Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by roger1818

So you are saying that when it is -50 with wind chill outside, the underground stations will also have a wind chill of -50?

Wind Chill is not a real temperature. The temperature is the temperature.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Wind Chill is not a real temperature. The temperature is the temperature.

Yep! I'm always so annoyed at people who tall about wind chill like its a real thing. Or Humidex for that matter. Just a dumb way for weather reporters to make weather sound more dramatic than it is.

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

This just proves that Ottawa was smarter in their choice of a fully grade-separated system and that at grade LRT is always a very bad idea.

Or we just don't know how to build efficient fast and reliable LRT/Trams in North America. Why? Because we're stuck in that ''All car, All Road'' mentality. It's one thing to build the trains, tracks etc... but it's another to acutally integrate them inside a road system. If the Ion LRT was built in Europe I can already tell you that we would've seen a couple things done differently :

1) LRT/Trams has full road priority. Wich means priority at traffic lights, priority at railroad crossing and priority on left turns.
2) Mixed pedestrian & LRT tracks road/street excluded of any road traffic.
3) No horrible heavy rail catenary like it's the case today.

And more things to be added on.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

Or we just don't know how to build efficient fast and reliable LRT/Trams in North America. Why? Because we're stuck in that ''All car, All Road'' mentality. It's one thing to build the trains, tracks etc... but it's another to acutaly integrate them inside a road system. If the Ion LRT was built in Europe I can already tell you that we would've seen a couple things done differently :

1) LRT/Trams has full road priority. Wich means priority at traffic lights, priority at railroad crossing and priority on left turns.
2) Mixed pedestrian & LRT tracks road/street excluded of any road traffic.
3) No horrible heavy rail catenary like it's the case today.

And more things to be added on.

The only way for this to happen is for people in government to actually make an attempt to end car culture here and I dont see this happening any time soon.

[Corvulpes]

a

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by CityTech

C-Train has had many accidents over the years. Lots of fatalities from being at grade.

We will not avoid that entirely. A large portion of the fatalities in Calgary were suicides. That will happen in Ottawa too, regardless of grade separation.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We will not avoid that entirely. A large portion of the fatalities in Calgary were suicides. That will happen in Ottawa too, regardless of grade separation.

It also happens in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We will not avoid that entirely. A large portion of the fatalities in Calgary were suicides. That will happen in Ottawa too, regardless of grade separation.

[B]When looking at the 74 people who died at C-Train stations between 1985 and last year, 66 were pedestrians struck by trains, three were cyclists and five were killed in car-train collisions.

Two-thirds of those deaths are believed to be accidents, and 31 per cent were suicides.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/c-train-driver-hits-pedestrian-1.4867508

Only 31% are suicides. That's dozens of lives lost due to lack of grade separation.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Wind Chill is not a real temperature. The temperature is the temperature.

I agree Wind Chill isn't a real temperature, but instead is a "perceived temperature." As such, it only applies to human flesh and not inanimate objects. Considering we are talking about comfort waiting for a train, it is significant (the outdoor platforms will have some shelter from the wind, but won't be completely sheltered). If we were talking about the operation of the trains, I agree it would be irreverent.

Originally Posted by CityTech

Yep! I'm always so annoyed at people who tall about wind chill like its a real thing. Or Humidex for that matter. Just a dumb way for weather reporters to make weather sound more dramatic than it is.

Wind chill and humidex are real things and are calculated based on the evaporative properties of skin.

Liquids require heat to evaporate, so when they do, they will extract heat from the surrounding air and objects and thus cool them down. When air blows across a wet object (skin is 64% water), some of that water will evaporate, causing that object to cool down. How much water will evaporate (and thus how much it will cool the object) depends on several factors including the speed of the air flow (wind speed) and the relative humidity of the air.

Wind chill and humidex values are determined by formulas made by Environment Canada based on a combination of physics and studies using human participants. As I said before, they only apply to humans and not inanimate objects. They are also an estimate as there are a variety of factors that can't be accounted for in the real world. Regarding plants and animals, a similar effect exists, but the formulas would likely be slightly different.

Originally Posted by Corvulpes

I didn't say there's no difference, I said there's not that much difference. It's still really hot in summer and really cold in winter. Basically, you won't need to dress any differently.

Thanks for the clarification. Time will tell, but I still would be surprised if on the coldest days, the platforms in the tunnel won't be significantly more comfortable than the platforms at the above ground stations. I'm not suggesting they will be room temperature, just more comfortable.

[Radster]

Originally Posted by On Edge

They could have tried to reduce the transfers from airport to downtown from two to one. Too bad they did not seriously consider running alternate trains to Airport/Limebank, or just carving one car off to go to the airport on each run. Instead we get Airport - South keys. South Keys- Bayview, Bayview-downtown. ugh.

Maybe they will run alternate trains one day when they realise how empty the trains from the South are and how inconvenient it is to transfer twice from the Airport to Downtown? Maybe not every second train, but every 3rd train could be airport bound from Bayview one day?

[Tails2489]

Originally Posted by Radster

Maybe they will run alternate trains one day when they realise how empty the trains from the South are and how inconvenient it is to transfer twice from the Airport to Downtown? Maybe not every second train, but every 3rd train could be airport bound from Bayview one day?

Couldn't agree more. How was this not implemented from the start??

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Radster

Maybe they will run alternate trains one day when they realise how empty the trains from the South are and how inconvenient it is to transfer twice from the Airport to Downtown? Maybe not every second train, but every 3rd train could be airport bound from Bayview one day?

Once the train reaches Limebank, I expect a huge surge in development and as I have mentioned before, expect people from Barrhaven to cross the bridge and use it. I expect demand from the south will grow continuously.

We already know that trains to the airport will be run at a huge loss. There is little transit demand at the airport.

Running trains every 24 minutes alternately between Limebank and the airport or on an irregular schedule will be a net loss for everybody.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by On Edge

They could have tried to reduce the transfers from airport to downtown from two to one. Too bad they did not seriously consider running alternate trains to Airport/Limebank, or just carving one car off to go to the airport on each run. Instead we get Airport - South keys. South Keys- Bayview, Bayview-downtown. ugh.

The problem is the frequency of service on the main line. With a maximum frequency of 1 train every 12 minutes, alternating trains would mean a maximum frequency of 1 train every 24 minutes on each branch. That just isn't frequent enough to be convenient during peak periods (it isn't all about capacity). Off peak it might be okay (currently they only have 30 minute service south of the airport then), but then it gets more confusing to the user if they only have direct trains off peak.

If they can get it down to 1 train every 10 minutes on the main line, it would be better, but probably still not quite frequent enough (there is something physiological about 15 minute intervals). They really need to get it down to 1 train every 7-8 minutes on the main line before they can start thinking about alternating service.

[CityTech]

Yes. It should be noted that from the point of view of an airport traveller, alternating service would be worse. Yes, it would be 1 transfer instead of 2, but the frequency would be halved, so it would actually make the trip from downtown to the airport longer. Travel time is not determined by number of transfers.

[Kitchissippi]

The downtown tunnel stations will probably rarely, if ever, go below freezing. There is so much thermal mass in the bedrock and there will be a lot of residual heat from equipment and bodies.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The problem is the frequency of service on the main line. With a maximum frequency of 1 train every 12 minutes, alternating trains would mean a maximum frequency of 1 train every 24 minutes on each branch. That just isn't frequent enough to be convenient during peak periods (it isn't all about capacity). Off peak it might be okay (currently they only have 30 minute service south of the airport then), but then it gets more confusing to the user if they only have direct trains off peak.

If they can get it down to 1 train every 10 minutes on the main line, it would be better, but probably still not quite frequent enough (there is something physiological about 15 minute intervals). They really need to get it down to 1 train every 7-8 minutes on the main line before they can start thinking about alternating service.

one thing they could go (eventually, not immediately) to do some sort of hybrid service. Where some trains starting at limebank only go as for north as south keys, which allowed a train coming from the airport to continue north, but the frequency stays the same. And some trains some the airport will only go to southkeys as well

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The downtown tunnel stations will probably rarely, if ever, go below freezing. There is so much thermal mass in the bedrock and there will be a lot of residual heat from equipment and bodies.

That is what I was thinking. The question is how much fresh air will be blown in (often by the trains themselves) and how quickly that air can warm up.

On a somewhat unrelated note, how are the trains they heated? Is it strictly with electric heat or do they also have heat pumps for the days that aren't too cold to use them? Many BEVs are now coming with heat pumps to save on battery usage, though conservation isn't so much an issue with the trains since they don't have batteries, and given our cold climate, electric heaters will be needed at least some of the time.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by corynv

one thing they could go (eventually, not immediately) to do some sort of hybrid service. Where some trains starting at limebank only go as for north as south keys, which allowed a train coming from the airport to continue north, but the frequency stays the same. And some trains some the airport will only go to southkeys as well

You realize that introduces 3 transfers for those south of the airport. You can't build ridership with that kind of service.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by corynv

one thing they could go (eventually, not immediately) to do some sort of hybrid service. Where some trains starting at limebank only go as for north as south keys, which allowed a train coming from the airport to continue north, but the frequency stays the same. And some trains some the airport will only go to southkeys as well

The problem is both the EY Centre and Airport stations will have shorter platforms, so they wouldn't be able to run full length trains on that branch.

[passwordisnt123]

I think we should prioritize double-tracking the Trillium line as a matter of principle. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the priority for the city. So, given the city's current half-assed and neglected approach to the Trillium line, we're going to have to make some tough choices. (Almost) Everybody in the NCR needs occasionally to get to and from the airport. That should have been the operational priority from the start even if it meant sacrificing ridership in the southern suburbs.

Should the "needs" of the relatively small number of people who live in Riverside south or Leitrim outweigh the needs of literally everybody else in the entire capital region to have access to our airport? I think we're already doing more than enough to subsidize their suburban, car-centric way of life. If they have to endure the inconvenience of slightly less frequent train service, we'll just all have to find a way to cope with that vicissitude of life.