PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[Philly-Drew]

Originally Posted by Philly-Drew

I know Lib-1 gets all the credit for breaking the “gentlemen’s agreement” on building height, but did Commerce Square actually exceed City Hall first?

Asking because I know it was close. Both projects were part of the building boom starting in the late eighties that would define Philadelphia’s skyline for close to a couple of decades.

This is one of those historic items that Aaamazarite would know.

Aaamazarite is like the Ray Didinger for the City of Philadelphia. The dude knows everything.

[Urbanthusiat]

I believe liberty place gets credit because it was approved first. I believe Commerce Square wasn’t proposed until Liberty Place was approved, it just went through a much faster process where it was able to get up to that height at about the same time as Liberty Place. As to which physically achieved that heigh my first, I couldn’t tell you, but that’s why Liberty Place gets the credit.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Philly-Drew

.....Aaamazarite is like the Ray Didinger for the City of Philadelphia...

Oh yeah, totally.

(who the hell is Ray Didinger?)

[New2Fishtown]

Originally Posted by eixample

It is a great idea to move the Ritz 5 there. A theater use was mentioned in one of the articles and I would think a live music/musical/play type theater would be overkill since this is the most theater-ed part of the city already. A movie theater would be a totally different story.

Cringing at "Rit/Fit" though. Please don't let that catch on.

Can't just have an entirely new movie theater in this location and keep the Ritz 5? Maybe even one that also shows mainstream fare? It's insane that the AMC at Fashion District is going to be the first non-specialty movie theater in the center of this huge city in nearly 20 years. One would think there is sufficient demand for many, many more screens. I get that the poster is suggesting moving the Ritz 5 specifically to clear the way for another skyscraper, which is the focus of this forum, but from a market perspective I think we are at the point as a city where we could handle a multiplex at Broad and South and keep the same number of Ritz screens running in Old City (even if some of them might relocate or consolidate as development proceeds).

By my count, with Fashion District 8 up and running there will still be fewer than 20 screens to see a movie of any kind within the core of Center City (and that's if you count the Roxy which is small and dated and the Prince which is an awesome place to see movies but no one seems to know that they're showing blockbusters there and trying to get people to think of it as a regular theater). Add in UCity and Temple and you get to something like +/-30 screens, and then Manayunk and Riverview gets you up to +/-50 screens. I know there's some theaters up in the Northeast I'm leaving out, and I have no idea what the industry would consider saturation or oversaturation of movie screens, but 50 screens for a city of nearly 1.6M people seems low. With AMC on Market, a major theater on South Broad does seem like an ideal location from a site selection perspective, and goes thematically with Ave of the Arts. Whether it happens at Broad and South, the Blatstein lot at Broad and Washington, or elsewhere, we certainly deserve more quality places to see movies.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by New2Fishtown

Can't just have an entirely new movie theater in this location and keep the Ritz 5? Maybe even one that also shows mainstream fare? It's insane that the AMC at Fashion District is going to be the first non-specialty movie theater in the center of this huge city in nearly 20 years. One would think there is sufficient demand for many, many more screens. I get that the poster is suggesting moving the Ritz 5 specifically to clear the way for another skyscraper, which is the focus of this forum, but from a market perspective I think we are at the point as a city where we could handle a multiplex at Broad and South and keep the same number of Ritz screens running in Old City (even if some of them might relocate or consolidate as development proceeds).

By my count, with Fashion District 8 up and running there will still be fewer than 20 screens to see a movie of any kind within the core of Center City (and that's if you count the Roxy which is small and dated and the Prince which is an awesome place to see movies but no one seems to know that they're showing blockbusters there and trying to get people to think of it as a regular theater). Add in UCity and Temple and you get to something like +/-30 screens, and then Manayunk and Riverview gets you up to +/-50 screens. I know there's some theaters up in the Northeast I'm leaving out, and I have no idea what the industry would consider saturation or oversaturation of movie screens, but 50 screens for a city of nearly 1.6M people seems low. With AMC on Market, a major theater on South Broad does seem like an ideal location from a site selection perspective, and goes thematically with Ave of the Arts. Whether it happens at Broad and South, the Blatstein lot at Broad and Washington, or elsewhere, we certainly deserve more quality places to see movies.

Agreed. As an Old City resident, I'd like you to leave my dam Ritz right where it is and add a few more screens somewhere else.

Thanks.

[eixample]

I would just like to see more of the art house screens spread out a bit around the city. I don't want to see the Ritz 5 leave its current spot except for a great high-rise development. South Broad Street below Spruce could really use more activation so that is part of the reason I applauded the suggestion. If there is demand, I would love to see more theaters around the city and not lose any in the process. This is all just idle, uninformed speculation anyway...

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by eixample

I would just like to see more of the art house screens spread out a bit around the city. I don't want to see the Ritz 5 leave its current spot except for a great high-rise development. South Broad Street below Spruce could really use more activation so that is part of the reason I applauded the suggestion. If there is demand, I would love to see more theaters around the city and not lose any in the process. This is all just idle, uninformed speculation anyway...

Haha. I was kidding....

[Philly-Drew]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Oh yeah, totally.

(who the hell is Ray Didinger?)

He’s an expert on the Eagles from both a historical and current perspective.

[cardeza]

No one posted this?

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel..._news_headline

[Aaamazarite]

Originally Posted by Philly-Drew

This is one of those historic items that Aaamazarite would know.

Aaamazarite is like the Ray Didinger for the City of Philadelphia. The dude knows everything.

The "Gentlemens' Agreement" is Philly false canon, it was never an actual rule or law. There were many proposals in the 50s, 60s, and 70s for buildings taller than City Hall, none made it to fruition until Liberty Place. The term comes from a New Yorker article in 1956, which was referenced by Edmund Bacon in 1963 in reaction to a proposal that was taller than city hall. The same year, an ordinance was proposed in council to make it official, but it didn't make it. Commerce Square topped out before Liberty Place but opened in October 1987, two months later than Liberty Place's August 1987 opening.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by cardeza

No one posted this?

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel..._news_headline

Can someone post the full story? That’s huge news!

[Aaamazarite]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Can someone post the full story? That’s huge news!

Long story short, PHA is selling two of the three West Park towers on the open market-- they intend to use the proceeds for rehab of the third tower. I'm not sure developers are going to jump for two towers that have not been renovated since they were built in the 60s-- demolition is probably not even in the cards since they're so large I doubt it would be economical.

I think they were motivated by the recent purchase of 3901 Market/University Square that lead to a head-to-toe upgrade of the whole place while keeping its affordability intact.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Aaamazarite

The "Gentlemens' Agreement" is Philly false canon, it was never an actual rule or law. There were many proposals in the 50s, 60s, and 70s for buildings taller than City Hall, none made it to fruition until Liberty Place. The term comes from a New Yorker article in 1956, which was referenced by Edmund Bacon in 1963 in reaction to a proposal that was taller than city hall. The same year, an ordinance was proposed in council to make it official, but it didn't make it. Commerce Square topped out before Liberty Place but opened in October 1987, two months later than Liberty Place's August 1987 opening.

A article about the various proposals for building taller then City Hall prior to Liberty Place being built,written by someone who enjoys research, would be most interesting. I wonder who could do that------

[Aaamazarite]

Originally Posted by City Wide

A article about the various proposals for building taller then City Hall prior to Liberty Place being built,written by someone who enjoys research, would be most interesting. I wonder who could do that------

I tried back in the day but there was only one that got passed its first mention.

http://philaphilia.blogspot.com/2012...nuary-5th.html

I'm much better at research now so maybe I'll write a new one for this 1965 proposal

[cardeza]

quite a bit of upzoning from Blackwell in UC coming soon

https://www.phila.gov/media/20191009...10-15-2019.pdf

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Aaamazarite

Long story short, PHA is selling two of the three West Park towers on the open market-- they intend to use the proceeds for rehab of the third tower. I'm not sure developers are going to jump for two towers that have not been renovated since they were built in the 60s-- demolition is probably not even in the cards since they're so large I doubt it would be economical.

I think they were motivated by the recent purchase of 3901 Market/University Square that lead to a head-to-toe upgrade of the whole place while keeping its affordability intact.

Was/is 3901 Market a PHA owned and or run property? I remember when it was built and I'm pretty sure it wasn't PHA then.

[Aaamazarite]

Originally Posted by City Wide

Was/is 3901 Market a PHA owned and or run property? I remember when it was built and I'm pretty sure it wasn't PHA then.

It was never a PHA property-- privately developed affordable housing just like 3900 Market

http://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phill...se-40th-market

[GtownFriend]

Originally Posted by cardeza

quite a bit of upzoning from Blackwell in UC coming soon

https://www.phila.gov/media/20191009...10-15-2019.pdf

Besides upzoning on the west side of 38th from Ludlow to Samson, the whole
block south of Schuylkill Yards (30th-31st, Chestnut - Walnut) is going up to RMX5! wonder what that's for.
Also upzoning the lots on the south side of Market between 22nd and the river to RMX5. This includes the
lot for 2222 Market.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Aaamazarite

Long story short, PHA is selling two of the three West Park towers on the open market-- they intend to use the proceeds for rehab of the third tower. I'm not sure developers are going to jump for two towers that have not been renovated since they were built in the 60s-- demolition is probably not even in the cards since they're so large I doubt it would be economical.

I think they were motivated by the recent purchase of 3901 Market/University Square that lead to a head-to-toe upgrade of the whole place while keeping its affordability intact.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see if there are bites on this. There's a lot of incentives on the table, but there are challenges renovating old buildings. How tall are the ceilings? That's one thing that is difficult to change without exorbitant expenditure. In addition to likely having lowish ceilings, they are likely concrete, and soffits would need to be added to add additional lights. The electrical work and HVAC is likely a mess too.

[GtownFriend]

Originally Posted by cardeza

quite a bit of upzoning from Blackwell in UC coming soon

https://www.phila.gov/media/20191009...10-15-2019.pdf

Curious why the upzoning includes properies that have just been built or refurbished, ie 2400 Market and The Hamilton at 39th & Chestnut?