Halifax Active Transportation

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

I find it a little frustrating in this thread that all cyclists tend to be lumped in together and held accountable for their worst habits.

There are plenty of cyclists who obey the rules, and some that don't, but the same can be said for pedestrians and drivers. The ire only seems to be directed at the group you have to share space with (...which this infrastructure would help mitigate, so I'm not sure where the complaints come from).

I can't speak for others, but I think you have to discuss worst case scenarios when talking about things like routing cycling traffic to sidewalks. In the situations I described in a previous post I made note of the people following the rules and mentioned that it was no problem when the rules were followed. However, the fact that some followed the rules did not take away the hazards caused by those who don't (of which there were several cases), therefore it is pointless discussing people doing the right thing.

You always have to plan for things that happen when people don't use good judgement, that's why cars are built with seat belts, airbags, high strength steel side impact beams, crumple zones, collapsible steering columns, more blunt front ends to minimize pedestrian injuries, etc., and why bicyclists have... uh... helmets.

No question, there are a lot of poor drivers on the road - selfish, aggressive, inept, etc. I could go on... and this is why I think that we need barrier-separated bike lanes, but located on less traffic-intensive streets, so we get the benefit of safety with fewer traffic issues.

IMHO, from what I've read and seen, there is no greater ire than that of a hard-core cyclist against motorcars. I can understand it on one level, but most of it is a little over the top for me.

Speaking as a pedestrian, I would love to try cycling, but I find the lack of infrastructure and the often aggressive drivers in the city intimidating. As the infrastructure improves, I'm more likely to take up cycling.

I am a pedestrian and a driver, and used to be a cyclist. One of the main reasons I stopped (there are more than one) is absolutely the reality that mixing a human on a small wheeled metal frame with 3500+ lbs of inattentively operated steel, aluminum, plastic and rubber and a difference in speed of 50+ km/h can be very unhealthy for the person on the bike. The fun of cycling was not worth the risk of dying or living the rest of my life recovering (or not recovering) from a serious injury. Definitely not worth it to me.

If good, effective separated bike lanes were constructed, so that I would only have to deal with aggressive cyclists, I would be tempted to cycle again, though only for recreation as it's just too inefficient a form of transportation for the type of traveling I have to do and the hours I have to work.

And if we're going to be completely fair, how about I complain about all of the times I've nearly been hit by a car while crossing the street in a designated crossing area while having the right of way. Or how about talking about all the pedestrians who jaywalk or otherwise cross on reds. Etc etc.

I haven't had too many situations like that as I always make sure that I make eye contact with the driver and that they have given me an indication that they see me and are going to remain stopped (I won't walk in front of any vehicle still moving). But yes, lots of folks out there who really shouldn't be behind the wheel - I agree.

Poor pedestrians are a hazard to themselves, but I also try to protect them as well. If I see somebody who appears like they will walk in front of me I will slow down and be ready to stop. I look for feet behind parked cars and try to predict what will happen. No guarantees, however, when people don't consider their personal safety important enough to try to protect it.

Sorry for the ramble, but I see too much finger pointing and blame going around and not enough accountability or effort to do their part in protecting themselves. It seems we all want everybody to look out for us, but we aren't willing to look out for ourselves. Rant over...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by atbw

It seems incredible that a third lane on a bridge is the biggest and best infrastructure project in the past quarter century. Having Cogswell coming up and the promise of Windsor St. Exchange on the horizon was always exciting, but in this context it's amazing to see what is being planned.

Agreed. Halifax has fallen way behind in keeping our infrastructure updated. This is a problem as the longer we wait, the larger hole we will have to dig ourselves out of. I'm hoping they will handle Cogswell and Windsor properly to actually constitute a significant benefit. Fingers crossed.

I think on side streets local bikeways as we see them here and in Montreal work as well as this, without the added traffic of people driving out of their way to accommodate one-way traffic. Seymour/Vernon is great on bike, I usually take that via Morris to get out of downtown.

I haven't witnessed the new bikeways in person, so I'm looking forward to seeing how they work for people. Still not enough to motivate me back onto the saddle, but lets see what happens.

Like OldDartmouthMark said, at least you're true to your opinions . But for everyone else, bikes can be endlessly adapted to different users of all ages (trikes, hand bikes, ebikes), almost always cost less than a car, and don't require $10,000 per year in upkeep. Hence why Halifax's lowest income earners have the highest rate of cycling as a primary method of transportation.

I'm a little curious where you got your $10,000 per year figure, as my costs of operation are much, much lower than that. But then I don't waste money on having the newest, latest, greatest vehicles as the depreciation that you pay for (in either purchasing or leasing) is like throwing money into the fireplace to heat your house - not a good idea.

And let's say cycling DOES create an upper class of citizens based on access to them, at least the price of entry is no more than a $95 bike on Kijiji.

Even cheaper if you attend the police auctions for unclaimed stolen bikes...

[atbw]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I haven't witnessed the new bikeways in person, so I'm looking forward to seeing how they work for people. Still not enough to motivate me back onto the saddle, but lets see what happens.



I'm a little curious where you got your $10,000 per year figure, as my costs of operation are much, much lower than that. But then I don't waste money on having the newest, latest, greatest vehicles as the depreciation that you pay for (in either purchasing or leasing) is like throwing money into the fireplace to heat your house - not a good idea.

They're not as secure as an AT trail, but going through midmorning on a Thursday, the only traffic I saw was other cyclists. Quiet neighbourhood, tree-lined streets, it was lovely. On the other end of the spectrum, I passed a pair cycling on Barrington St. North at 8:30 in 4 lanes of mixed traffic...that, you could not pay me to do. In other news, the work along there seems to be coming along, sidewalk on the West side of the street is a vast improvement already.

The $10,000 figure does include depreciation, so you wouldn't always see that reflected in the bank. That said, I've spent about $4,000 so far this year along between gas, tolls, repairs, registration, inspections and tires on a 2007 Honda Civic. I usually drive 25-50km per day for work with monthly out-of-province travel.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by atbw

They're not as secure as an AT trail, but going through midmorning on a Thursday, the only traffic I saw was other cyclists. Quiet neighbourhood, tree-lined streets, it was lovely. On the other end of the spectrum, I passed a pair cycling on Barrington St. North at 8:30 in 4 lanes of mixed traffic...that, you could not pay me to do. In other news, the work along there seems to be coming along, sidewalk on the West side of the street is a vast improvement already.

The $10,000 figure does include depreciation, so you wouldn't always see that reflected in the bank. That said, I've spent about $4,000 so far this year along between gas, tolls, repairs, registration, inspections and tires on a 2007 Honda Civic. I usually drive 25-50km per day for work with monthly out-of-province travel.

Thanks for the info. The bikeways seem like the best compromise out there, in theory anyway. Eventually you will have to cross busy thoroughfares, though.

I have a 12-year old vehicle, a 13-year old vehicle, and a 22-year old vehicle, and haven't had to spend much on them at all, but I do my own repairs and maintenance, so basically my costs are parts and the unavoidable fuel, registration, and insurance. I also apply rust protection to all of them, so that I will get many more years out of these cars and have to do less corrosion-related repairs than the average driver who doesn't give their car the same level of care - this lowers the per-year costs immensely.

The thing about repair costs and tires is that they can be expensive one-time costs, but if you are wanting to evaluate on a cost-per-year basis, you have to amortize the costs over the years used. For example, you can spend $500 on a set of tires, but you can reasonably expect 4 or 5 years out of a set, based on your mileage accumulation, so those tires are now $100/year.

There are also other ways of saving money that you can utilize to bring costs down, like that $500 set of tires could probably be purchased on kijiji, slightly worn, for $200. Larger parts can be purchased from a salvage yard for about half the cost of new, and typically will have sub-assemblies attached that can be used or removed and put aside in case you need them in the future. Etc. etc.

[atbw]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks for the info. The bikeways seem like the best compromise out there, in theory anyway. Eventually you will have to cross busy thoroughfares, though.

I have a 12-year old vehicle, a 13-year old vehicle, and a 22-year old vehicle, and haven't had to spend much on them at all, but I do my own repairs and maintenance, so basically my costs are parts and the unavoidable fuel, registration, and insurance. I also apply rust protection to all of them, so that I will get many more years out of these cars and have to do less corrosion-related repairs than the average driver who doesn't give their car the same level of care - this lowers the per-year costs immensely.

The thing about repair costs and tires is that they can be expensive one-time costs, but if you are wanting to evaluate on a cost-per-year basis, you have to amortize the costs over the years used. For example, you can spend $500 on a set of tires, but you can reasonably expect 4 or 5 years out of a set, based on your mileage accumulation, so those tires are now $100/year.

There are also other ways of saving money that you can utilize to bring costs down, like that $500 set of tires could probably be purchased on kijiji, slightly worn, for $200. Larger parts can be purchased from a salvage yard for about half the cost of new, and typically will have sub-assemblies attached that can be used or removed and put aside in case you need them in the future. Etc. etc.

All good points. I also get to claim a lot on the car come tax season, as it's 90% used for work. In any case, my $300 bike only costs me an extra egg at breakfast here and a handful of nuts there.

Back to the bikeways, the thoroughfares are tricky - Vernon at Coburg is iffy especially with the construction. However at Quinpool its signalized.

Something I saw a LOT of in Korea, which I think would be nice, was marked bike lanes at crosswalks for AT paths. Bikes obeyed traffic signals, but got to ride through the intersection. I think this could be a good solution for a few crosswalks here, or when AT paths arrive at intersections.

[j.graham]

I wish the 1% figure would stop being thrown around as the number of cyclists in Halifax. The census data is not representative of how many people would be using cycling infrastructure for a few reasons.

1. Cycling infrastructure leads to more cycling
2. Commuting is far from the only time people use their bicycles
3. I imagine it's missing a large portion of people "commuting" to the schools in the city

[Keith P.]

So if we spend lots of money on cycling infrastructure and the number goes up to 2%, is that a worthwhile investment?

Trying to project how many "would-be" cyclists there may be at soem future point is always going to be speculative, and I am glad to see a groundswell of support for spending this money on other priorities such as accessibility.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

So if we spend lots of money on cycling infrastructure and the number goes up to 2%, is that a worthwhile investment?

Trying to project how many "would-be" cyclists there may be at soem future point is always going to be speculative, and I am glad to see a groundswell of support for spending this money on other priorities such as accessibility.

AGAIN, Keith, 1% is the percentage of commuters citywide who bike to work. That doesn’t include the larger percentage of students cycling to school, not does it include those who cycle for transportation, but not specifically to commute to work. The number does not represent everyone who bikes, it’s everyone who bikes for one particular purpose. Hardly representative.

And, again, the commuting mode share in the neighbourhoods where these will be implemented is far higher than 1%—approaching 10% in some places.

Surveys also show lots of room for growth, as does the experience of other cities where ridership blew up recently after bike lanes were installed, including Calgary and Toronto.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

AGAIN, Keith, 1% is the percentage of commuters citywide who bike to work. That doesn’t include the larger percentage of students cycling to school, not does it include those who cycle for transportation, but not specifically to commute to work. The number does not represent everyone who bikes, it’s everyone who bikes for one particular purpose. Hardly representative.

And, again, the commuting mode share in the neighbourhoods where these will be implemented is far higher than 1%—approaching 10% in some places.

Surveys also show lots of room for growth, as does the experience of other cities where ridership blew up recently after bike lanes were installed, including Calgary and Toronto.

Sorry, but I simply do not believe those numbers. 10%? Not a chance. Not even on a sunny but mild day with ideal conditions while schools are still in session. What percentage of the population even owns a functioning bicycle that would be suitable for such use? I imagine even less than that. But even if it was 20% or 30% that means a majority or nearly so would be choosing that mode to use and as we know most bikes spend their lives hanging on the garage wall. These strike me as HCC-quality "stats" designed to support a predetermined agenda and nothing more.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Sorry, but I simply do not believe those numbers. 10%? Not a chance. Not even on a sunny but mild day with ideal conditions while schools are still in session. What percentage of the population even owns a functioning bicycle that would be suitable for such use? I imagine even less than that. But even if it was 20% or 30% that means a majority or nearly so would be choosing that mode to use and as we know most bikes spend their lives hanging on the garage wall. These strike me as HCC-quality "stats" designed to support a predetermined agenda and nothing more.

I suspect these stats would envelop anybody who rides a bike regularly or semi-regularly, but not what you would expect to see on the roads at any one time, at least not yet. Not unlike automobiles, as most spend the majority of time parked - if every car in the city were on the road at one time, there would be major gridlock.

I think, if there were proper infrastructure in place you would see more casual riders on the road, especially in weather conducive to pleasurable riding (i.e. not too hot, not too cold, and not raining or snowing)...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think, if there were proper infrastructure in place you would see more casual riders on the road, especially in weather conducive to pleasurable riding (i.e. not too hot, not too cold, and not raining or snowing)...

So, in other words, given Maritime weather, about 5% of the time.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

So, in other words, given Maritime weather, about 5% of the time.

Maybe a little more than that...

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Sorry, but I simply do not believe those numbers. 10%? Not a chance. Not even on a sunny but mild day with ideal conditions while schools are still in session. What percentage of the population even owns a functioning bicycle that would be suitable for such use? I imagine even less than that. But even if it was 20% or 30% that means a majority or nearly so would be choosing that mode to use and as we know most bikes spend their lives hanging on the garage wall. These strike me as HCC-quality "stats" designed to support a predetermined agenda and nothing more.

That's Statistics Canada data. If we can't trust StatsCan as impartial data source, there's not really any point in having a conversation.

It's just possible--just possible--that your perception of the popularity of biking and bicycle ownership isn't accurate.

[j.graham]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

So if we spend lots of money on cycling infrastructure and the number goes up to 2%, is that a worthwhile investment?

Trying to project how many "would-be" cyclists there may be at soem future point is always going to be speculative, and I am glad to see a groundswell of support for spending this money on other priorities such as accessibility.

Did you ignore #2 and 3 in my post? There are absolutely more than 1% of people in Halifax who use bicycles on a regular basic. Thinking otherwise is just ignorant.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by j.graham

Did you ignore #2 and 3 in my post? There are absolutely more than 1% of people in Halifax who use bicycles on a regular basic. Thinking otherwise is just ignorant.

I read elsewhere that its 1.6 %. Big whoop. My Brother is a Harvard Educated, Mass General trained, Trauma Anesthesiologist that works at the QE II health complex. The Liberal government had his Salary reduced by $80,000 a number of years ago. Guess where I think the unspent 4-7 Million for Bikes should go. Doctors BTW don't bitch near as much as the entitled World saver Bike lobby.

[j.graham]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

I read elsewhere that its 1.6 %. Big whoop. My Brother is a Harvard Educated, Mass General trained, Trauma Anesthesiologist that works at the QE II health complex. The Liberal government had his Salary reduced by $80,000 a number of years ago. Guess where I think the unspent 4-7 Million for Bikes should go. Doctors BTW don't bitch near as much as the entitled World saver Bike lobby.

First of all, I'm not against paying doctors well. Especially in Atlantic provinces and remote areas where it's difficult to keep them. I don't think a one-time commitment of $4.25 million is going to solve that (from the municipality, no less).

26.8% of Nova Scotians cycled in 2013/2014. I'd wager that the figure is higher in the HRM than the province in general. I realise that the StatsCan survey asked if they cycled in the last 12 months, so for many they may have only cycled once. But it means a quarter of the population at least has access to a bicycle, and giving them some decent infrastructure will convince them to get out more often.

I don't want to come off as entitled or as someone who thinks bike lanes are going to solve all of the problems in Halifax. I just genuinely think cycling infrastructure is a good investment for this city, and I think the cost is completely reasonable.

[atbw]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

That's Statistics Canada data. If we can't trust StatsCan as impartial data source, there's not really any point in having a conversation.

I stopped replying once I realized he doesn't actually defend his points and just moved on to another debunked argument, personal anecdote or unfounded assumption.

As for an actual update to this thread, the sidewalk along Barrington St. North is looking done. Crew were laying rebar for the harbourside curb this evening, and looked like they're going to be milling the pave as well. This is going to be a great stretch of infrastructure.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

That's Statistics Canada data. If we can't trust StatsCan as impartial data source, there's not really any point in having a conversation.

It's just possible--just possible--that your perception of the popularity of biking and bicycle ownership isn't accurate.

YOU were the one trumpeting 10% as the number who would be commuting by bicycle, not StatsCan. YOU are the one whose numbers I do not believe. If StatsCan identifies that someone takes their bike off the wall on a summer Sunday afternoon to ride to the ice cream stand, I believe them. I do not believe the commuter numbers cycling activists toss around.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

YOU were the one trumpeting 10% as the number who would be commuting by bicycle, not StatsCan. YOU are the one whose numbers I do not believe. If StatsCan identifies that someone takes their bike off the wall on a summer Sunday afternoon to ride to the ice cream stand, I believe them. I do not believe the commuter numbers cycling activists toss around.

Peninsula census tracts see 4 - 9% people who identify bicycle as their main commuter choice (varies by tract). That's according to StatsCan. I'm not going to go dig up the census data, but I think it was linked to earlier in the thread.

[Summerville]

Over the past few weeks, while travelling out west, I watched this thread evolve. I should mention that I am one of the "Deplorables". I've been cycling to work downtown for the last 15 years. I've been commuting by bike for over 20 years.

I have been run of the road by inattentive drivers twice, and run off the road by a driver on purpose because they didn't like the fact that I was passing them in a traffic jam.

Anecdotally, my downtown office of 99 people has 8 cyclists. I wonder if any one else that works downtown can say how many people bike to work?

I should also note that of my co-workers, perhaps less than 50% drive their own car to work. Parking is expensive. Most walk, take the bus, bike or carpool.

E-scooters and e-bikes have just taken off in Calgary. They are everywhere and that city is struggling to keep up. In fact, they also just arrived in Halifax...its probably the reason why I decided to dig this conversation up again. sorry:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...regulated-grey-zone-in-halifax-1.5260343

My issue with the critics is that their position seems to fall back on dated observations. E-scooters for example,...they fall into a legal grey area. No one expected them. E-bikes will do the same. They will remove the barriers to cycling that the hills in this city create.

The critics on this thread would suggest that we should outlaw everything but cars, buses and pedestrians.

The reality is that the city must unfortunately use public funds to accommodate all of the ways the citizens will travel today and in the future. Its not a may, its a must. People are going to choose how they commute. The city must cater to the needs of its citizens.

It's interesting that "Mattwhitman2020" seems to be using bike lanes as an attempt at wedge politics...the 1%? Really? We should call it for what it is....its his election strategy.