I keep hearing "Toronto is coming close to Chicago" but I dont see it

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by kolchak

That pic was to illustrate the cityscape - not any single building. There is just a lot of mid-rise low rise density in Chicago and some but a fair amount less in Toronto. I'm not implying it - I'm saying exactly that.

On the other hand my responses here are not meant to be any more or less condescending than the posts I am replying to. And while not a versus thread it is a comparison thread. If you read all my recent posts I believe I have tried to strike a balance in my comments. I lived in Europe for almost ten years and maintain a dual residency so I do have some knowledge there

When someone says that Toronto has passed Madrid and is poised to shortly join the ranks of Paris, NYC and Shanghai though, I do think that's ridiculous - for many reasons that are not really worth getting into here.

But I get it - stay on topic - this is a skyscraper thread and I don't want to steer the discourse here into a (IMO endless and boring exercise) City vs City thing.

isaidso did not say that Toronto has passed Madrid and will join NYC, etc. He said Toronto is a global city and thus operates in the same plane as Stockholm, Melbourne, NYC for global talent and capital. Toronto arguably is a larger and wealthier city than Stockholm and Melbourne while smaller and less powerful than NYC. Thesecities were grouped together for being global cities. Chicago is not a global city, it is a regional American city, albeit a powerful one, and has a similar sized economy and population to Toronto.

Anyway, this is a classic city-vs-city thread, and kolchak despite his pretensions, is hardly being objective. I grant you kolchak that a couple forumers on the other side are also poorly informed and boosterish too but be honest with yourself, you're very much a Chicago booster with your USA-centric blinkers on. I'm a dual citizen of Canada and the USA who has spent over a decade in Europe.

[Doady]

Let's be serious though. Neither Toronto or Chicago are really all that great. They both pale in comparison to Montreal and NYC in many ways.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Doady

Let's be serious though. Neither Toronto or Chicago are really all that great. They both pale in comparison to Montreal and NYC in many ways.

Speak for yourself, i prefer Chicago to NYC, and i prefer Toronto to Montreal. I also prefer Toronto to NYC, but Montreal and Chicago are a toss up, i'd probably give Montreal a bit of an edge over Chicago.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Speak for yourself, i prefer Chicago to NYC, and i prefer Toronto to Montreal. I also prefer Toronto to NYC, but Montreal and Chicago are a toss up, i'd probably give Montreal a bit of an edge over Chicago.

Fair enough. I have to admit I wasn't totally serious. But there are certain things about every city we can appreciate. Every city can be a model for other cities in some way. I don't see why pit two cities against each other so much. Toronto should aspire to be more like Chicago, and Chicago should aspire to be more like Toronto.

[kolchak]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Chicago is not a global city, it is a regional American city, albeit a powerful one, and has a similar sized economy and population to Toronto.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.citylab.com/amp/article/386315/

https://wearetop10.com/wealthiest-cities-of-the-world-by-gdp/

Fortune global 500 companies:

Chicago 12

Canada 11

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/3393565/best-museums-trip-advisor/%3Fsource%3Ddam

https://www.google.com/amp/s/classicalli...-orchestras-according-to-gramophone/amp/

I have not said that Toronto isn't a rising star. But to deny that Chicago is a global player is inaccurate.

[Waterlooson]

Originally Posted by kolchak

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.citylab.com/amp/article/386315/

https://wearetop10.com/wealthiest-cities-of-the-world-by-gdp/

Fortune global 500 companies:

Chicago 12

Canada 11

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/3393565/best-museums-trip-advisor/%3Fsource%3Ddam

https://www.google.com/amp/s/classicalli...-orchestras-according-to-gramophone/amp/

I have not said that Toronto isn't a rising star. But to deny that Chicago is a global player is inaccurate.

While there isn't any question that Chicagoland is a business powerhouse, it's
no where near as important to business activity or prominence as the entire country of Canada as you seem to be foolishly implying. As through, Toronto is no match for Chicago since Chicago bests Canada!!! This demonstrates that the criterion (Fortune global 500) that you have used to compare is of very limited value.

I can just as easily compare the number of large international companies that have their Canadian head office in the Toronto area and compare that number with the number of large international companies that have their US head office in the Chicago area, and it wouldn't be close. 100 to 1 perhaps in favor of Toronto? Understand that the majority of such companies with Canadian representation have their head office in the Toronto area.

The links you have provided are also of very limited value because they often don't make completely valid comparisons.... i.e. Chicagoland vs. Toronto metro if not just the city.... how about Chicagoland vs. the Golden Horseshoe? And as far as which is the better off of the two... I can see, I've been to both and Chicago has a far more in terms of square mileage of poor crime ridden neighborhoods than the GTAH. There's a great deal of wealth in Chicago as well.... but it's more concentrated.

[isaidso]

Perhaps we can now start the 'I keep hearing Toronto is coming close to NYC but I don't see it' thread?

[Sarah89]

Is Chicago really a globalized city though? Look at that cities demographics - it's American blacks, American whites and some immigrants from Latin American countries and well as small tickles of some Arabs. That is nothing like Toronto. Why is there large population of recent immigrants? Chicago is losing population and still gasp.. white flighting. Toronto is not losing population. Comparing Toronto to Chicago is an insult.

[isaidso]

Your assertion is off base imo. Perhaps fleshing out the issue a little more would be helpful. Chicago has 10 million people, economic heft, grand architecture, a huge airport, and a skyline to match. It was enough to make Chicago part of the conversation. Despite all these attributes Chicago has never been a big international city like London, Hong Kong, New York, Paris, or Tokyo. Chicago is unusual in that it's big and powerful but not on the global radar like the other cities it's grouped with.

If one digs deeper one really has to question how long Chicago can maintain its global standing. Like you said, Chicago's population isn't all that international, the overall population is flat lining, and immigrants don't seem interested either. It may bruise some egos in Illinois but Toronto has a higher profile around the world and the gap is widening. Toronto has long been a global magnet for immigrants and the city's international profile is rising. Being the largest city in a G7 nation has its perks.

Grouping Toronto and Chicago together makes sense on many levels but likely won't make sense 15-20 years from now. Size matters but it can only carry you so far. At this point size and heft seem to be the only significant attributes working in Chicago's favour. They used to be the US' 2nd city; then LA dropped it to 3rd. Chicago could conceivably fall to 6th within a generation.

[eltodesukane]

Chicago is the new Detroit, meaning it's going downward.

Population history
1940 3,396,808 0.6%
1950 3,620,962 6.6%
1960 3,550,404 −1.9%
1970 3,366,957 −5.2%
1980 3,005,072 −10.7%
1990 2,783,911 −7.4%
2000 2,896,016 4.0%
2010 2,695,598 −6.9%

There have been 462 homicides in Chicago in 2019.
https://graphics.suntimes.com/homicides/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-homicides-data-tracker-htmlstory.html

[GeneralLea]

Bwahaha. Now that's ridiculous. Chicago may not be growing as it once had, but by no means is it anywhere close to what Detroit had been and currently is. The city is doing great economically and is very livable, and I can't find any conceivable way where Chicago would go down under.....it's doing quite well for itself, but it does have it's crime and social issues.

[WhipperSnapper]

Beyond the crime issue, Chicago's disadvantage is that it's at the coldest end of the country. Chicago's fundamentals are still much more stable than Toronto's. What we've done in Toronto is build an economy around inflated growth with little regulation that will eventually blow up.

It's true Toronto's profile has been rising fast in effect. It's not that simple. It's not all good news to our reputation.

We can also pat ourselves on our backs for maintaining impressive immigration numbers. Delve deeper and you can see an obvious downward shift in talent as Toronto has become more expensive and less competitive.

[The Pimp]

Originally Posted by Sarah89

Is Chicago really a globalized city though? Look at that cities demographics - it's American blacks, American whites and some immigrants from Latin American countries and well as small tickles of some Arabs. That is nothing like Toronto. Why is there large population of recent immigrants? Chicago is losing population and still gasp.. white flighting. Toronto is not losing population. Comparing Toronto to Chicago is an insult.

You're completely misinformed about Chicago. Chicago has the largest Polish population living outside of Poland. It also has one of the largest Slavic/German/Russian populations in the world. Do your homework!

[The North One]

This thread is funny to me. I mean I've heard about Toronto arrogance from Canadians but actually reading it here. Yikes.

Toronto is not really on a world standing that you think it is (who the hell considers Toronto miles ahead of Guangzhou? Is Seoul also behind Toronto?). And while Chicago has it's problems it is a very well established mega-city with a long history and plenty of colossal cultural contributions and influence. Toronto looks like a makeshift town by comparison (hyperbole but you get the idea). Toronto still struggles to compete with Detroit in cultural relevancy and contributions (you can completely forget about architecture and history, Toronto is probably on the same level as Columbus OH in that regard).

Toronto only seems more international because of it's immigrants which Canada heavily steers into the city. The US is not so accommodating to immigrants for obvious reasons but that's no fault of Chicago and Chicago does not have the unique position of being at the drivers seat of an entire nation that allows it to disproportionately suck up resources. Had it not been for Quebec's separatism movement would Toronto even be anything? Probably not. Not to be harsh but for all the hubris there really isn't much special about Toronto.

So while Toronto will likely and eventually surpass Chicagoland in population and size of economy it wont be anywhere close to it in all other aspects. Toronto is the more traditionally urban Dallas Texas of the North American Great Lakes and that's just the most honest and truthful comparison.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

Chicago is the new Detroit, meaning it's going downward.

Population history
1940 3,396,808 0.6%
1950 3,620,962 6.6%
1960 3,550,404 −1.9%
1970 3,366,957 −5.2%
1980 3,005,072 −10.7%
1990 2,783,911 −7.4%
2000 2,896,016 4.0%
2010 2,695,598 −6.9%

There have been 462 homicides in Chicago in 2019.
https://graphics.suntimes.com/homicides/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-homicides-data-tracker-htmlstory.html

Chicago is in a slow spiral down that will see Toronto surpass it in most categories in the 2020's

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Nite

Chicago is in a slow spiral down that will see Toronto surpass it in most categories in the 2020's

People concentrate on population but Toronto has passed Chicago in a ton of areas already.

[isaidso]

Transportation Snapshot


- Airport by passengers 2018: Chicago O'Hare (83,339,186) vs. Toronto Pearson (49,507,418)
- Airport by international passengers 2018: Toronto Pearson (31,610,348) vs. Chicago O'Hare (13,947,231)
- Busiest Highway 2017 by traffic: Toronto 401 (431,900 AADT) vs Chicago I-90 (330,000 AADT)
- Commuter rail 2018 by average weekday ridership: Chicago Metra (277,100) vs Toronto GO (217,500)
- Subway daily boardings 2018: Toronto (1,343,600) vs Chicago (719,700)
- Light rail daily boardings 2018: Toronto (199,700) vs Chicago (none)
- Busiest rail station by annual entries/exits 2018: Toronto Union (72,410,000) vs Chicago Union (43,948,000)
- Cycling infrastructure: Toronto 917 km (273 + 314 + 330) vs Chicago 836 km (640 + 160 + 36)

If one adjusts the international passenger numbers by excluding traffic between the US and Canada Toronto Pearson still comes out ahead by a long shot; Toronto is a much bigger international hub. Chicago also has Midway Airport while Toronto has Billy Bishop. Midway is MUCH bigger/busier. Regarding commuter rail, Metra and GO both serve an area of roughly 9.8 million people. Overall, Chicago has a busier air travel system while Toronto has busier rail and highway systems. If one includes Hamilton, Toronto's cycling infrastructure is ahead. I suspect both cycling and walking are more prevalent in Toronto.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bu...senger_traffic#2019_half-year_statistics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_airports_by_international_passenger_traffic
https://www.flychicago.com/SiteCollectio...ures/AirTraffic/1218%20ORD%20SUMMARY.pdf
https://www.isitpacked.com/2011/03/31/the-busiest-freeway-in-north-america-highway-401/
https://www.illinoisvehicle.com/about-us/blog/traffic-patterns-chicago/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail_in_North_America
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_rapid_transit_systems_by_ridership
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_light_rail_systems_by_ridership
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_railway_stations_in_North_America
https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/c...ontos-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

isaidso did not say that Toronto has passed Madrid and will join NYC, etc. He said Toronto is a global city and thus operates in the same plane as Stockholm, Melbourne, NYC for global talent and capital. Toronto arguably is a larger and wealthier city than Stockholm and Melbourne while smaller and less powerful than NYC. Thesecities were grouped together for being global cities.

Thank you. People often read what they want to read rather than what is written.

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Chicago is not a global city, it is a regional American city, albeit a powerful one, and has a similar sized economy and population to Toronto.

For Americans in particular Chicago is a global city and it has most of the qualities of one: big airport, lots of multi-nationals, 9.5 million people, big economy, etc. That said, for many people (especially beyond North America) Chicago has already dropped off their radar. It's sad but increasingly true.

When they see the US they see New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Miami, and Washington first. I agree that Chicago is transitioning into a big powerful US city from a global one but I doubt Chicago has come to terms with that yet. Population and economy are important; Chicago is still #3 in the US. But it can't carry a city alone. Osaka is another case in point. It's big and powerful but more of a national entity than international in scope.

[Arcologist]

Excellent comparisons isaidso, thanks!

[metalpressed]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

This is true. But being an American city, you are still subject to issues that hopefully we never will have to worry about in Canadian cities.

While most of the danger is confined to some neighborhoods, there have been issues in the nice areas. The swarming and attacks on Michigan Ave of shoppers, the beating up of people coming out of gay bars on the north side, school issues, and other concerns.

This is not just a Chicago thing, but happens in most American cities.

Oh cut out this nonsense. What?! "The swarming and attacking of Michigan avenue shoppers"? Are you mentally ill?

You lose the argument about Chicago being somehow particularly horrible, and then make an even more absurd assertion that Chicago is bad just because it's American, revealing your implicit bias when the foremost way you position your entire post is: "but being an American city..." as if American cities are specifically horrible.

Which we know you're not reliable to have conversations like this, because foreigners will never admit America is better than their own country even when it's winning all the time.

So you tell desperate, nonsense stories about people being attacked coming out of gay bars or Michigan avenue shoppers being attacked to legitimize your stupid, specific anti-American cities BS. Go home.