PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

There are still a surprising number of vacant storefronts in East Market's interior. I rather hope they'll all fill up in time.

There is really nothing in the retail spaces facing ludlow or 11th street to date.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by cardeza

There is really nothing in the retail spaces facing ludlow or 11th street to date.

Uh oh. That's either a rent thing or a demand thing. And neither is good....

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by cardeza

There is really nothing in the retail spaces facing ludlow or 11th street to date.

11th Street has some vacant spaces, but AT&T fronts it, and the parking garage entrance is on it. Little baby's faces both Ludlow and 12th. But, yes, there are a lot of vacancies still. They only really got the landscaping done these last ouple months and wrapped the construction. The renovation of the Girard building for the hotel has been disruptive. The Roost is now up and running, I believe. Now that it's more complete, I hope we start to see some more retail fill. The demo of the garage will still be somewhat disrupting.

[New2Fishtown]

They have also bizarrely kept a row of orange plastic barricades running across the entrance to the walkway on the Market Street end between District Taco and Iron Hill. I'm not sure what these barricades are supposed to protect or prevent, or if they need to delineate the legal property line for some reason, but if the landlord feels they need to maintain a visual/physical obstruction at the main entryway in, you'd think they could at least install some permanent bollards or a fence or something.

As to the retail, identity crisis has something to do with it. Back when DWR was originally signed on across from MOM's, that was the beginnings of a very clear mid-to-upscale trajectory, and one could imagine the co-tenant opportunities there. MOM's + Marshalls straddles more of a low-to-mid income segment. That and several of the spaces left to lease are not only big but not facing an exterior street. You'd think at least that a Home Goods or other brand routinely co-located with Marshalls would want in. I'm also shocked that La Colombe or another local coffee place hasn't jumped at the small space along the walk just past Iron Hill. For better or worse, restaurants always seem to do better than retail in Philly, so if they're holding out for retailers, they may want to just give in and go in a more deliberate food and beverage direction. The fact that FDP is across the street and also not fully leased probably isn't helping matters. There are likely many retailers that would rather be in FDP since it feels like the bigger draw and a surer bet. Maybe if it opens and succeeds it will drive more retail interest to East Market.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by New2Fishtown

They have also bizarrely kept a row of orange plastic barricades running across the entrance to the walkway on the Market Street end between District Taco and Iron Hill. I'm not sure what these barricades are supposed to protect or prevent, or if they need to delineate the legal property line for some reason, but if the landlord feels they need to maintain a visual/physical obstruction at the main entryway in, you'd think they could at least install some permanent bollards or a fence or something.

As to the retail, identity crisis has something to do with it. Back when DWR was originally signed on across from MOM's, that was the beginnings of a very clear mid-to-upscale trajectory, and one could imagine the co-tenant opportunities there. MOM's + Marshalls straddles more of a low-to-mid income segment. That and several of the spaces left to lease are not only big but not facing an exterior street. You'd think at least that a Home Goods or other brand routinely co-located with Marshalls would want in. I'm also shocked that La Colombe or another local coffee place hasn't jumped at the small space along the walk just past Iron Hill. For better or worse, restaurants always seem to do better than retail in Philly, so if they're holding out for retailers, they may want to just give in and go in a more deliberate food and beverage direction. The fact that FDP is across the street and also not fully leased probably isn't helping matters. There are likely many retailers that would rather be in FDP since it feels like the bigger draw and a surer bet. Maybe if it opens and succeeds it will drive more retail interest to East Market.

I complained about those plastic barriers via 311. Last week they were swapped out for railings dressed in East Market banners. Slightly better, but not the solution I was hoping for. I think it has something to do with that expansion joint underneath the barriers- it must be extremely uneven and pose a tripping (i.e. lawsuit) problem. Why it's not fixed is a mystery. Ive noticed extensive cracking in the sidewalks around East Market. Also, for some reason the street lights have never been reinstalled on that block so there are gray wooden boxes at the locations where the base of the lights should be. How can this still be undone at this juncture? They continue to do nothing about the loitering in front of Wawa- not exactly upscale.

[PHLJD13]

Originally Posted by New2Fishtown

They have also bizarrely kept a row of orange plastic barricades running across the entrance to the walkway on the Market Street end between District Taco and Iron Hill. I'm not sure what these barricades are supposed to protect or prevent, or if they need to delineate the legal property line for some reason, but if the landlord feels they need to maintain a visual/physical obstruction at the main entryway in, you'd think they could at least install some permanent bollards or a fence or something.

As to the retail, identity crisis has something to do with it. Back when DWR was originally signed on across from MOM's, that was the beginnings of a very clear mid-to-upscale trajectory, and one could imagine the co-tenant opportunities there. MOM's + Marshalls straddles more of a low-to-mid income segment. That and several of the spaces left to lease are not only big but not facing an exterior street. You'd think at least that a Home Goods or other brand routinely co-located with Marshalls would want in. I'm also shocked that La Colombe or another local coffee place hasn't jumped at the small space along the walk just past Iron Hill. For better or worse, restaurants always seem to do better than retail in Philly, so if they're holding out for retailers, they may want to just give in and go in a more deliberate food and beverage direction. The fact that FDP is across the street and also not fully leased probably isn't helping matters. There are likely many retailers that would rather be in FDP since it feels like the bigger draw and a surer bet. Maybe if it opens and succeeds it will drive more retail interest to East Market.

Also - the Luke's Lobster across 11th Street from East Market recently closed down, which further seems to suggest the originally-intended high-end vibe of the district is struggling. The Honeygrow seems to fair somewhat better, though.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by PHLJD13

Also - the Luke's Lobster across 11th Street from East Market recently closed down, which further seems to suggest the originally-intended high-end vibe of the district is struggling. The Honeygrow seems to fair somewhat better, though.

as of today it seems like work could be starting in the corner retail slot facing Ludlow and the center courtyard. Didn't see any permits in the window though.

[reparcsyks]

Originally Posted by PHLJD13

Also - the Luke's Lobster across 11th Street from East Market recently closed down, which further seems to suggest the originally-intended high-end vibe of the district is struggling. The Honeygrow seems to fair somewhat better, though.

These things take time. Any retailer not in it for the long haul will leave. Who in their right mind thinks this will be an overnight success?

[DudeGuy]

I wouldn't worry about East Market. I know for a fact that a very large suburban employer is leasing out 300+ spaces at the WeWork at 1100 Ludlow.

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

These things take time. Any retailer not in it for the long haul will leave. Who in their right mind thinks this will be an overnight success?

Thank you.
This is an overhaul of an entire district and goes one step at a time. East Market was a huge step.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

Thank you.
This is an overhaul of an entire district and goes one step at a time. East Market was a huge step.

I dont think people doubt it will take time- the issue (to me at least) is the lack of tangible momentum since East Market hit the scene. 11th Street isn't any better and the north side of market is still a disaster east of 11th. Add to that the EM vacancies and vagrancy problem. Believe it or not, walking the 1100 block of market isn't much more enjoyable now than it was 5 years ago. The courtyard is nice and YOu can now visit TJ Maxx- but the overall aesthetic of the block is much grittier than I would've expected. They keep security guards around the south end of the courtyard space to monitor usage of the benches, etc. but its a mess along Market Street.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

These things take time. Any retailer not in it for the long haul will leave. Who in their right mind thinks this will be an overnight success?

Very true. Anyone who's spent any time there can attest that it's a monumental improvement. The "Fashion District" piece...we shall see...

[iheartphilly]

11th and market and going down to at least 5th isn't really any better either. I walked it today and there was some funky smell, like urine or something along Market St that made me queasy. Also, this part of Market St. looked dirty or didn't present itself well. Did not see anything remarkable at the moment to want to be hanging around. Maybe if I had to shop at 5 Below or something, I would do so and move on. Didn't feel like there was a particular reason to hang around. However, with all this being said, I still hold out hope that big and small changes will move the needle to a better feel and look on Market going into Old City going forward. Personally, I think some nice planters and other softscapes could go a long way. Maybe store front owners could powerwash away the smell and grime on the sidewalks too.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

11th and market and going down to at least 5th isn't really any better either. I walked it today and there was some funky smell, like urine or something along Market St that made me queasy. Also, this part of Market St. looked dirty or didn't present itself well. Did not see anything remarkable at the moment to want to be hanging around. Maybe if I had to shop at 5 Below or something, I would do so and move on. Didn't feel like there was a particular reason to hang around. However, with all this being said, I still hold out hope that big and small changes will move the needle to a better feel and look on Market going into Old City going forward. Personally, I think some nice planters and other softscapes could go a long way. Maybe store front owners could powerwash away the smell and grime on the sidewalks too.

Lol sometimes y'all are too much. You really want east market to NOT smell like urine? What's next? Knock Penn off the top of city hall?

Seriously though, everyone needs to relax. Huge improvements in this area in the past 5 years. Still a long way to go, but there is no reason to be so pessimistic. And if you really want to enjoy Philadelphia to the fullest, probably just get over the smell of urine.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Very true. Anyone who's spent any time there can attest that it's a monumental improvement. The "Fashion District" piece...we shall see...

It is not a monumental improvement at pedestrian level. That's the problem. Looking at pics of the developed structures is fine and from a distance it looks impressive- but at street level it's not. In fact, the 1100 block still seems unfinished due to the missing street lights, sidewalk barriers and cracking sidewalks.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

11th and market and going down to at least 5th isn't really any better either. I walked it today and there was some funky smell, like urine or something along Market St that made me queasy. Also, this part of Market St. looked dirty or didn't present itself well. Did not see anything remarkable at the moment to want to be hanging around. Maybe if I had to shop at 5 Below or something, I would do so and move on. Didn't feel like there was a particular reason to hang around. However, with all this being said, I still hold out hope that big and small changes will move the needle to a better feel and look on Market going into Old City going forward. Personally, I think some nice planters and other softscapes could go a long way. Maybe store front owners could powerwash away the smell and grime on the sidewalks too.

I walk that stretch every day. I think the smell is from the trash in the sewer system. It smells like a garbage truck. If you look down in there, you can see it rotting. And I get the feeling there is no plan for that to go away.

The homelessness and vagrancy is going to be a very difficult problem to wash away from that stretch. Tourism will always make that a destination for that crowd - tourists are the ones giving out the cash. And the fact that no one has figured out how or if they want to move them along (whether you really can or not) is the issue.

I think the North side of Market is actually pretty much done - from City Hall to Indy Hall. It's the South side that needs work. But It seems that more than one prospective developer has indicated that further development will hinge on how well the East Market/FDP numbers. I'm really hoping for that to hit well. That damn Disney hole kills me everytime. I keep imagining a huge art deco hotel with upscale ground floor retail everytime I walk by.

11th street, south of market is going to look completely different in a few years. There is incredible momentum going on there.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Redddog

I think the North side of Market is actually pretty much done - from City Hall to Indy Hall. It's the South side that needs work.

Very true, but for the surface lot at 13th. It's simply harder to appreciate when nice stuff fronts (with few exceptions) on a blocks-long dumpster on the south side from 7th to 11th. However, we're only two big projects away from a turnaround. Targeting the Disney hole and the 1000 block would cover most of it.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Very true, but for the surface lot at 13th. It's simply harder to appreciate when nice stuff fronts (with few exceptions) on a blocks-long dumpster on the south side from 7th to 11th. However, we're only two big projects away from a turnaround. Targeting the Disney hole and the 1000 block would cover most of it.

Truly. I will say, I would love it if those blocks, when they do develop, aren't block-long superstores. It would be cool if eventual developers would keep the smaller storefront platform that leads to a diversity of merchants and that would also be easier to fill from a rent perspective. A mix is the goal and we already have the huge tenant thing happening.

[summersm343]

Something's wrong with my Philly.com subscription it seems, and I can't get into this article about Freeman's auction moving. Can anyone get into it to see if there are any tidbits in here?

https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/com...ng-2400-market-fitler-club-20190905.html

[summersm343]

And can anyone get into this PBJ article about 1620 Sansom?

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...-property-leased-to-sonder-hits-the.html