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  #3381  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 12:39 AM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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On Thursday (July 25) the LA Clippers released renderings of the new arena they are going to be building. No cost mentioned but it will be privately financed. Steve Ballmer is worth over $50 billion so it'll be a drop in the bucket for him. The reason I'm mentioning this is to show how beautiful the building will look. After seeing this Calgary needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with something a million times more appealing than what they're proposing.

The project is expected to create an estimated 10,000 construction jobs and more than 1,500 permanent jobs, with local hire components in place to fill 30% of available construction jobs with local labor and 35% of the available arena operation jobs with local residents. When completed, the complex will generate an estimated $268 million in economic activity for Inglewood annually, and more than $190 million in new tax revenue from 2020-2045. That revenue will help support vital city services such as schools, parks, libraries and police and fire stations.

Source: https://www.nba.com/clippers/la-clip...nter-inglewood








Last edited by Corndogger; Jul 29, 2019 at 4:45 AM.
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  #3382  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 1:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
O The reason I'm mentioning this is to show how beautiful the building will look. After seeing this Calgary needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with something a million times more appealing than what they're proposing.
The Clippers arena is probably going to run hundreds of millions of dollars more than the Flames arena will, all of it private. Ballmer can afford to build what he wants, it's his money. It would be ridiculous for Calgary to try to build something that expensive with taxpayer dollars, and I doubt the Flames have deep enough pockets to do it as well. Plus, Ballmer is going to be in competition with several other venues in the LA area when concert tours come along, including the Forum just up the street, so he's going to be wanting to make this a much bigger showplace than a place like Calgary is going to need.
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  #3383  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 1:22 AM
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What about the Calgary Tower or the Bow?
I mentioned the world's tallest KFC bucket.

As for the Bow...I think you seriously overestimate how iconic it actually is. I personally have never thought much of it. I think it's too bulky on the skyline and there's nothing otherwise special about it other than a quasi-unique floor plate. That said, it's just another building on the Calgary skyline for the other %99.99 of the world. If you know something about the history of the building then maybe you think it's special but iconic? Only to a few skyscraper geeks like us excluding myself and a few others.
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  #3384  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 1:23 AM
khabibulin khabibulin is offline
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[QUOTE=Corndogger;8644020]On Thursday (July 25) the LA Clippers released renderings of the new arena they are going to be building. No cost mentioned but it will be privately financed. Steve Ballmer is worth over $50 billion so it'll be a drop in the bucket for him. The reason I'm mentioning this is to show how beautiful the building will look. After seeing this Calgary needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with something a million times more appealing than what they're proposing.

The project is expected to create an estimated 10,000 construction jobs and more than 1,500 permanent jobs, with local hire components in place to fill 30% of available construction jobs with local labor and 35% of the available arena operation jobs with local residents. When completed, the complex will generate an estimated $268 million in economic activity for Inglewood annually, and more than $190 million in new tax revenue from 2020-2045. That revenue will help support vital city services such as schools, parks, libraries and police and fire stations.

Why has no one else mentioned the hundreds if not thousands of jobs that a pro sports team brings to a city? Players, executives and team officials paying high taxes, maintenance staff, ushers, concession workers, local hotels and restaurant staff, local public transit workers getting overtime, even more pilots. And then all that income that they spend locally. Over the life of a sports facility that must equal a significant amount of money generated by a sports facility. No?
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  #3385  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 2:38 AM
ZeDgE ZeDgE is online now
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[QUOTE=khabibulin;8644055]
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
On Thursday (July 25) the LA Clippers released renderings of the new arena they are going to be building. No cost mentioned but it will be privately financed. Steve Ballmer is worth over $50 billion so it'll be a drop in the bucket for him. The reason I'm mentioning this is to show how beautiful the building will look. After seeing this Calgary needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with something a million times more appealing than what they're proposing.

The project is expected to create an estimated 10,000 construction jobs and more than 1,500 permanent jobs, with local hire components in place to fill 30% of available construction jobs with local labor and 35% of the available arena operation jobs with local residents. When completed, the complex will generate an estimated $268 million in economic activity for Inglewood annually, and more than $190 million in new tax revenue from 2020-2045. That revenue will help support vital city services such as schools, parks, libraries and police and fire stations.

Why has no one else mentioned the hundreds if not thousands of jobs that a pro sports team brings to a city? Players, executives and team officials paying high taxes, maintenance staff, ushers, concession workers, local hotels and restaurant staff, local public transit workers getting overtime, even more pilots. And then all that income that they spend locally. Over the life of a sports facility that must equal a significant amount of money generated by a sports facility. No?
Yea funny how this has not come up with regards to the Calgary project.. but used as a talking point in another.

Last edited by ZeDgE; Jul 29, 2019 at 4:11 AM.
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  #3386  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 4:01 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
On Thursday (July 25) the LA Clippers released renderings of the new arena they are going to be building. No cost mentioned but it will be privately financed. Steve Ballmer is worth over $50 billion so it'll be a drop in the bucket for him. The reason I'm mentioning this is to show how beautiful the building will look. After seeing this Calgary needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with something a million times more appealing than what they're proposing.

The project is expected to create an estimated 10,000 construction jobs and more than 1,500 permanent jobs, with local hire components in place to fill 30% of available construction jobs with local labor and 35% of the available arena operation jobs with local residents. When completed, the complex will generate an estimated $268 million in economic activity for Inglewood annually, and more than $190 million in new tax revenue from 2020-2045. That revenue will help support vital city services such as schools, parks, libraries and police and fire stations.

Source: https://www.nba.com/clippers/la-clip...nter-inglewood



[/IMG]



There is no design for the Calgary arena yet, and regardless that LA design does not cause a wow effect on me anymore than the conceptual rendering of a Calgary arena.
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  #3387  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 4:03 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by khabibulin View Post
Why has no one else mentioned the hundreds if not thousands of jobs that a pro sports team brings to a city? Players, executives and team officials paying high taxes, maintenance staff, ushers, concession workers, local hotels and restaurant staff, local public transit workers getting overtime, even more pilots. And then all that income that they spend locally. Over the life of a sports facility that must equal a significant amount of money generated by a sports facility. No?
It has been mentioned, but anyone who does is wrong. The benefits of what you say are not greater than the financial cost to the taxpayer, end of. That doesn't necessarily mean an arena isn't worth funding though.
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  #3388  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 4:54 AM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
There is no design for the Calgary arena yet, and regardless that LA design does not cause a wow effect on me anymore than the conceptual rendering of a Calgary arena.
If the Clippers arena doesn't wow you I doubt anything would. Hopefully ours will look a lot better than the rendering but I'm not holding my breath.
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  #3389  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 5:10 AM
khabibulin khabibulin is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
It has been mentioned, but anyone who does is wrong. The benefits of what you say are not greater than the financial cost to the taxpayer, end of. That doesn't necessarily mean an arena isn't worth funding though.
I never said that the benefits would be greater than the taxpayer portion of the cost. Just that it would be a significant amount. Even then, I'm not totally doubting that the benefits could, over the life of the building (30 years), cover the taxpayer costs. Plus having people employed is better than having them unemployed.
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  #3390  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 5:15 AM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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Originally Posted by khabibulin View Post
I never said that the benefits would be greater than the taxpayer portion of the cost. Just that it would be a significant amount. Even then, I'm not totally doubting that the benefits could, over the life of the building (30 years), cover the taxpayer costs. Plus having people employed is better than having them unemployed.
All very true. Some people try to make it sound like the cost to the City will be $275 million but that's not the case. With annual payments from the Flames plus other economic benefits this is probably a minor cost. If development in the area is successful they could easily make money over the long term.
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  #3391  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 11:36 AM
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Our priorities are so aloof right now.

For example, GM closes losing plant with a hundred or so employees in Oshawa and it gets national attention and a political response. Our sheltered banks continue to transfer thousands of highly educated jobs overseas while earning record profits. No one is even questioning why we continue to shelter them while they treat Canadians like shit.
Not trying to start anything political or get the thread off track, but reading your post, I thought of this. Don't let the title fool you, give it a watch. The part I think that relates to your post starts at about 1:00

Why Trump Won
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  #3392  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 1:37 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
All very true. Some people try to make it sound like the cost to the City will be $275 million but that's not the case. With annual payments from the Flames plus other economic benefits this is probably a minor cost. If development in the area is successful they could easily make money over the long term.
Unless the new arena attracts new investment from outside the city that would not have occurred had it not been built, then the 'increase' in taxes from the surrounding land is just shifting the tax base around the city. Even according to the cities own real figures, the project will lose 47 million.

Subsidising sports facilities does not make economic sense, that is what all the research shows. But if we place value on having an arena for its own sake, then maybe it is worth. Spend money, get thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khabibulin View Post
I never said that the benefits would be greater than the taxpayer portion of the cost. Just that it would be a significant amount. Even then, I'm not totally doubting that the benefits could, over the life of the building (30 years), cover the taxpayer costs. Plus having people employed is better than having them unemployed.
They won't make money on it. If they instead put that $290m in an investment fund, they could make a greater return over 25 years. Not saying that means we shouldn't build it, just that the economic argument is a lie.
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  #3393  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
On Thursday (July 25) the LA Clippers released renderings of the new arena they are going to be building. No cost mentioned but it will be privately financed. Steve Ballmer is worth over $50 billion so it'll be a drop in the bucket for him. The reason I'm mentioning this is to show how beautiful the building will look. After seeing this Calgary needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with something a million times more appealing than what they're proposing.
Why? Money does not necessarily equal a quality stadium. Just look at Rogers Place for an example; it's probably going to cost a fraction of this place as well, yet it's still one hell of an arena.

What is more important to me is the reports that Calgary is going to use the inverted bowl rather than the standard set-up. Done correctly, the new arena could be a trendsetter amongst large-scale arenas going forward. That is far more prestigious than having the nicest looking arena from the outside.
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  #3394  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 2:56 PM
Hackslack Hackslack is offline
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Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime View Post
What is more important to me is the reports that Calgary is going to use the inverted bowl rather than the standard set-up. Done correctly, the new arena could be a trendsetter amongst large-scale arenas going forward. That is far more prestigious than having the nicest looking arena from the outside.
Great call! I didn’t even think of this... would be really cool if the same design could be used for a future Stanpeders home, they could reduce capacity on a new stadium but with that sort of design I feel like it could amplify the atmosphere. Will be a great fan experience I hope
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  #3395  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 4:02 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Great call! I didn’t even think of this... would be really cool if the same design could be used for a future Stanpeders home, they could reduce capacity on a new stadium but with that sort of design I feel like it could amplify the atmosphere. Will be a great fan experience I hope
They still have to build a fieldhouse and the way this story twists and turns I wouldn't rule out a stadium/fieldhouse. I think the last news I had was that it wasn't going to happen but I won't hold my breath.

Last edited by elly63; Jul 29, 2019 at 4:44 PM.
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  #3396  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 6:48 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Unless the new arena attracts new investment from outside the city that would not have occurred had it not been built, then the 'increase' in taxes from the surrounding land is just shifting the tax base around the city. Even according to the cities own real figures, the project will lose 47 million.

Subsidising sports facilities does not make economic sense, that is what all the research shows. But if we place value on having an arena for its own sake, then maybe it is worth. Spend money, get thing.
Why does new investment have to come from outside of the city? That's not the way to look at this. It's the incremental increase in revenue to the city that matters. If Company X was going to build a hotel on the outskirts of Calgary and then decided to build it in the new entertainment district that would be a shift of the tax base but it would very likely also result in more tax revenue for the City. That's what matters. So does whether or not people are willing to spend more of their disposal income in this area.



They won't make money on it. If they instead put that $290m in an investment fund, they could make a greater return over 25 years. Not saying that means we shouldn't build it, just that the economic argument is a lie.[/QUOTE]
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  #3397  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 8:53 PM
Winnipegger Winnipegger is online now
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
Why does new investment have to come from outside of the city? That's not the way to look at this. It's the incremental increase in revenue to the city that matters. If Company X was going to build a hotel on the outskirts of Calgary and then decided to build it in the new entertainment district that would be a shift of the tax base but it would very likely also result in more tax revenue for the City. That's what matters. So does whether or not people are willing to spend more of their disposal income in this area.
I'm sorry but your counter argument makes no sense and milomilo is absolutely correct. Like most cities, Calgary derives most of it's revenue from property tax, which is based on the assessed value of a property. If a hotel chain was planning on building $100 million of hotel properties in Calgary, and because of Calgary's new arena, decided to build those near the area as opposed to some other neighborhood, there is no real gain in tax revenue for the City of Calgary; $100 million of investment nets the same property tax to the municipal government, regardless of where it goes within the city itself.

You acknowledged it yourself: it's just a shift of the location of the tax base, not its size. The only way the new arena would help the municipal government from a revenue standpoint is if it attracted external investment that would have otherwise not occurred, as correctly noted by milomilo. Whether or not that will occur is unknown at this time, but the economic literature surrounding the topic of sports teams tends to suggest that stadiums and professional sports teams don't have much of an impact, if any, on the larger economy.

Think of it another way, perhaps from a household example. Let's say the Calgary Flames make the playoffs and everyone in Calgary is excited, so everyone is out buying burgers, beers, jerseys, playoff tickets, bobble heads, and hats. Are the playoffs a good thing for Calgary's economy? The average person might say yes, but when you think it through a little more the positive effects become a little less clear. Unless the Calgary Flames making the playoffs somehow increased the average person's income on aggregate, people simply modified the timing or location of their consumption during the playoff season. Instead of buying a beer two weeks from now, perhaps you buy a beer at the restaurant while watching a playoff game. Instead of buying new shorts and a hat a month from now at the mall, you spent that money now to buy Flames jersey at a downtown sports store. Can you see where I'm going with this? Unless this "shock" to the economy raised income, your simply shifting the timing of consumer choices which, on aggregate, will have had no effect on the economy whatsoever in the long run.

The same thing applies to infrastructure and mega projects - unless the project itself is acting as a catalyst or attractant for private investment that would have not otherwise occurred if the project wasn't done, the effect on the economy is zero. To think otherwise can lead to falsely attributing economic growth to certain things (like mega projects) when that growth would have happened regardless of whether or not the mega project would have taken place.
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  #3398  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 9:50 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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I'm sorry but your counter argument makes no sense and milomilo is absolutely correct. Like most cities, Calgary derives most of it's revenue from property tax, which is based on the assessed value of a property. If a hotel chain was planning on building $100 million of hotel properties in Calgary, and because of Calgary's new arena, decided to build those near the area as opposed to some other neighborhood, there is no real gain in tax revenue for the City of Calgary; $100 million of investment nets the same property tax to the municipal government, regardless of where it goes within the city itself.
My point makes perfect sense and your use of the term "assessed value" proves it. An investment of $100 million does not equate to an assessed value of $100 million. The assessed value can go up or down because it's based on market value which is recalculated each year. If the entertainment district is successful the assessed value will go up and the city will likely derive more in property taxes because of it. I know there are other factors involved but what I said is how it works. The mistake you and Milo are making is that you are assuming the value of a property is the same no matter where it's located in the city.
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  #3399  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 9:52 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Winnipegger View Post
I'm sorry but your counter argument makes no sense and milomilo is absolutely correct. Like most cities, Calgary derives most of it's revenue from property tax, which is based on the assessed value of a property. If a hotel chain was planning on building $100 million of hotel properties in Calgary, and because of Calgary's new arena, decided to build those near the area as opposed to some other neighborhood, there is no real gain in tax revenue for the City of Calgary; $100 million of investment nets the same property tax to the municipal government, regardless of where it goes within the city itself.

You acknowledged it yourself: it's just a shift of the location of the tax base, not its size. The only way the new arena would help the municipal government from a revenue standpoint is if it attracted external investment that would have otherwise not occurred, as correctly noted by milomilo. Whether or not that will occur is unknown at this time, but the economic literature surrounding the topic of sports teams tends to suggest that stadiums and professional sports teams don't have much of an impact, if any, on the larger economy.

Think of it another way, perhaps from a household example. Let's say the Calgary Flames make the playoffs and everyone in Calgary is excited, so everyone is out buying burgers, beers, jerseys, playoff tickets, bobble heads, and hats. Are the playoffs a good thing for Calgary's economy? The average person might say yes, but when you think it through a little more the positive effects become a little less clear. Unless the Calgary Flames making the playoffs somehow increased the average person's income on aggregate, people simply modified the timing or location of their consumption during the playoff season. Instead of buying a beer two weeks from now, perhaps you buy a beer at the restaurant while watching a playoff game. Instead of buying new shorts and a hat a month from now at the mall, you spent that money now to buy Flames jersey at a downtown sports store. Can you see where I'm going with this? Unless this "shock" to the economy raised income, your simply shifting the timing of consumer choices which, on aggregate, will have had no effect on the economy whatsoever in the long run.

The same thing applies to infrastructure and mega projects - unless the project itself is acting as a catalyst or attractant for private investment that would have not otherwise occurred if the project wasn't done, the effect on the economy is zero. To think otherwise can lead to falsely attributing economic growth to certain things (like mega projects) when that growth would have happened regardless of whether or not the mega project would have taken place.
Thanks
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  #3400  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 10:32 PM
Corndogger Corndogger is offline
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Thanks
I forgot that this place tends to be an echo chamber. Neither one of you seems to understand how property taxes work.
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