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  #11641  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 2:53 PM
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Yep, all signs point to a positive news conference, followed by a train trip with media in tow. September it is, and doors be damned!
     
     
  #11642  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 3:00 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Hearing this today? If so, it's a confirmation of the Mayor's message during his media blitz last Friday, which is good.
Yes, this morning. I can't confirm because nothing official has been circulated yet, but that seems to be what's being indicated by upper management. Like I said, fingers crossed!
     
     
  #11643  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 3:04 PM
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With all the talk that they "moved the goal posts" on the 12 days, we have to consider that we're now on day 25 of the 12 days of testing. They must have reset to day 1 a few times.

My partner and I will test out the new service sporadically over the course of the first few months to gauge speed, reliability, overcrowding the new bus service and other. If we're satisfied by January, we might very well give up our parking pass. Traffic is getting crazy and we're losing patience. I hope this will be a good alternative.

If the trains are overcrowded, I hope OC Transpo's ready to add a few Stage 2 trains to increase capacity frequency. I wonder how long it would take to test then before they could be put into service. I imagine they haven't been tested at all thus far since they've been focusing on launching Stage 1.
     
     
  #11644  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 3:25 PM
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...........

If the trains are overcrowded, I hope OC Transpo's ready to add a few Stage 2 trains to increase capacity frequency. I wonder how long it would take to test then before they could be put into service. I imagine they haven't been tested at all thus far since they've been focusing on launching Stage 1.
Good Day.

Yep, by what I saw of the 4 LRVs (two double trains) 1135-1138 of the advance build of Stage 2 vehicles in early July (they were at the rear / back of the storage barns just sitting there), and the photos of them more recently, they are still unfinished and need about 2 more months of work, and then 2 + months of testing and certification before we see them.
Absolutely the focus was on completing the Stage 1 contract vehicles. So, February at the earliest, IMO.

My 2 cents.
     
     
  #11645  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 3:36 PM
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Since I was spotting the trains not too long ago, I can tell you that it makes a lot of noise when a train enters the trench. The rail technology they used + the way the trench was built + the speed at which the trains role in the trench, makes the whole thing pretty loud. It's a chain reaction… the rails are laid on concrete and not ballast (rocks) which makes the track vibration louder, the train runs at 80km/h which makes a lot of vibrations and those vibrations are carried out in a narrow open-air trench. (vibration = noise)

In the last video I made, you can see at 3:49 ( https://youtu.be/7rn42uvu-ow?t=230 ) the train transitioning from the tracks laid on ballast to the tracks laid on concrete... as soon as the train hits the concrete section the noise is multiplied by at least 3. A couple solutions would be able to fix the problem:

1) [Easy but costly] : Lay ballast one the entire section from Parkdale Avenue to Merton Street. This wouldn't cure the problem fully but would make the noise level much more acceptable for nearby residents.
I don't believe The City officials when they say that they could not lay the tracks on ballast! The trillium line has a much narrower trench, yet the tracks are laid on ballast.

2) [The most expensive & technically challenging] : Cover the trench and basically make the section an underground tunnel. This would completely resolve the problem. However, that would mean shutting down the line for at least another year which would mean continue with our unreliable bus network for the time being which is clearly not an option for The City and commuters. Plus, it would mean adding at least an extra 250M that City doesn't have.
However, such a scenario would permit the creation of a linear park along Scott's Street, which would be a plus for the neighborhood.

3) [One of the most plausible] : Install sound barriers. It wouldn't really resolve anything since the noise would only be deviated up to the nearby high-rise condos. However, for people living in houses right by the trench it would permit a temporary solution that would maybe make the noise more livable.

4) [Also plausible] : The City decides to fund high quality noise isolating windows for nearby residents. Then again it wouldn't resolve the problem completely since in Summer much of these residences would have their windows open during the day. But during colder weather it would definitely help. Plus the cost of such an operation would be significantly lower than any of the above solutions.

5) [The most likely and cheapest] : Simply reduce the speed of the trains in the trench and make them run at a speed around 50km/h. That would reduce the vibrations travelling in the tracks therefore reduce the noise in the trench significantly. However it would make the trains slower and the trip slightly longer (couple seconds).

PS: I lived in London (UK) when I was much younger, my dad was working there, and we had a high density rail line (London to East-Midlands Mainline I believe) about 600 meters from our house. During some parts of the day trains would be zooming past the neighborhood every 1 or 2 minutes. They had large scale sound barriers surrounding the neighborhood, and even with that we could hear the trains passing in the entire area. When you're not used to it, it can be quite difficult but after 1 or 2 days you just get used to it and bearly notice it. And remember London is the City in the occidental part of the world with the densest Rail network, so you're never far from a Rail or Metro line, most of them being open air.
They won't have to shut down the line to cover the trench. Maybe some weekend closures but that's it. Similar coverings have been done all over the world without shutting down the lines. Toronto subway for the trenched portion of Line 1 between Bloor and Eglinton, and Calgary library enclosure are two Canadian examples.
     
     
  #11646  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 4:01 PM
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It doesn't need to be covered. There are no noise issues. It's a slight change and people just freak out over any kind of change. She lost her whole credibility likening it to F18s.
     
     
  #11647  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 4:24 PM
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a

Last edited by Corvulpes; Sep 4, 2019 at 6:58 PM.
     
     
  #11648  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Corvulpes View Post
They seem to have changed/reduced the schedule in am peak to 13 trains, perhaps because they keep breaking...
One would think that would be an automatic fail. Removing two full trains reduces the capacity significantly, unless they can (safely) increase the speeds enough to make up for it, which seems plausible with the Thales system. As far as I know, the Thales system is one aspect we haven't had any issues with.

Before someone brings up Edmonton, their issues with Thales were due to the at-grade alignment of the Metro Line and interlining with the 70s era Capital Line running on an incompatible "moving block" system.
     
     
  #11649  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 4:35 PM
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....

If the trains are overcrowded, I hope OC Transpo's ready to add a few Stage 2 trains to increase capacity frequency. I wonder how long it would take to test then before they could be put into service. I imagine they haven't been tested at all thus far since they've been focusing on launching Stage 1.
If frequency is increased, won't this impact bus service at the current end-stations? Without climate controlled stations, mobs of people waiting for buses at Tunney and Blair in mid-January won't be a pleasant or positive experience.
     
     
  #11650  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by osirisboy View Post
It doesn't need to be covered. There are no noise issues. It's a slight change and people just freak out over any kind of change. She lost her whole credibility likening it to F18s.
You obviously haven't watched the TV news story video. You couldn't conduct a normal conversation outside. And with trains running up to every 3 minutes each way, it means that the noise is almost constant from 5 am to 1 or 2 am.
     
     
  #11651  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 4:49 PM
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If frequency is increased, won't this impact bus service at the current end-stations? Without climate controlled stations, mobs of people waiting for buses at Tunney and Blair in mid-January won't be a pleasant or positive experience.
The problem is in off-peak periods when connecting buses are infrequent, but that is already the case today.
     
     
  #11652  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by NOWINYOW View Post
If frequency is increased, won't this impact bus service at the current end-stations? Without climate controlled stations, mobs of people waiting for buses at Tunney and Blair in mid-January won't be a pleasant or positive experience.
Increasing the frequency of the train won't impact the bus service. If you have 12,000 people an hour being shuttled to Blair on 15 trains or 16 trains, it makes no difference to the bus service, but will make the trains service that much more pleasant. Passengers will still have to wait the "up to" the same x minutes for the next bus when they get to Blair or Tunney's.

OC Transpo needs to maintain adequate service on both the rail lines and bus routes. Increase the train or buses depending on demand for each route. But it will never be possible to "time it" perfectly.
     
     
  #11653  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 5:56 PM
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They won't have to shut down the line to cover the trench. Maybe some weekend closures but that's it. Similar coverings have been done all over the world without shutting down the lines. Toronto subway for the trenched portion of Line 1 between Bloor and Eglinton, and Calgary library enclosure are two Canadian examples.

My ideal would be if they covered the trench and then constructed affordable housing of some sort on top. This would help solve the noise problem, as well as get some affordable housing close to rapid transit, but save the land cost. Also since the affordable housing was beside the LRT station, parking could be skipped further reducing costs. Also more affordable housing is simply needed.
     
     
  #11654  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 6:29 PM
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My ideal would be if they covered the trench and then constructed affordable housing of some sort on top. This would help solve the noise problem, as well as get some affordable housing close to rapid transit, but save the land cost. Also since the affordable housing was beside the LRT station, parking could be skipped further reducing costs. Also more affordable housing is simply needed.
Building structures that have to be lived in, right over train tracks would not be cheap. Also, at that point, tunnel ventilation, evacuation paths, etc. become relevant.
     
     
  #11655  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Corvulpes View Post
They seem to have changed/reduced the schedule in am peak to 13 trains, perhaps because they keep breaking...
I can't find a reference, but I thought the original plan was to have less frequent service in the PM peak than in the AM peak, since the PM peak is stretched over a longer duration. It was only in the past few months that I started to hear that the PM peak would have the same frequency as the AM peak, which I thought was strange.
     
     
  #11656  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Building structures that have to be lived in, right over train tracks would not be cheap. Also, at that point, tunnel ventilation, evacuation paths, etc. become relevant.
How are the evacuation paths more relevant in a tunnel than they are in a trench? You can't expect people to scale a rock wall to escape. AFAIK, they don't have stairs between stations in the trench, so I expect they would have them walk to the nearest station. That could still be done in a tunnel.

The point about the need for a TVS makes sense though.
     
     
  #11657  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
One would think that would be an automatic fail. Removing two full trains reduces the capacity significantly, unless they can (safely) increase the speeds enough to make up for it, which seems plausible with the Thales system. As far as I know, the Thales system is one aspect we haven't had any issues with.

Before someone brings up Edmonton, their issues with Thales were due to the at-grade alignment of the Metro Line and interlining with the 70s era Capital Line running on an incompatible "moving block" system.
If they managed to handle capacity at 13 trains that's a major win.. Means faster service and easier to increase frequency by adding more trains later on.
     
     
  #11658  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 7:12 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I can't find a reference, but I thought the original plan was to have less frequent service in the PM peak than in the AM peak, since the PM peak is stretched over a longer duration. It was only in the past few months that I started to hear that the PM peak would have the same frequency as the AM peak, which I thought was strange.
The posted schedules only have the granularity of a full minute, so for all we know the AM frequency could be 2.8-3.1 minutes and the afternoon a solid 3.5 minutes or something (just random numbers).

Corvulpes mentioned that they use two fewer trains for the PM peak, but I don't know how that changes if they decided to pull two trains from the AM peak to begin with.
     
     
  #11659  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 7:28 PM
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How are the evacuation paths more relevant in a tunnel than they are in a trench? You can't expect people to scale a rock wall to escape. AFAIK, they don't have stairs between stations in the trench, so I expect they would have them walk to the nearest station. That could still be done in a tunnel.

The point about the need for a TVS makes sense though.
Fire makes it more relevant. Smoke goes up and out in the trench, but it would travel along a tunnel, so the exit has to be closer. I'm not sure where emergency exits are in the downtown tunnel.
     
     
  #11660  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 7:43 PM
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Fire makes it more relevant. Smoke goes up and out in the trench, but it would travel along a tunnel, so the exit has to be closer. I'm not sure where emergency exits are in the downtown tunnel.
In the downtown tunnel, the ventilation shafts seem to only be at each end of the stations. I don't know if there are "official" emergency exists of if passengers would just be directed to use the regular service stairs.

One of the reasons stated to move Cleary to the Byron Strip as an open air station was so that they could eliminate the need for a ventilation shed. I'm wondering if, in the case of open air stations between tunnel section, they only use "natural" ventilation.

If so, that would be the case for a Scott Street tunnel. All three stations would remain open air.
     
     
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