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  #3621  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2019, 12:28 AM
Tysonbrown Tysonbrown is offline
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Originally Posted by osirisboy View Post
Next year the liberals will win and it'll just revert back to the original bridge
No provincial election next year unless you know something we don't...lol. Holding out hope that Horgan gets one legit term at least.
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  #3622  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2019, 1:12 AM
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Yeah, BC's Libs are going to have an uphill climb; thanks to the housing crisis and Andrew Wilkinson, their reputation's sunk to Fast Ferries levels.
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  #3623  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2019, 3:37 AM
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If only they would have commenced the bridge project a year earlier, it would have kept moving. The signs sure were up alongside highway for years.

I guess we are lucky that Site C got through due to being so far down the line...
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  #3624  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 2:10 AM
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https://www.peacearchnews.com/opinion/b-c-views-massey-crossing-a-bridge-too-far-for-ndp/
Embracing a recommendation by Metro Vancouver mayors for a new eight-lane tunnel to replace the traffic-choked four-lane George Massey tunnel is a choice the B.C. NDP government may regret.



One of the first major decisions of Premier John Horgan and Transportation Minister Claire Trevena on taking office in 2017 was to scrap plans for a 10-lane bridge. A bridge similar to the new Port Mann crossing would have been well underway by now. Instead, the NDP government chose to make a hugely expensive point about avoiding tolls and consulting with the quarrelsome councils of the Lower Mainland.

Delta South B.C. Liberal MLA Ian Paton has been a fierce critic of delays in fixing what everyone agrees is the worst traffic bottleneck in the province. Like many others, he was surprised that floating new tunnel sections into the Lower Fraser, sinking them and linking them, is the new plan.

Paton estimates that the bridge would be half done by now, and starting from scratch with engineering and environmental work for a tunnel means relief for commuters is now 10 years away. An eight-lane bridge would benefit from engineering work already done.

RELATED: Delta council warns of decade of tunnel delays, rejection

RELATED: Metro task force recommends eight-lane Massey tunnel

The tunnel requires removal of 1.5 million cubic metres of salt-contaminated soil to trench the river bottom, which would somehow have to be stabilized for earthquake safety along with the lengthy approaches from both sides. This in-river work invokes federal fisheries law, forcing construction into a narrow summer window. That’s if it gets environmental approval, which could take three years or more.

Then there’s the money. Horgan won his bare minority government on a promise to remove tolls from the Port Mann and Golden Ears bridges, moving their massive debt onto the province’s capital budget. A “business case” for the new project may take a year, so the usual string of pre-election announcements in 2021 may not be well received.

And obviously the NDP’s union-only public construction model weighs heavily on projects like this. After a huge overrun on a short piece of Trans-Canada Highway widening near Revelstoke, the ministry insists it is on budget for its four-lane replacement of the four-lane Pattullo Bridge. We’ll see.

As the municipal task force was gathering to make their surprise choice to reject a down-scaled bridge that looks like the logical option, Horgan was asked if his government was wasting time.

“I wouldn’t say for a second that it’s been a waste of time,” Horgan said, adding that he met with the mayor of Delta and was looking forward to financing whatever the mayors want. Trevena repeated the comments a few hours later, after the tunnel recommendation emerged. First it has to be costed, then go to cabinet, then the Treasury Board to find the money as the province teeters on the edge of returning to deficits.

The next day Horgan was off to Seattle to once again join Gov. Jay Inslee in pitching a bullet train from Portland to Vancouver, at unimaginable cost. Horgan put $600,000 toward a “business case” for that, which found that eventually it “may be viable” if routes and state-federal governance can be figured out.

Drivers stuck in the Massey tunnel for the next decade will have time to admire a $40 million spruce-up of our 60-year-old earthquake trap. Scheduled for completion by the end of 2020, it includes new paint, lighting, drainage to keep ice from forming, and a good washing of the dank interior walls.

Tom Fletcher is B.C. legislature reporter and columnist for Black Press Media. Email: [email protected]

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  #3625  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mininari View Post
I realize they didn't choose the bored tunnel, which would be even LONGER of a delay to completion, but they did choose the immersed tunnel option, which will trigger the federal environmental certification process... which WILL take years.

It is just me, or did they intentionally do this to delay the construction (AND FINANCING) of this project to a future government mandate on purpose to APPEAR they are moving forward, when all they are doing is passing the buck?

If the 10-lane bridge solution had just been let to continue construction, it would be half-way done by now. But not under the community benefits agreement, and it certainly would be a "liberal-branded" project to the end. Can't have that, can we?

Either way, I don't care. I live in Victoria... but I *DO* care, because I like to think I have some pride in this crossing being the 'Gateway to British Columbia' for visiting Americans.

Or maybe that doesn't matter either and the Alex Fraser Bridge should be designated the "Main" entrance to the GVRD for visitors from the south.

See you all at the ribbon cutting in... 2025? nah... how does 2030 sound?

(p.s. build the damn interchanges to 21st century standards please)
Yeah, it's pretty much an open secret Horgan doesn't really care about the tunnel.

The AFB itself actually has congestion problems- the new GMB was intended to RELIEVE the AFB.

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Originally Posted by p78hub View Post
It's too bad there has never really been anyone to challenge Brodie in Richmond, but at the same time I can't see a new mayor being any different. We need a regional government with some teeth to pass decisions that benefit the region as a whole, because it seems like none of the mayors really want to help each other and it hurts everyone.
Yeah, why does Brodie keep getting into office? He was the same person who made a piss to YVR for adding a new runway and the Port of Metro Van for 'destroying the ALR' despite doing nothing about the subdivision of the ALR on the land the municipality could do something about until he was forced to.

I don't even know if it's the people who have the same concerns as Brodie in Richmond, or if it's just him. I would suspect not the former.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s211 View Post
From people I know that have had to deal with the Metro on items that the Metro would vote on, the general model is to follow what the City of Vancouver wants.

So, in short, we're pooched.
Don't you mean what the municipalities want?
And yeah, in this case, the province didn't even NEED to bother with the squabbling municipalities, being a provincial highway. But they did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misher View Post
I see this as a smart policy of benefit to Richmond. More traffic to Delta=more people living or setting up their businesses in Richmond as the alternative=more development for Queensborough and Steveston & No5.

I don't see how Richmond would benefit from a bridge, but I do see how they'd lose.
I'm not sure how Richmond is supposed to get the "White Flight" problem... It's not like Delta even has an abundance of non-ALR land they can build on- at least not any more than Richmond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
So, from the images provided so far, with the buses on the outermost lanes instead of the centre and the Steveston interchange essentially being unchanged for the same price as the previous project, which included the bridge, a true rapid bus system with direct ramps and real stations, and a complete rebuild of interchanges along the 99 we are just getting the tunnel with minor lipstick improvements elsewhere.

Once again, they should have just continued with the project with a reduced lane count of 8 instead of 10.

Who is winning here now?

We have to do a 3 year environmental certificate now. There will be more disturbance to the river, we will lose more ALR, we will have the same old outdated interchanges with only minor improvements and we will have a reduced transit component. Not to mention a less versatile crossing for shipping.

How can anyone support this cluster fuck?
Interestingly, the Powerpoint states that the tunnel is somehow better for 'alternative modes of transportation' (I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to bike through a tunnel) and higher long-term impact on the environment due to "noise, visual, and shading impacts". What?

You're literally dredging the river for the IT! The impacts from the bridge are 'soft' environmental damage- not damage that hurts wildlife!

The entire thing was biased towards the IT option. Screw this entire mess. This is utter garbage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misher View Post
Given that the cost between 10 and 8 isn’t huge and the discussions about connecting the west coast 10 lanes may make sense. Perhaps install the infrastructure needed so we can convert two lanes to rail when the Vancouver to Seattle line is completed decades from now? Basically overbuilding for the future which Vancouver has largely failed to do in the past.
Skytrain on the corridor is pretty pointless. Commuter Rail probably can't use these sorts of bridges without being specifically designed for it due to weight concerns. LRT/BRT could work, if you converted the HOV to a dedicated lane, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Yeah, BC's Libs are going to have an uphill climb; thanks to the housing crisis and Andrew Wilkinson, their reputation's sunk to Fast Ferries levels.
It's not THAT bad. The NDP still only barely won the last election, after all, WHEN the housing crisis was in full swing.
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  #3626  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 12:01 AM
idunno idunno is offline
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^^ In terms of the new tunnel being better for alternative modes of transportation, the arguments are related to the grade of the proposed bridge vs the tunnel:

For walking/biking, there will be an extra tube, and it will have a more shallow grade. This arguably is more important for biking than walking.

For transit, the grades on the 10-lane bridge design were too steep for LRT. The tunnel's grades are far less, which means rail could actually be built in the tunnel at a later date.
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  #3627  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 12:09 AM
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oh i am sure many many people would love to walk/bike through a long tunnel with only 2 ways in/out. great place to be mugged/murdered/raped/etc.

there is a reason the underpasses like by the Granville Street Bridge are almost never built anymore.


but this assumes they can do a submerged tunnel which i am 95% sure they wont get federal approval for.
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  #3628  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 1:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idunno View Post

For transit, the grades on the 10-lane bridge design were too steep for LRT. The tunnel's grades are far less, which means rail could actually be built in the tunnel at a later date.
You sure about that. I just looked at the graphic linked on the next page. Doesnt appear that way to me.
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  #3629  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 10:46 AM
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You cant move dangerous goods via the tunnel. The way the trucking industry works many trucks have some dangerous goods when the shipments are mixed. Many trucks will like today not be able to use the tunnel and will have to use the Alex Fraser bridge. This is a major flaw of the tunnel.

For rail you will need very low grades and very long approaches. The math is relativly easy to do if you know how deep the tunnel needs to be. Conventional rail has something like max grade of 2.5%. That's like 2.5 meters per 100 meters. To drop 25 meters you need a minimum 1 km approach, on each end.

The decision by the NDP is costing tax payers billions for a substandard and inadequate piece of infrustructure. Do you think there will be highway upgrades from Surrey to Bridgeport as well?

This project is a major fail and the tunnel option is worse in every way. And that ignores massive delays, likely cost over runs and possible impossible environmental obstacles.

Last point if a earthquake hits and hundreds die in the current tunnel due to these decision's those responsible for them should be prosecuted. That means politicians, NDP and the mayors. Prison like is done elsewhere in these situations where gross negligence leads to mass casualties.
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  #3630  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 12:15 PM
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Is there anyway to make sure the project doesn’t proceed? Like, seriously, we need to hold out until the liberals come back. That’s for every single road project, including Patullo.
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  #3631  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 2:02 PM
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Some early concept renderings courtesy of dailyhive of the planned immersed tube tunnel replacement for GMT.



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Source: https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/george-massey-tunnel-immersed-tube-replacement-concept
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  #3632  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 3:30 PM
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I remember how excited I got in 2013 when they released the preliminary bridge renderings, now, almost 7 years later, these come out, I'll be dead by the time this thing gets built if it every does. BTW I'm in Switzerland now and just went through the Gotthard Base Tunnel, which, for those of you who don't know is a 57km long ( the longest in the world ) tunnel which passes under the Swiss Alps, it more or less replaced the shorter, 10km, one built in 1982!!!

My god we're so pathetic, the Swiss would have the Massey Tunnel done in 10 mins, and it would have been done 40 years ago!

My friend here in Switzerland told me that a new Govt CANNOT halt a previously approved and taxpayer funded project, it would be absurd as infrastructure here is paramount to the economy and always considered absolutely essential to economic growth, whether it moves cars, rail or goods.

I know we're not Switzerland but this bloody piece of sh*t needed go decades ago and the saga never ends!! It's a testament to BC politics and complete lack of political will, someone put their big-boy pants on get this done quickly.

Being here is an eye-opener, there are tunnels the size of the Massey at every turn.
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  #3633  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by connect2source View Post
I remember how excited I got in 2013 when they released the preliminary bridge renderings, now, almost 7 years later, these come out, I'll be dead by the time this thing gets built if it every does. BTW I'm in Switzerland now and just went through the Gotthard Base Tunnel, which, for those of you who don't know is a 57km long ( the longest in the world ) tunnel which passes under the Swiss Alps, it more or less replaced the shorter, 10km, one built in 1982!!!
Hmmm, per Wikipedia:

Work begun 4 November 1999
Opened 1 June 2016

$12B Swiss Francs. Around $16B Canadian.


At any rate, the renders look cool. Build it!
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  #3634  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 3:38 PM
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Looks like it will be a fairly large curve on the Richmond side which might limit sightlines as you emerge NB.
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  #3635  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Hmmm, per Wikipedia:

Work begun 4 November 1999
Opened 1 June 2016

$12B Swiss Francs. Around $16B Canadian.


At any rate, the renders look cool. Build it!
Yeah Warren, my point was to illustrate that calibre of stuff done here ( Switzerland ) the Gotthard is 57km long, goes under the Alps!!! You simply underscored my point being the minuscule size of the Massey in comparison and how we can't even get the thing built.
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  #3636  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
oh i am sure many many people would love to walk/bike through a long tunnel with only 2 ways in/out. great place to be mugged/murdered/raped/etc.
I'm not quite sure why this would be any more of a problem than the pedestrian walkway on the Canada Line bridge. It has exactly the same limitations.
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  #3637  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by connect2source View Post
Yeah Warren, my point was to illustrate that calibre of stuff done here ( Switzerland ) the Gotthard is 57km long, goes under the Alps!!! You simply underscored my point being the minuscule size of the Massey in comparison and how we can't even get the thing built.
My point is that apart from being tunnels, they have little in common.
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  #3638  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 5:13 PM
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I wonder if the new tunnel will be designed with the ability for a 4+2 counterflow?
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  #3639  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 5:28 PM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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Originally Posted by connect2source View Post
I remember how excited I got in 2013 when they released the preliminary bridge renderings, now, almost 7 years later, these come out, I'll be dead by the time this thing gets built if it every does. BTW I'm in Switzerland now and just went through the Gotthard Base Tunnel, which, for those of you who don't know is a 57km long ( the longest in the world ) tunnel which passes under the Swiss Alps, it more or less replaced the shorter, 10km, one built in 1982!!!

My god we're so pathetic, the Swiss would have the Massey Tunnel done in 10 mins, and it would have been done 40 years ago!

My friend here in Switzerland told me that a new Govt CANNOT halt a previously approved and taxpayer funded project, it would be absurd as infrastructure here is paramount to the economy and always considered absolutely essential to economic growth, whether it moves cars, rail or goods.

I know we're not Switzerland but this bloody piece of sh*t needed go decades ago and the saga never ends!! It's a testament to BC politics and complete lack of political will, someone put their big-boy pants on get this done quickly.

Being here is an eye-opener, there are tunnels the size of the Massey at every turn.
We could learn a lot from Europe's tunnels.
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  #3640  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2019, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by EastVanMark View Post
We could learn a lot from Europe's tunnels.
Absolutely, I feel they've got so much of it right, we could model many of our projects after theirs, they're decades ahead.
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