Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Urbanmetro

I'm not saying never build rail transit to Langley. Maybe in 30 years when the ridership and density make sense. 3.2 billion would be better spent servicing the already poorly serviced dense areas of metro Vancouver. Something else but considered us the increased bus service required to get people onto the train.

Another note, Langley will always be the outskirts of the metro. Density needs to be planned. Metro is not the way to push density. This will just cause speculation in land markets in the valley.

North America is a car dependant society. Especially so when living in the suburbs. Those that chose to live in Langley and work in Vancouver or Burnaby, 9/10 commute by car and always will.

Maybe Leipzig wasn't the best comparison, however, it's the principles that need to be looked at. Most decent European cities have very good transit in the city proper with less and less in the metro. Even massive cities like Paris, Moscow and Istanbul don't have a metro line that runs to or through farmland.

FYI, 140th and Fraser is basically already fully developed in a 500m radius and there's little population. That station will be like lake city way in Burnaby.

Well, the only parts of the South of Fraser region with an actual density plan are Whalley (downtown) and Guildford; one's already covered by trains, and the other won't be at all. So if Fleetwood and Langley won't make sense for thirty years, Newton won't either.
It's a chicken or egg situation: rapid transit begets density begets rapid transit. Can't have one without the other. Besides, as mentioned, the SkyTrain plan does not exist in a vacuum, but will be accompanied by increased service hours on most bus routes.

You can blame the ALR, the Robert Moses School of city planning, and 50's local politics for Langley City... at the end of that blame game, LC's still going to be there, they're not going to be much further than most North American/Asian suburbs, and they'll still try to urbanize. The only question is whether or not we give them a SkyTrain, or watch more density turn into more drivers. If you're willing to wade through 5+ years' worth of forum comments, you'll find that a lot more Langley drivers than you think ARE willing to switch to rapid transit, so long as it's actually superior to cars and buses.

140th as a whole can still densify more (King George is, right now), but I see your point - Green Timbers is in the way of the station. I'll just add that KGB/92nd would have the same problem. Not every station can be a big ticket item.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The above is exactly true which is why very few cities in the world build Metros out to the far flung suburbs. yes some Asian cities have it but that have densities quadrule Vancouver's and have individual suburbs bigger than Metro Vancouver.

Cities instead build suburban rail systems which are basically commuter rail systems that run all day each-way. This is what Toronto is doing with it's 200km RER system. It will serve vastly more people and destinations than sinking all the money into one line, makes use of existing infrastructure and ROWs, and is cheaper and faster to build.

An Asian-sized suburb can grow into an Asian-sized train line, but it won't shrink to fit a European-sized one. Unless you can convince all the outlying parts of Surrey and North Delta to pack up and move to the interurban?

Future is correct; the funding required to make an RER/S-Bahn to Chilliwack workable would cost as much as a SkyTrain to Langley, and it'd get less ridership. Might as well build the SkyTrain.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Urbanmetro

I'm not saying never build rail transit to Langley. Maybe in 30 years when the ridership and density make sense. 3.2 billion would be better spent servicing the already poorly serviced dense areas of metro Vancouver. Something else but considered us the increased bus service required to get people onto the train.

Another note, Langley will always be the outskirts of the metro. Density needs to be planned. Metro is not the way to push density. This will just cause speculation in land markets in the valley.

North America is a car dependant society. Especially so when living in the suburbs. Those that chose to live in Langley and work in Vancouver or Burnaby, 9/10 commute by car and always will.

Maybe Leipzig wasn't the best comparison, however, it's the principles that need to be looked at. Most decent European cities have very good transit in the city proper with less and less in the metro. Even massive cities like Paris, Moscow and Istanbul don't have a metro line that runs to or through farmland.

FYI, 140th and Fraser is basically already fully developed in a 500m radius and there's little population. That station will be like lake city way in Burnaby.

Do you think the Evergreen Line should have been built? The reason I ask is that the case for Skytrain to Langley is as good (if not slightly better) than building the Evergreen Line.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

An Asian-sized suburb can grow into an Asian-sized train line, but it won't shrink to fit a European-sized one. Unless you can convince all the outlying parts of Surrey and North Delta to pack up and move to the interurban?

Future is correct; the funding required to make an RER/S-Bahn to Chilliwack workable would cost as much as a SkyTrain to Langley, and it'd get less ridership. Might as well build the SkyTrain.

May as well just keep extending the Skytrain all the way to Hope, but not send all the trains terminus-to-terminus. I know it's rather silly, but the larger the system is (as in amount of people it can serve) the less reason people would have to drive the entire distance. If it serves all the city-centers within the lower mainland, eventually there would be no reason to own a private car. Transit or ride sharing fills in the last mile.

In practice, the business case would be better for extending the Skytrain to the ferries and the border crossings if an equal transit system was on the other side of the terminus.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by Kisai

May as well just keep extending the Skytrain all the way to Hope, but not send all the trains terminus-to-terminus. I know it's rather silly, but the larger the system is (as in amount of people it can serve) the less reason people would have to drive the entire distance. If it serves all the city-centers within the lower mainland, eventually there would be no reason to own a private car. Transit or ride sharing fills in the last mile.

In practice, the business case would be better for extending the Skytrain to the ferries and the border crossings if an equal transit system was on the other side of the terminus.

At the risk of straying into the Transit Fantasies thread, my long-term rapid transit dream for the region would be the following:

-an extension of the Millennium Line to UBC via the Jericho Lands with a terminus in Westbook Village.
-an extension of the Canada Line north across Burrard Inlet and up Lonsdale to a terminus by the highway (for hub-and-spoke local service and nexus for express highway coach service to Horseshoe Bay and Squamish).
-an extension of the Canada Line south to Ladner, at grade (as much as possible) to the Tswwassen First Nations/Tswwassen Mills and along the causeway to a terminus at the Ferry Terminal.
-an extension east of the Expo Line tunneled under Hasting Street to Burnaby Mountain (where it would connect with a second Gondola Rapid Transit line to SFU) and then continue elevated along Barnet Hwy to a terminus at Moody Station (tying in with the Evergreen Line and WestCoast Express).
-an extension of the Expo Line east from King George in Surrey to the City of Langley, and then north up 200, across the Golden Ears Bridge (it was designed for rapid transit, after all), through Pitt Meadows and then west up Hwy 7 to link into the Evergreen Line at Coquitlam Central Station in Coquitlam.
-a new SkyTrain line starting in Langley at 200 and Hwy 1 (tied into the Expo Line extension mentioned above) that would run north on 200 to 96, split off and head west on 96 to the Golden Ears Connector at Golden Ears Way, west along the Golden Ears Connector to 104th, west on 104th to Guildford Town Centre, tunneled under 104 from Guildford Town Centre to City Parkway/Surrey City Centre with a major tie-in to Surrey Central station, south (still tunneled) to King George Blvd and then transitioning to elevated by 96th Ave, south (elevated) to Newton Town Centre, and then elevated west along 72 to Hwy 91, north along 91 to the SFPR/Hwy 17 then west to Progress Way with a swing through the Tilbury Industrial Park before returning to SFPR/Hwy 17 to a terminus/tie in with the Canada Line in Ladner.

[Urbanmetro]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

At the risk of straying into the Transit Fantasies thread, my long-term rapid transit dream for the region would be the following:

-an extension of the Millennium Line to UBC via the Jericho Lands with a terminus in Westbook Village.
-an extension of the Canada Line north across Burrard Inlet and up Lonsdale to a terminus by the highway (for hub-and-spoke local service and nexus for express highway coach service to Horseshoe Bay and Squamish).
-an extension of the Canada Line south to Ladner, at grade (as much as possible) to the Tswwassen First Nations/Tswwassen Mills and along the causeway to a terminus at the Ferry Terminal.
-an extension east of the Expo Line tunneled under Hasting Street to Burnaby Mountain (where it would connect with a second Gondola Rapid Transit line to SFU) and then continue elevated along Barnet Hwy to a terminus at Moody Station (tying in with the Evergreen Line and WestCoast Express).
-an extension of the Expo Line east from King George in Surrey to the City of Langley, and then north up 200, across the Golden Ears Bridge (it was designed for rapid transit, after all), through Pitt Meadows and then west up Hwy 7 to link into the Evergreen Line at Coquitlam Central Station in Coquitlam.
-a new SkyTrain line starting in Langley at 200 and Hwy 1 (tied into the Expo Line extension mentioned above) that would run north on 200 to 96, split off and head west on 96 to the Golden Ears Connector at Golden Ears Way, west along the Golden Ears Connector to 104th, west on 104th to Guildford Town Centre, tunneled under 104 from Guildford Town Centre to City Parkway/Surrey City Centre with a major tie-in to Surrey Central station, south (still tunneled) to King George Blvd and then transitioning to elevated by 96th Ave, south (elevated) to Newton Town Centre, and then elevated west along 72 to Hwy 91, north along 91 to the SFPR/Hwy 17 then west to Progress Way with a swing through the Tilbury Industrial Park before returning to SFPR/Hwy 17 to a terminus/tie in with the Canada Line in Ladner.

That's a great long term vision taking us to 2119 😂.
The key is to prioritize lines. Is it right to say Surrey/Langley expo extension is the most crucial at this time in metro Vancouver's development?
If anything,why shouldn't North/west Vancouver get tied into the network?
Start in Lolo 3rd St, run west to park Royal, bridge to Stanley park, the run west along Hastings. It would have to be done in two or three phases, but it would connect so many people to an otherwise difficult place to go to as a tourist or resident using transit.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Urbanmetro

The key is to prioritize lines. Is it right to say Surrey/Langley expo extension is the most crucial at this time in metro Vancouver's development?
If anything,why shouldn't North/west Vancouver get tied into the network?

SoF is growing faster than anywhere else in the region vs the North Shore's population has dropped - so yes I'd say SoF should be higher priority.

Then you have to consider more practical things. Extending the Expo Line above ground in Surrey will be fairly straightforward, with the ALR being more difficult due to the need for pilings. The North Shore on the other hand needs some kind of water crossing (location and format currently undecided) and tunnels - that's going to cost $$$$$.

Then throw in West Van having a snit over the B-Line - to say that looks bad is an understatement. Not much is going to happen for the North Shore until it gets things sorted out.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Urbanmetro

If anything,why shouldn't North/west Vancouver get tied into the network? Start in Lolo 3rd St, run west to park Royal, bridge to Stanley park, the run west along Hastings. It would have to be done in two or three phases, but it would connect so many people to an otherwise difficult place to go to as a tourist or resident using transit.

On a cost per customer basis, I'd suggest that SoF will be remain more practical for quite some time to come. As a North Shore resident, I'd certainly agree that we have significant traffic issues and that transit is hindered by the lack of high-capacity east-west roads. However, the combination of the rugged terrain and an entrenched resistance to high-density development suggest that the population is not going to increase anywhere near to what SoF will experience.

Originally Posted by Sheba

SoF is growing faster than anywhere else in the region vs the North Shore's population has dropped - so yes I'd say SoF should be higher priority. Then you have to consider more practical things. Extending the Expo Line above ground in Surrey will be fairly straightforward, with the ALR being more difficult due to the need for pilings. The North Shore on the other hand needs some kind of water crossing (location and format currently undecided) and tunnels - that's going to cost $$$$$. Then throw in West Van having a snit over the B-Line - to say that looks bad is an understatement. Not much is going to happen for the North Shore until it gets things sorted out.

I think that the B-Line ("RapidBus R2") will be beneficial, and perhaps the first taste of how faster, higher-capacity transit would benefit residents and visitors. That being said, I'd suggest that we're a long, long way from needing SkyTrain-level transit, as nice as that would be. The only local route that could currently support a subway is the Marine Drive-3rd Street-Main Street route, and even then there would be considerable resistance to the increased density that such a line would bring. As for crossing the inlet, the SeaBus route is the best location for rapid transit to downtown, but the worst for construction purposes. The further out you cross, east or west, the more time it takes to get downtown and you're already up against a relatively short ferry ride. Connecting to the SkyTrain system via First or Second Narrows does bring benefits, but again you're looking at an enormous cost to cross the inlet. Dedicated bus lanes on the Second Narrows (one each way at least during the daytime) and on the Lions Gate Bridge (one-way reversible) would be horrific for car traffic but would bring you much of the benefit of rapid transit at a fraction of the cost. I'd be quite interested to know what the cost would be like to build SkyTrain-capable transit bridges or tunnels at the First and Second Narrows and then use them for multiple RapidBus routes until demand is sufficient for SkyTrain.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Yeah, even though I'd directly benefit from SkyTrain to the North Shore, the numbers don't work. Fleetwood or Cloverdale alone are as large as the entire Dunderave-Phibbs corridor - not worth the cost of a Burrard Inlet tunnel just yet.

[ssiguy]

I could see a NS line but only if it's part of general bridge/tunnel infrastructure. I would place a Hastings Street tunnel above the priority list than even a complete extension to UBC. M-Line should go to Dunbar/Alma but after that it's actually a fairly quick moving corridor via the BLine. Hastings on the other hand is densely populated, very congested, and carries 8 regular routes, and serves a lower income {and hence more transit dependent} area.

[Migrant_Coconut]

95 ridership: 22,100/day
99 ridership: 56,900/day

Very little point in having a partly-finished SkyTrain and a "stub" B-Line when instead one can build the SkyTrain all the way and free up those resources for the 95 or another B-Line somewhere else. Not to mention the traffic bottleneck at 10th/Alma/Broadway that's going to make it very difficult to turn an articulated bus around.

[SpongeG]

Former B.C. premier calls Surrey SkyTrain extension ‘crazy’

Delta Optimist
By Sandor Gyarmati - July 31, 2019

It’s simply crazy.

Delta resident and former B.C. premier Bill Vander Zalm, a spokesperson for the South Fraser Community Rail Society, is saying that about the Metro Vancouver mayors’ decision last week to move forward with a SkyTrain extension in Surrey, while a much more cost-effective solution is being ignored.

...

Vander Zalm’s group is instead advocating re-activating an old inter-urban rail line for passenger traffic, a 99-kilometre corridor that would run all the way from the Pattullo Bridge to Chilliwack.

The proposed system would use hydrogen rail, a propulsion system that has a fuel cell device, converting the chemical energy contained within the hydrogen in order to generate electricity.

“To run SkyTrain from Surrey Centre to Fleetwood is absolutely ridiculous. It’s crazy and makes no sense. It must be politics,” said Vander Zalm.

“A good part of it will go through Green Timbers and people don’t realize there’s no customers, no traffic in Green Timbers, there’s trees, and they’re going to cut a swath through there to put a SkyTrain there to Fleetwood where there’s not too much development anyway. For that kind of money they can run on the old B.C. Electric track all the way from the Pattullo Bridge SkyTrain, through North Delta, through Kennedy to Newton, and off to Cloverdale and Langley, and still have enough left over to run a tram on the ground from Guildford to Newton if that’s what they want to do,” he added.

...

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/2019/...er-zalm-surrey-skytrain-extension-crazy/

[ilikeredheads]

and hydrogen trains aren't crazy, right? LOL

this guy is literally Lyle Lanley

[ssiguy]

Whether you agree with Valley suburban rail or not, there is nothing "crazy" about hydrogen {or battery -powered} trains at all. They are used in Germany and are being deployed in France, Austria, and Britain with other countries looking into them as well. There is NOTHING that Vancouver can teach the Germans, French, or British about rail or urban transport. Toronto is seriously considering hydrogen for it's 260 KM electrified RER system where Union station will be seeing trains arrive in/depart every 30 seconds.

[ilikeredheads]

hydrogen trains, or any vehicles for the matter, is "crazy" in the sense that the running cost is too high to justify it, and it's the biggest reason why it hasn't taken off yet. The one in Germany is mostly a proof of concept. The infrastructure is just not mature enough yet.

Just ask Whistler how it went with their much hyped hydrogen buses.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Bill Vander Zalm, corrupt and for himself at every turn. who gives a crap what he thinks. good ol' willy wooden 2 shoes

[nname]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

There is NOTHING that Vancouver can teach the Germans, French, or British about rail or urban transport.

TransLink hosts international delegations every year. Just a quick google search:

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/translink-international-delegations

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Former B.C. premier calls Surrey SkyTrain extension ‘crazy’

Delta Optimist
By Sandor Gyarmati - July 31, 2019

It’s simply crazy.

Delta resident and former B.C. premier Bill Vander Zalm, a spokesperson for the South Fraser Community Rail Society, is saying that about the Metro Vancouver mayors’ decision last week to move forward with a SkyTrain extension in Surrey, while a much more cost-effective solution is being ignored.

...

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/2019/...er-zalm-surrey-skytrain-extension-crazy/

Nobody should give Zalm the time of day. We listened to him about the HST and now we're paying more for it. Never again.

The Hydrogen train is a stupid idea and unfit for any transportation project in BC, let alone Canada. The only place where Hydrogen might be practical is where an electric train has to run on non-electrified tracks for some reason where electrification would be impossible due to the environment, but the stations have cheap access to electricity and uncontaminated water/natural gas, like if we had a train between Alaska/Yukon and BC. Which we do not, and unlikely never will. A fully electrified system doesn't need a Hydrogen train, and a railway that runs freight is not going to switch to Hydrogen any time soon since there's zero existing infrastructure for fueling it. You're not going to sit there and charge a train from local drinking water and energy sources. That's where Hydrogen comes from when it doesn't come from Natural gas.

Hence it's a stupid idea unless there's major investment in infrastructure, any that will not be a freight ROW running passenger trains.

Remember Hydrogen and Natural gas buses? Where did they go? The infrastructure didn't materialize. Remember the "hydrogen highway"? Infrastructure didn't materialize. This will not materialize either.

The fact that there is no commercial hydrogen trains running yet, means it's even more proprietary than the Skytrain, and that is funny coming from the people who hate the Skytrain for that reason. Prototypes of hydrogen trains have been made ever since 2002, and there is only one now, and only one customer of Coradia iLint.

Anyway, I digress, I think RFTV and the three other Delta residents who push these ideas and seemingly all know each other and have decided they are just going to troll the media until someone gives them TV time.

[Urbanmetro]

If the hastings line isn't the best fit right now, a line to newton/Scott road is more viable than to Langley.

The line could run from King George, run through the power lines to surrey memorial hospital at 96 ave, a stop at 88 ave, 80 ave and 72nd then run along 72nd to KPU and Scott road. Another stop at 80 ave, 88 ave and 96 ave and run back to king George or go through the cut and join up by Scott road station. That way expo can have two different terminus, one going to Langley and the other down king George to Scott road. That loop will also provide a bypass to some of the Langley passenger traffic and allow for a surrey centric line, just how the Canada line is Vancouver centric.

These are already two of the busiest bus routes in metro Vancouver and the future two R lines in surrey,. This makes the most sense...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Heh, it seems you've got a lot more lurking to do! A Newton extension may cost slightly less than a Langley extension, but it has less ridership potential than the SkyTrain/BRT combo; again, most of Surrey's current growth appears to be centered around Whalley/Guildford, which is already covered (or wouldn't be) by either route.

And creating a loop seems as inadvisable as the original Millennium Line. That thing was practically useless until the Evergreen came along.

No, BRT on 120th and KGB down to White Rock should suffice for the next decade or two - then it'll be time for SkyTrain from Newton to Guildford, with potential for extensions either way.