Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

Ferry service for Shannon Park is potentially a great way to cut down traffic leaving the area via the road network. Halifax already has 5 ferries and they have a capacity of 390 people each. If service were expanded to cover Bedford, which has become likelier now that commuter rail is dead, it would be even better.

The slow tubs currently used would make for unacceptably long and uncomfortable rides.

The Oracle Park ferries in SF run at speeds from 25 to 34 knots and charge a fare of about $14USD IIRC. I imagine locals here would push back against that rate.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The slow tubs currently used would make for unacceptably long and uncomfortable rides.

The Oracle Park ferries in SF run at speeds from 25 to 34 knots and charge a fare of about $14USD IIRC. I imagine locals here would push back against that rate.

Slow for a daily commute, yes, but I imagine for a once-in-a-while trip to a game, not so critical.

Given that a taxi from pretty much anywhere in the suburbs is a $30 - $40 cost, $15-$20 seems relatively cheap.

And why not have an agreement with some of the party boats that regularly tour the harbour. Offer a price that includes a drink and the ferry ride becomes part of the event...

[GregSF]

Originally Posted by someone123

I've said before that it seems to me like Halifax municipal planning is suited to a smaller city. Case in point, the CFL stadium is treated like a huge make-or-break thing when it's just a medium-sized project for a municipality on its way to half a million people.

Build the stadium at 20,000 and everyone will be happy.

When Edmonton started planning its LRT in 1962 it had about 300,000 people. The commuter rail project was much more modest and no LRT plan has ever been seriously contemplated for Halifax.

So did every other city in Western Canada. In fact most Western Canadian cities had plans to build freeways through their respective downtowns. It means nothing. Edmonton built the LRT in 1978 for the Commonwealth Games, when the city had reached 600,000. Even then the LRT did not really go anywhere until the mid 2000s.

HRM today has the same population as Vancouver city in 1986, the year Vancouver hosted the world's fair.

Vancouver Metro had approximately 1.4 million people in 1986. Never go by city populations, as it has always been incredibly misleading.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by GregSF

So did every other city in Western Canada. In fact most Western Canadian cities had plans to build freeways through their respective downtowns. It means nothing. Edmonton built the LRT in 1978 for the Commonwealth Games, when the city had reached 600,000. Even then the LRT did not really go anywhere until the mid 2000s.

My point is that Halifax planning is not adequately ambitious for its size, so it won't result in infrastructure appropriately scaled for the size of the city in the future.

Halifax grew at the same rate Edmonton did last year. If Halifax followed the Edmonton LRT planning timeline now and grew at current rates it would also have right around 600,000 people by the time of project completion.

But right now something like the first phase of Edmonton's LRT is far beyond the scope of any transit projects contemplated in Halifax.

Vancouver Metro had approximately 1.4 million people in 1986. Never go by city populations, as it has always been incredibly misleading.

It's not misleading as long as you understand the context. The tax base and budget of the municipality are relevant when talking about the scale of projects that are taken on. HRM has a $1B a year budget but tends to balk at multi-decade infrastructure projects with a budget of only $100M or so.

[TheNovaScotian]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The slow tubs currently used would make for unacceptably long and uncomfortable rides.

The Oracle Park ferries in SF run at speeds from 25 to 34 knots and charge a fare of about $14USD IIRC. I imagine locals here would push back against that rate.

They estimated $5 a ticket.
Remember this?
http://https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/halifax-council-approves-fast-ferry-1.575695

It actually pains me to read it and be reminded of the inertia this city has. A decade later and not a damn things changed.

[TheNovaScotian]

Upon further examinations 14 years later and what I do see is a lot of this

http://https://www.halifaxtoday.ca/local...-for-halifax-council-coming-soon-1121035

http://https://www.thestar.com/halifax/2...rs-to-get-a-smaller-raise-this-year.html

http://https://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBi...ouncil-salaries-jump-23-percent-to-87409



Year after year, there's always money to give raises to council when you don't spend it on infrastructure needed for a growing city.

[teddifax]

So sad... Halifax is a major city in Canada.... build the stadium!

[Colin May]

HRM budgets $100,000,000 for a new transit garage and another $60,000,000 for a police station. For more details read the HRM Capital Budget from earlier this year.
And then there is the HRM pension plan unfunded liability; the December 31 2018 actuarial valuation report will be in the public realm soon and it won't be good news.

[ILoveHalifax]

Just leave the buses in the old garage for another year or 2 and we could have a state of the art stadium - The public does not even see the fing bus garage but we sure could see the stadium and all of Canada could see it every week on TV and be impressed with HALIFAX

[spaustin]

No one ever likes to budget for things like a new transit garage. It has no wow factor. We literally don't have enough room though in the current one for the bus fleet. We park buses outside and then leave them running around the clock on cold days in the winter. If we want an effective transit system, you can't operate it from inadequate facilities.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by spaustin

No one ever likes to budget for things like a new transit garage. It has no wow factor. We literally don't have enough room though in the current one for the bus fleet. We park buses outside and then leave them running around the clock on cold days in the winter. If we want an effective transit system, you can't operate it from inadequate facilities.

Why do the buses need to run over nite? They don't have any heaters? How many won't fit in the garage?

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

Why do the buses need to run over nite? They don't have any heaters? How many won't fit in the garage?

Do you write for SNL ?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

HRM budgets $100,000,000 for a new transit garage and another $60,000,000 for a police station. For more details read the HRM Capital Budget from earlier this year.
And then there is the HRM pension plan unfunded liability; the December 31 2018 actuarial valuation report will be in the public realm soon and it won't be good news.

The Transit garage strikes me as an entirely avoidable expenditure. If you are looking mostly for heated storage and only basic repair and maintenance facilities something could be easily leased. The entire Transit maintenance operation needs review in any event as it could well be cheaper to contract it out now that I see on the Sunshine List that Transit mechanics are making 6 figure salaries.

The police station is a tougher nut to crack as the existing one is not in the best location and cannot be easily expanded. The Dartmouth location in Burnside appears expansive by comparison but I suspect does not have the same sort of facilities.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Do you write for SNL ?

Well what an intelligent contribution to the discussion - I asked a very simple question based on the post from Sam Austin.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The Transit garage strikes me as an entirely avoidable expenditure. If you are looking mostly for heated storage and only basic repair and maintenance facilities something could be easily leased. The entire Transit maintenance operation needs review in any event as it could well be cheaper to contract it out now that I see on the Sunshine List that Transit mechanics are making 6 figure salaries.

The police station is a tougher nut to crack as the existing one is not in the best location and cannot be easily expanded. The Dartmouth location in Burnside appears expansive by comparison but I suspect does not have the same sort of facilities.

The lease vs build was my first question. Why take on the expense of building a DEE-Luxe facility when you could lease and not have to put out large expenditures like this. Then you have the option of moving to another location, or even ending the lease if needs change (like if transit services are contracted out as you mentioned), rather than being tied to a huge facility that we will own forever, and will eventually need to be upgraded or replaced. Let the REITs take on that expense.

Also, does the whole garage have to be in one large facility? Why not keep the existing facility, do upgrades as required, and lease out additional satellite facilities closer to the routes that those particular units are servicing?

Honestly, a shop to service buses, which are essentially just trucks, does not require an elaborate facility. $100m seems like a huge cost for that.

There are a lot of questions here, but I haven't sought out any info. Colin, can you post a link?

I think a good, functional, well-located police station is a must, and a necessary expenditure. Fair enough.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The lease vs build was my first question. $100m seems like a huge cost for that.

There are a lot of questions here, but I haven't sought out any info. Colin, can you post a link?

I think a good, functional, well-located police station is a must, and a necessary expenditure. Fair enough.

Hi Mark,
The information I have may not be in the Capital budget. I have heard and read some information regarding the garage and the possible expansion. The estimated cost of a new police station has been briefly discussed at the Board of Police Commissioners but there is no site identified.
The November 2018 speech by Mayor Savage to the Board of Trade is public and reported in the media, but he has never referred to the pension plan deficit and the resulting financial problem. https://www.thestar.com/halifax/2018/11/...-crowd-tough-budget-debates-to-come.html
The December 2018 Council meeting re the Capital Budget is a good starting point because staff laid out the near and long term capital spending facing HRM and the councillors were not happy bunnies. In my opinion that meeting effectively killed a stadium. Just maintaining existing infrastructure is a challenge.
https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default/files/documents/city-hall/regional-council/181204cow5.pdf

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Just maintaining existing infrastructure is a challenge.

And yet, miraculously, other cities manage to do this and grow at the same time.

[ILoveHalifax]

Can anybody tell me why Halifax Transit needs to run buses all nite in cold weather?

[Djeffery]

Diesels get very hard to start after several hours of sitting in very cold weather. Ideally, you just plug them in, but if the infrastructure isn't there, or if the buses aren't equipped with block heaters, then you need to either go start them every couple hours or let them run constantly. I don't know how many they park outside, but any more than about a dozen becomes very difficult to have someone going out to start, run them for a couple minutes and turn them off, and repeat a couple hours later.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Diesels get very hard to start after several hours of sitting in very cold weather. Ideally, you just plug them in, but if the infrastructure isn't there, or if the buses aren't equipped with block heaters, then you need to either go start them every couple hours or let them run constantly. I don't know how many they park outside, but any more than about a dozen becomes very difficult to have someone going out to start, run them for a couple minutes and turn them off, and repeat a couple hours later.

Thank you for your response. So a much cheaper solution would be to install BLOCK HEATERS for the very few very cold nites that Halifax might have in any winter. Halifax has fewer cold nites than most Canadian cities. Looks to me like Sam Austin just does not like football and does not want anybody else to enjoy it. Major league sports adds a lot of civic pride to most citizens whether they like the sport or not