is to save on driver salaries.
I don't think it had anything to do with salaries. Running longer trains was the cheaper and easier way out for them.
     
     
  #13088  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2019, 8:22 PM
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I agree with you that Ottawa's transit service in the urban area is terrible. With an investment of a few dozen million dollars for bus lanes, proper transit stops and more buses (electric)/drivers for increased frequency, we could have a proper bus network serving the urban area.

What I am saying is that there is nothing a bus can't do that a tramway can. It's not worth wasting a billion+ dollars and cause years of traffic (car and transit) disruptions on a tramway that would max out capacity in just a few years.

Make the necessary improvements using electric bus technology, build up ridership and then jump straight to subways when the volume warrants. The exact same way Vancouver does it with their B-Lines.
I think this will be very difficult to achieve more subways especially as we force more buses into mixed traffic. Transit in exclusive lanes is a good compromise. The value of trams is that we will be building improved infrastructure at the same time, whereas, the tendency with buses is to do not much of anything.
     
     
  #13089  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2019, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I think this will be very difficult to achieve more subways especially as we force more buses into mixed traffic. Transit in exclusive lanes is a good compromise. The value of trams is that we will be building improved infrastructure at the same time, whereas, the tendency with buses is to do not much of anything.
In the states they have a problem of downgrading BRT. They start with exclusive lanes and transit priority, then drivers complain about traffic and first to go is signal priority, and then often the reserved lane. You can't do that (as easily) to a tram.
     
     
  #13090  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2019, 10:50 PM
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The train I'm on right now (18:45) is in button-activated door mode. A lot of people are confused and thinking the doors aren't opening, but the people who would be pressing the buttons anyway are doing just fine.

The door closing chime and announcement play seperately for each door too.. interesting.
     
     
  #13091  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2019, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
The train I'm on right now (18:45) is in button-activated door mode. A lot of people are confused and thinking the doors aren't opening, but the people who would be pressing the buttons anyway are doing just fine.

The door closing chime and announcement play seperately for each door too.. interesting.
That's bizarre. Why is OC Transpo trying to confuse people? Especially after trying people "don't touch the doors"
     
     
  #13092  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2019, 12:10 PM
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That's bizarre. Why is OC Transpo trying to confuse people? Especially after trying people "don't touch the doors"
Not sure, the buttons were active in each of the tunnel stations (I only got at Lyon heading east).

I think there needs to be an audio cue of some sort to indicate that the buttons are active, because right now there aren't any. The door open chimes don't sound (until the door physically opens) and there's no beeping like on the LINTs.

Otherwise, seems like just another step in the learning curve.
     
     
  #13093  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2019, 1:00 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Not sure, the buttons were active in each of the tunnel stations (I only got at Lyon heading east).

I think there needs to be an audio cue of some sort to indicate that the buttons are active, because right now there aren't any. The door open chimes don't sound (until the door physically opens) and there's no beeping like on the LINTs.

Otherwise, seems like just another step in the learning curve.

It makes sense to do the switch, but is now really the best time to arbitrarily switch it?

In other news, a train got stuck at Tunney's, but it didn't really cause any major issues which made me think of something. Somewhere along the way they cheaped out and removed tail tracks that were on the original plan, meaning a disabled train except at a Terminus station has to make it all the way back to Belfast. Hopefully they revisit this and add some in the medium term
     
     
  #13094  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2019, 1:02 PM
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I guess the outside temperature is now low enough to warrant activating the buttons. I agree this could be quite confusing after drilling the "don't touch the doors" messaging for a week.

As mentioned they should have an announcement letting people know "Lyon Station, to open doors, please press door button". All the doors should then close automatically with one chime/announcement.

The busiest stations, at least at rush hour, should remain on auto mode (Lyon to uOttawa, Hurman) while terminus stations could be on manual mode since the trains remain docked for a few minutes.
     
     
  #13095  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2019, 1:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
It makes sense to do the switch, but is now really the best time to arbitrarily switch it?

In other news, a train got stuck at Tunney's, but it didn't really cause any major issues which made me think of something. Somewhere along the way they cheaped out and removed tail tracks that were on the original plan, meaning a disabled train except at a Terminus station has to make it all the way back to Belfast. Hopefully they revisit this and add some in the medium term
Stage 2 seems to have that at Trim. Moodie has its own Yard and Baseline has pocket tracks just north of the station within the tunnel (which is why the station was moved south, making the existing entrance ports useless), requiring a short tow and push of 200 or so meters.
     
     
  #13096  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2019, 1:57 PM
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It makes sense to do the switch, but is now really the best time to arbitrarily switch it?

In other news, a train got stuck at Tunney's, but it didn't really cause any major issues
I think people are getting quite tired of it all TBH

     
     
  #13097  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2019, 2:44 PM
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These problems always seem to impact Tunney's Pasture the most, which is the worst place for train problems to happen given the passenger flow from buses.

Is this going to be an ongoing issue for the next 6 years until Phase 2 opens? I hope not. Customers will not put up with this.
     
     
  #13098  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2019, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
These problems always seem to impact Tunney's Pasture the most, which is the worst place for train problems to happen given the passenger flow from buses.

Is this going to be an ongoing issue for the next 6 years until Phase 2 opens? I hope not. Customers will not put up with this.
That is the issue of making the western leg so short. I know the reasons why they couldn't make it longer initially, but it will continue to be the station most heavily affected when there are issues with the line until it is extended.

Having two platforms is actually helpful in this regard, as it gives them twice as much space for people to wait. Imagine what the crowds would be like if they only had one centre platform.
     
     
  #13099  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2019, 3:05 PM
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The solution is simple: don't make EVERYONE in the west-end transfer. I have a colleague who lives near Fisher and Carling: forced to transfer at Tunney's. Another colleague at Carleton-Heights (south of the Experimental Farm): forced to transfer at Tunney's. Another one in the Lincoln Fields area: you guessed it! forced to transfer at Tunney's. The former two's buses are ridiculously unreliable now as they were before the opening of Line 1, but that's another issue.

It is not realistic to force EVERYONE from the west end to transfer. The City should have maintained direct to downtown routes for those who live within the Greenbelt and often use transit beyond just commuting.
     
     
  #13100  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2019, 3:30 PM
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My opinion on this is starting to shift. If they can't get these issues under control over the next few months, they should look at restoring some elements of the old bus network in the west.

The line really only services the east in its current configuration.

However, I'd wait until they have 15 trains and shake off the teething period before considering that decision.

To protect our ability to potentially act on this, the city should put a halt to plans to scrap the now-unused buses for the time being.
     
     
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