Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Most of that is residential (the population of DTK will double in the next two years!), but DTK is also seeing its first new build office construction in over 25 years.

Is that supposed to be a joke? Having said that, Kitchener seems to have maybe a couple hundred people living downtown. Where's the traffic?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I literally said the purpose of the line was development. And that's my point. It's primary purpose is not mobility.



For a bus maybe. For a rapid transit system that is the trunk of the regional network, that's ridiculous. And that's the peak frequency. For most of the day, it's 10-15 mins.



All of that could have been achieved with BRT for less, and since it's cheaper to buy buses, frequencies could have been ramped up.



And what I'm saying is that BRT would have delivered KWC much more. And built right, they could have always converted to LRT later like Ottawa did. As it stands, it's doubtful that anyone who doesn't live along the line will use it.

I agree that BRT would be advantageous in some lower-density areas, and can cover more area. But it certainly wasn’t an option for the ION route, which travels right through the core of both cities. BRT would have a hugely negative impact on traditional mainstreet areas like DTK and Uptown Waterloo. Nor would it have spurred development in the same way as the LRT. BRT has almost no track record of spurring compact urban development.

It is true that some of the new development is not on the LRT route, but the vast majority is right in that corridor. And the development and mobility goals are not mutually exclusive. There is no way that downtown Kitchener would be seeing this level of residential demand without a convenient way to access the universities and adjacent high tech parks.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Is that supposed to be a joke? Having said that, Kitchener seems to have maybe a couple hundred people living downtown. Where's the traffic?

Maybe 20 years ago, but not now. There are at least 10 large scale projects underway as we speak, including a 39-storey tower that rivals the Icon.

[OCCheetos]

Rode my bike through Bayview today. Trains running every 4 minutes (mid-day frequency).

Heard a voice announcement say something along the lines of "Attention: The O-Train Line 2 has resumed regular service" which I found interesting. Trains still aren't going to Bayview of course.

I wonder how they transition between 3 and 4 minute headways. Do they take a train out of circulation, or do they just increase the dwell times at each end slightly?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Is that supposed to be a joke? Having said that, Kitchener seems to have maybe a couple hundred people living downtown. Where's the traffic?

No joke. The population of DTK is supposedly around 2500 people.

[J.OT13]

So three more days. So, would that be today or tomorrow? Not that I have much confidence. I'd wager we won't hear anything "official" that could be considered of substance until the September FEDCO meeting.

[J.OT13]

Mathieu Fleury posted a 13 second slide show of five Rideau Station pictures. Nothing we haven't seen yet.

https://twitter.com/MathieuFleury/status/1160546447248568322

I'm disappointed the City hasn't posted any other station walk-troughs or Ready4Rail videos in the last few months. I assume they'll launch a promotional blitz once RSA is achieved up until 3-4 weeks after the service is launched (after the parallel bus service is terminated).

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So three more days. So, would that be today or tomorrow? Not that I have much confidence. I'd wager we won't hear anything "official" that could be considered of substance until the September FEDCO meeting.

Unless by some small chance it hands over on the 16th. I expect alot of crowing in that seemingly unlikely scenario.

[Ontario1]

Watch, they'll just get it up and running and then it will snow.....then shut down for 2 months to work out bugs.

[pattherat]

Originally Posted by Ontario1

Watch, they'll just get it up and running and then it will snow.....then shut down for 2 months to work out bugs.

You know that was a bullshit story right? And was readily explained in a Fedco meeting that the train was buried in snow after it was left on the tracks during the worst storm of the year? (And said Fedco replay is available to the public on the City’s YouTube channel)

Didn’t think so...

[midriser]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But I think they are just adding up all of the building permits across a huge swath of the cities. That isn’t causation.

It was unclear to me exactly how people are supposed to use this system beyond as a student shuttle service and pre-existing bus users. There are no park and rides, not much in the way of feeder routes, no residential areas along the line. I guess the idea is that high-income condo dwellers will spend close to an hour going to Zehrs, but that seems unrealistic to me.

While it's true that the central goal of the KW LRT line was to spur development and that it's nowhere near as robust of a transit service as the Confederation Line will be, there was much more thought and planning put into the transportation uses of the line than simply shuttling students around and replacing the 200 iXpress trunk bus route.

1. Park and Rides - There is in fact a park and ride, at the southern terminus of the line at Fairway station. There was planned to be a northern park and ride as well (at Northfield station), but unfortunately that was not realized. Definitely an unfortunate oversight. Plenty of other parking along the line though, with a large parkade in Uptown Waterloo and several parkades in Downtown Kitchener within very close proximity to the line.

2. Feeder bus routes - The entire GRT network has been redesigned over the last 5 or 6 years to feed into the central transit corridor. Previously, it was rare to have a crosstown bus route actually cross the city from east to west without a forced transfer somewhere along the way. Now, most routes have been straightened out (at least as much as they can be with KW's odd street network) and there are multiple east-west corridors that connect with ION stations. Among these are several new limited stop iXpress routes that previously did not exist whatsoever. These are the 200 series routes on the system map: https://www.grt.ca/en/schedules-maps/resources/GRT-System-Map-ION-light-rail-service.pdf.

Every station except one (Laurier-Waterloo Park) has connecting bus service. The two end stations are bus terminals with 10+ routes, and there are multiple stations with connections to GO Transit and Greyhound services as well. When the new transit hub at King and Victoria is complete, there will be a direct vertical transfer to VIA and GO trains, much akin to Bayview station between the Trillium and Confederation lines. List of stations with connecting routes: https://www.grt.ca/en/about-grt/connect-to-your-bus.aspx

That being said, there are several stations that do fall flat in this regard, mainly in the north end of Waterloo. The Laurier-Waterloo park station should have been located further north at University Avenue, because as it stands none of the busy University corridor routes have a direct connection to the LRT line. Similarly, had the UW station been located further north at Columbia Street, the Columbia corridor routes would not have had to divert south to the now under construction UW transit plaza to connect to the LRT.

3. Residential areas - Many of the stations have a mix of fairly dense and lower density residential areas surrounding them, with more developments under construction. Fairway, Block Line, Mill, Kitchener Market, Grand River Hospital, Allen, and the two Uptown stops have established condo/apartment tower and detached housing areas within easy walking distance. One big miss was not building a station near the former McCormick iXpress 200 stop at Parkside Drive and Glenelm Crescent. There is a cluster of high and mid rise apartments there, as well as multiple townhouse developments and more detached housing. This is also where the stop spacing between stations is the highest, and is adjacent to what will likely be the lowest usage stop (Research and Technology). A big mistake IMO.

There is much more development currently under construction or proposed directly adjacent to or within a few hundred metres of stations, including:

• Duke Tower, 39 floors (U/C)
• Charlie West, 31 floors (U/C)
• Garment Street, 25 floors + 6 floors office (U/C)
• One Hundred Victoria, 21 floors and 17 floors, (tower 1 complete tower 2 U/C)
• Young Condos tower 2, 24 floors (U/C)
• Circa 1877, 20 floors (U/C)
• Arrow Lofts Phase 2, 15 floors (U/C)
• Drewlo downtown rentals, 23 floors and 19 floors, (U/C)
• Weber & Scott, 11 floors, (U/C)
• And many other smaller 5-6 story infill projects, as well as office space at 345 King West, on the former Mayfair Hotel site, at King and Allen, and a large expansion of the Google offices, as well as proposed multi-tower large scale residential developments like Vierra Village near Block Line station, Station Park near Central station, and the Schneider's factory redevelopment near Mill station.

There's plenty of existing residential, institutional, and commercial land use around the stations to generate ridership, as well as lots more coming down the pipeline. Does KW have a strong transit-friendly CBD and prewar core like Ottawa does? No of course not, and even with all of this new development the average density around most stations will only be moderate at best. But it's not exactly a line through "no residential areas" either.

[acottawa]

^

What’s the theory on how all of these condo residents are supposed to use this line? In most cities downtown condo owners are people who want to be close (and walk) to work and/or amenities. Nobody is claiming that downtown condo dwellers are going to drive Confederation Line ridership, for example.

If there is park and ride at Fairway station it isn’t well publicized.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

But it certainly wasn’t an option for the ION route, which travels right through the core of both cities. BRT would have a hugely negative impact on traditional mainstreet areas like DTK and Uptown Waterloo.
Nor would it have spurred development in the same way as the LRT. BRT has almost no track record of spurring compact urban development.

I think there's a bit of self-delusion on the part of Waterloo fans going on here. BRT has been built in many places and it does just fine in urban areas. It doesn't take up much more room than LRT (passing lanes are the difference).

And development is entirely a function of zoning. Heck, you can have compact development with no transit at all. It's all about how cities want to zone. If the argument is that we need $800 million trams in small cities to motivate them to zone denser, than we'll truly be in trouble elsewhere, because I really doubt the feds and provinces can afford to build billion dollar LRTs in every city of half million that wants one.

Originally Posted by phil235

It is true that some of the new development is not on the LRT route, but the vast majority is right in that corridor. And the development and mobility goals are not mutually exclusive. There is no way that downtown Kitchener would be seeing this level of residential demand without a convenient way to access the universities and adjacent high tech parks.

I would contend that you'd see the same amount of development with a proper BRT that ran every 3-5 minutes. Ottawa developed a solid downtown core on exactly such a service.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by midriser

While it's true that the central goal of the KW LRT line was to spur development and that it's nowhere near as robust of a transit service as the Confederation Line will be, there was much more thought and planning put into the transportation uses of the line than simply shuttling students around and replacing the 200 iXpress trunk bus route.

1. Park and Rides - There is in fact a park and ride, at the southern terminus of the line at Fairway station. There was planned to be a northern park and ride as well (at Northfield station), but unfortunately that was not realized. Definitely an unfortunate oversight. Plenty of other parking along the line though, with a large parkade in Uptown Waterloo and several parkades in Downtown Kitchener within very close proximity to the line.

2. Feeder bus routes - The entire GRT network has been redesigned over the last 5 or 6 years to feed into the central transit corridor. Previously, it was rare to have a crosstown bus route actually cross the city from east to west without a forced transfer somewhere along the way. Now, most routes have been straightened out (at least as much as they can be with KW's odd street network) and there are multiple east-west corridors that connect with ION stations. Among these are several new limited stop iXpress routes that previously did not exist whatsoever. These are the 200 series routes on the system map: https://www.grt.ca/en/schedules-maps/resources/GRT-System-Map-ION-light-rail-service.pdf.

Every station except one (Laurier-Waterloo Park) has connecting bus service. The two end stations are bus terminals with 10+ routes, and there are multiple stations with connections to GO Transit and Greyhound services as well. When the new transit hub at King and Victoria is complete, there will be a direct vertical transfer to VIA and GO trains, much akin to Bayview station between the Trillium and Confederation lines. List of stations with connecting routes: https://www.grt.ca/en/about-grt/connect-to-your-bus.aspx

That being said, there are several stations that do fall flat in this regard, mainly in the north end of Waterloo. The Laurier-Waterloo park station should have been located further north at University Avenue, because as it stands none of the busy University corridor routes have a direct connection to the LRT line. Similarly, had the UW station been located further north at Columbia Street, the Columbia corridor routes would not have had to divert south to the now under construction UW transit plaza to connect to the LRT.

3. Residential areas - Many of the stations have a mix of fairly dense and lower density residential areas surrounding them, with more developments under construction. Fairway, Block Line, Mill, Kitchener Market, Grand River Hospital, Allen, and the two Uptown stops have established condo/apartment tower and detached housing areas within easy walking distance. One big miss was not building a station near the former McCormick iXpress 200 stop at Parkside Drive and Glenelm Crescent. There is a cluster of high and mid rise apartments there, as well as multiple townhouse developments and more detached housing. This is also where the stop spacing between stations is the highest, and is adjacent to what will likely be the lowest usage stop (Research and Technology). A big mistake IMO.

There is much more development currently under construction or proposed directly adjacent to or within a few hundred metres of stations, including:

• Duke Tower, 39 floors (U/C)
• Charlie West, 31 floors (U/C)
• Garment Street, 25 floors + 6 floors office (U/C)
• One Hundred Victoria, 21 floors and 17 floors, (tower 1 complete tower 2 U/C)
• Young Condos tower 2, 24 floors (U/C)
• Circa 1877, 20 floors (U/C)
• Arrow Lofts Phase 2, 15 floors (U/C)
• Drewlo downtown rentals, 23 floors and 19 floors, (U/C)
• Weber & Scott, 11 floors, (U/C)
• And many other smaller 5-6 story infill projects, as well as office space at 345 King West, on the former Mayfair Hotel site, at King and Allen, and a large expansion of the Google offices, as well as proposed multi-tower large scale residential developments like Vierra Village near Block Line station, Station Park near Central station, and the Schneider's factory redevelopment near Mill station.

There's plenty of existing residential, institutional, and commercial land use around the stations to generate ridership, as well as lots more coming down the pipeline. Does KW have a strong transit-friendly CBD and prewar core like Ottawa does? No of course not, and even with all of this new development the average density around most stations will only be moderate at best. But it's not exactly a line through "no residential areas" either.

Off-topic, but someone over at WRC did a count yesterday and came up with 2247 housing units currently under construction in DTK. That would make my earlier comment about a doubling of the Downtown population rather conservative.

[Truenorth00]

I actually think KWC was smart on pushing LRT since the money was there. Contrast that to say Brampton's equivocating on LRT. But they spent the better part of a billion dollars and then end up with 8 minute peak service. That's the nonsensical bit.

I actually think Ottawa's plans worked out quite nicely and really show some reasonable decisionmaking on transit. Not perfect. But we don't have anywhere close to the paralysis that Toronto see's on Scarborough. And we're spending to scale appropriately. Disputable if Waterloo is doing that.

[Gat-Train]

Missassauga decided to build BRT. We'll see in 20 years how well that works out for them.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Missassauga decided to build BRT. We'll see in 20 years how well that works out for them.

What's going on with Hurontario? They've been talking about it for years, but nothing seems to have come of it thus far.

In a mid-sized city, I think the Clagary model works best. Build an exclusive right-of-way LRT in the suburbs using existing corridors and convert a downtown street to a transit mall. Extend the LRT further-out overtime, maybe add a few lines if possible. Once capacity is required in 20-30 years, then you can build a tunnel downtown (which they haven't done because resources are tied-up in the Green Line).

Ottawa's Bus Transitway served us well for 30 years, but today we're facing major disruptions and high detour/conversion costs which could have been avoided had we built LRT in the first place. Another issue with BRT is that it does not have the same caché as rail, so you won't see as much private investment and TOD around your stations. We're lucky we were able to attract so much ridership with the system we had in place. We're also lucky we'll be able to convert most of our BRT within a little over a decade. We're already seeing the benefit of LRT vs BRT, TOD wise.

Edmonton's mistake was starting with a tunnel well before it was needed. All of their money was put into the ground and nothing was left to build an extensive system.

Kitchener-Waterloo made the right decision to build LRT, attracting private investment, but made a mistake by going the streetcar route instead of exclusive rights-of-way. The slow service and frequent accidents attest to that.

[lrt's friend]

Just remember that the Confederation Line has no Park n Ride lots either. Phase 2, we finally connect to a couple in Orleans, nothing significant for the west. If we want suburban buy-in in off-peak hours, park n rides are important.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I think you’ll see a lot of development on Scott street in ‘the coming years, as well as Richmond road as stage 2 ramps up. Stage 1 doesn’t really have that much affordable/available land around it except for Lebreton which is stuck in limbo and Cyrville where there’s a lack of imagination. Save for the downtown stations, Stage 1 doesn’t really go through that many walkable desirable neighbourhoods

Scott may not see as much as people think. The zoning between Parkdale and Bayview doesn't allow any significant increase in density due to a max height defined by an angular plane taken off the south property line of Scott Street facing lots. Most lots are very shallow, so heights (with a couple exceptions) are very limited.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Just remember that the Confederation Line has no Park n Ride lots either. Phase 2, we finally connect to a couple in Orleans, nothing significant for the west. If we want suburban buy-in in off-peak hours, park n rides are important.

Isn't there a park and ride at blair? Though that is the only one on stage 1.