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  #11281  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2019, 3:44 PM
sseguin sseguin is offline
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Posted this morning on O-Train Fans:

Confederation Line - Simulated Run from Blair to Tunney's Pasture
https://www.otrainfans.ca/behind-the-sce...lated-run-from-blair-to-tunney-s-pasture

I have included some telemetry of the run, as well as a moving positional system map (similar to the ones found on Montreal's Azur metro cars).

Enjoy.
     
     
  #11282  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2019, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sseguin View Post
Posted this morning on O-Train Fans:

Confederation Line - Simulated Run from Blair to Tunney's Pasture
https://www.otrainfans.ca/behind-the-sce...lated-run-from-blair-to-tunney-s-pasture

I have included some telemetry of the run, as well as a moving positional system map (similar to the ones found on Montreal's Azur metro cars).

Enjoy.
Very cool! Do you know if the trains are equipped with positional maps in the passenger cabs, like Montréal's?

I feel like they could increase the speeds along certain straight segments, Blair to Cyrville and Bayview to Tunney's in particular. I hope that post- Stage 2 trains reach 100 km/h, at least through the Greenbelt.
     
     
  #11283  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2019, 4:35 PM
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Are the dwell times on this particular simulation significant? I noticed that all line stations have 18 or 19 second dwell times, expect for Rideau (26). uOttawa, Rideau, Pimisi, Bayview and Tunney's were the only stations that seemed packed, the rest seem pretty empty (though Cyrville looked busy for what it is).

Maybe I'm overthinking.
     
     
  #11284  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2019, 4:35 PM
sseguin sseguin is offline
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I haven’t seen the inside of the actual trains so I can’t say 100% but from everything I’ve seen so far I don’t think they do.

Would have been neat. Doesn’t change much as it’s mostly a visual touch.

The dwell times are mostly 15-20. It is possible that there are some differences in speed in real life to the simulation. I put the speed to give people a better idea as it is usually really hard to tell in videos how fast something is moving. Keep in mind the passengers are just there for visual effect and I wouldn’t go by that to judge anything meaningful.

Definitely a big difference here in speed to the Ion train. Segregation and tunnel make a world of difference.

Also worth noting that Montreal Métro has the following speeds
Average speed
40 km/h (25 mph)
Top speed
72 km/h (45 mph)

I think our average is that that or higher and our top speed is higher as well at 78-80kph

Last edited by sseguin; Jul 23, 2019 at 4:47 PM.
     
     
  #11285  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2019, 4:44 PM
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Thanks Shane! Wasn't sure if they had a "rush-hour" simulation and "weekend" simulation. As for the positional maps, I guess it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to install considering the system will be changing significantly over the next 5+ years.
     
     
  #11286  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2019, 4:51 PM
sseguin sseguin is offline
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That’s a good point. There are multiple simulation scenarios, I’m honestly not sure which one they ran for me.

My request when doing the video was rather basic (I guess in retrospect) to do a run from Blair to Tunney’s Pasture with Station stops.
     
     
  #11287  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2019, 5:56 PM
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Not to open old wounds, but I feel it is fitting to post this article from 2006 considering where we are today, 13 years later. Note, the article is missing a few spaces. I guess the 2013 transfer to a new numeric system was a little off.

Quote:
Council kills light rail, blames federal government: Lack of guaranteed funding meant Ottawa had to hit 'reset button'

JAKE RUPERT, WITH FILES FROM PATRICK DARE AND ANJA KARADEGLIJA, THE OTTAWA CITIZEN 09.10.2013

Originally published December 15, 2006

OttawaCity Council killed the north-south light-rail project yesterday by a narrowvote, placing the blame squarely on the federal government.

The$880-million project was seven years in the making and approved once before.

It wasdesigned to service the south end of the city, where growth has been directed,and to be the first step in a light-rail system criss-crossing Ottawa.

But itdied by a vote of 13 to 11, with Mayor Larry O'Brien voting against it.

A majorityof councillors rejected the electric line from the University of Ottawa toBarrhaven, despite the guarantee from a group of companies chosen to build itthat they would sue the city if council didn't approve the line.

After thevote, officials from the companies, led by Siemens, had no comment, but in aletter this week they said if the project was cancelled, they would"pursue any and all legal actions available to us."

Mr.O'Brien and many of the councillors who voted against the project said the citywould work hard to limit any potential financial harm stemming from thedecision, and that estimates of hundreds of millions in damages are overblown.

"Let'snot all get to the sky-is- falling attitude and run around like Chicken Littles,"he said. "It's what it would have cost us to go ahead that I wasmeasuring. We had no choice but to hit the reset button."

He saidhis chief reason for voting against the project was the downtown portion of theproject, which would have run on city streets, made the project too slow,wouldn't help traffic congestion, and would hurt businesses in the area.

Mr.O'Brien said he will now appoint a task force to come up with a better masstransit plan for the city in the next six months.

"Wewill move forward very quickly to come up with solutions to north-southtransportation and address east-west needs," he said.

Theresolution that defeated the project said city council was terminating thesystem because it couldn't meet its financial obligations due to the federalgovernment's failure to come through with a $200-million commitment byyesterday's deadline.

Theprovincial and federal governments had agreed to contribute $200 million eachtoward the project.

Yesterday morning,the provincial commitment was in city officials' hands, but the federalcommitment didn't arrive despite repeated reassurances by the Treasury Boardpresident, Ottawa West-Nepean Conservative MP John Baird, that it would bethere regardless of what council did.

When askedwhy the city hadn't received the money, city manager Kent Kirkpatrick simplysaid: "I don't know."

However,Mr. Baird's spokesman, Patrick Robert, said the federal government's promise of$200 million for transit for Ottawa was there.

"Thatcommitment is still solid even today after this decision," said Mr.Robert.

Those whovoted against the line yesterday argued, though, that since the federalgovernment did not actually sign off on the project, it would not be aresponsible thing to vote for it.

CapitalCouncillor Clive Doucet, a longtime supporter of light rail, said cancellingthe project was "stupid" and "a city disaster."

He saidtaxpayers will now have to foot legal bills, getting nothing in return, andnorth-south road congestion will get worse as more and more people drivedowntown to work every day.

"It'smorally wrong, environmentally and socially wrong," he said.

"Itwill be a $300-million claim, half the price of the entire project, and we'llget nothing," he said. "This was a long and difficult process, andit's going to be a long, long time before I can get over it."

Gloucester-SouthgateCouncillor Diane Deans said the vote will create a "colossal financialproblem" for taxpayers and damage Ottawa's reputation in Canada and theworld. "It's an embarrassment, and I'm embarrassed to be part of it."

She alsonoted that the city has spent roughly $65 million getting the project going.

BayCouncillor Alex Cullen, who was against the plan because he feels it's too expensivefor what the city would be getting, said now the municipality has a chance toget a good light-rail system in Ottawa.

"Thedebate on this project ends today, but light rail in the city doesn't endtoday," he said. "We have the opportunity to go back and prove thevalue of a better project.

OrleansCouncillor Bob Monette said it was a shame $400 million in federal andprovincial money would be left on the table.

But Mr.O'Brien said he didn't think the federal and provincial financial commitmentshave been put in jeopardy because of the vote.

"Thatmoney is not at risk, in my perspective," he said.

CollegeCouncillor Rick Chiarelli, a lawyer who voted against the project, said thethreat of a lawsuit by Siemens is real, but the odds of it being successful andthe potential liability the city faces are grossly inflated.

"Idon't think the Siemens' case is nearly as strong as they think it is," hesaid. "It's not as simple as Siemens makes it out to be. Anybody can sue,but it doesn't mean they are going to win. I think the city has some strongarguments to make."

Chiefamong those, he said, was the fact that the federal money was not in place.

In July,city council approved the project and awarded the contract to the group ofcompanies, and the province agreed to kick in its share.

Thecontract was signed in September.

But beforethe deal could close, Mr. Baird said that although the plan met with allfederal government requirements, the money would only be handed over if the newcity council voted for the project again after the election.

Yetbecause the federal money had not been signed off, the successful resolutionfor killing the project said essentially that the city had no choice.

Mr.Chiarelli said the contract with the group of companies said the deal could becancelled if either the federal or provincial contributions weren't made, whichgives the the city an argument that it did everything it could to get thefunding in place.

OttawaSouth Liberal MP David McGuinty, a contract lawyer, said that the interventionsof Mr. Baird have exposed the federal government to the expected lawsuit by thegroup of companies against the city.

Mr.McGuinty said the companies have a case against the city "and a solid caseagainst the government of Canada" because of Mr. Baird's reckless actions.

"He'scaught in it now," Mr. McGuinty said. "Mr. Baird decided to interferein a local democracy and held Ottawa City Council ransom. He's exposed theCanadian people to litigation, the city to litigation, and potentially himselfto litigation."

Mr.Baird's spokesman, Mr. Robert, said: "I'm not going to speculate on whathappens on that front. I guess we'll have to take a wait and see."

How TheyVoted:

Kill therail line:

Rainer Bloess,Marianne Wilkinson, Shad Qadri, Alex Cullen, Gord Hunter, Michel Bellemare,Christine Leadman, Rob Jellett, Glenn Brooks, Peggy Feltmate, Larry O'Brien,Eli El-Chantiry, Rick Chiarelli

Not tokill the rail line:

BobMonette, Jan Harder, Diane Deans, Georges Bedard, Diane Holmes, Maria McRae,Clive Doucet, Peter Hume, Doug Thompson, Steve Desroches, Jacques Legendre
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/counci...ng+meant+ottawa+reset/8893987/story.html
     
     
  #11288  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2019, 6:01 PM
Corvulpes Corvulpes is offline
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a

Last edited by Corvulpes; Aug 6, 2019 at 10:24 PM.
     
     
  #11289  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 1:06 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Not to open old wounds, but I feel it is fitting to post this article from 2006 considering where we are today, 13 years later. Note, the article is missing a few spaces. I guess the 2013 transfer to a new numeric system was a little off.



http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/counci...ng+meant+ottawa+reset/8893987/story.html
Groan! This is why I joined this board. Note my Join Date. Not to rehash the whole discussion and my position, but the voting pattern is noteworthy. East and West end councilors overruled the councilors whose wards were served by the project who voted 100% in favour. After 13 years, we are finally embarking on a substandard version of the project that only effectively serves perhaps 50% of the area that the original N-S project was designed to serve. The new project delivers next to nothing new for those inside the Greenbelt who will continue to be directed away from the Trillium Line.
     
     
  #11290  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 4:13 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
..
The new project delivers next to nothing new for those inside the Greenbelt who will continue to be directed away from the Trillium Line.
Next to nothing? As a (pseudo) resident of Westboro, this appears to be a tremendous boon to the area around Westboro Station. Lots of infill going on in all aspects... which would probably not be the case with the transitway alone.

Yes, I agree the core is being neglected at the expense of the suburbs... however the original LRT on the surface through downtown would have benefited almost nobody.
     
     
  #11291  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 1:59 PM
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^ I live in Westboro a few hundred metres from Wesboro station and yep, I agree. The area is booming.

I think lrts friend meant the Trillium Line doesn't provide much benefit to those living inside the Greenbelt along that line. Which I would think is an exaggeration.. its not as frequent as the 2006 line would have been but it still has all the same stations (inside the Greenbelt) and while it does have the Bayview transfer its arguably faster as the 2006 route past Bayview was literally a streetcar and would have been stuck in traffic. The few minutes lost to transferring are made up for by a faster ride from Bayview to CBD.
     
     
  #11292  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 3:38 PM
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^ I live in Westboro a few hundred metres from Wesboro station and yep, I agree. The area is booming.

I think lrts friend meant the Trillium Line doesn't provide much benefit to those living inside the Greenbelt along that line. Which I would think is an exaggeration.. its not as frequent as the 2006 line would have been but it still has all the same stations (inside the Greenbelt) and while it does have the Bayview transfer its arguably faster as the 2006 route past Bayview was literally a streetcar and would have been stuck in traffic. The few minutes lost to transferring are made up for by a faster ride from Bayview to CBD.
Yes, your interpretation is correct. I am not talking about the Confederation Line. However, the lack of frequency on the Trillium Line makes it unreliable. I have experienced it a few times already, when the lack of frequency has resulted in 29 minute waits at Greenboro. This is unacceptable. The last time I walked 1.5 km home rather than wait almost 30 minutes. How many will put up with this if they depend on transit regularly? I don't. People will be angry and will quickly not use the Trillium Line when it creates this kind of delays.

When talking about transfers, we have to consider outbound as well as inbound. The outbound experience going from 3 minute frequency to 12 minute frequency to 30 minute frequency is bad. This is why the original plan was better for those in the south end. It was 5 minute frequency to 30 minute frequency. Regardless of somewhat slower travel times downtown, it makes for much more predictable transfers.
     
     
  #11293  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Yes, your interpretation is correct. I am not talking about the Confederation Line. However, the lack of frequency on the Trillium Line makes it unreliable. I have experienced it a few times already, when the lack of frequency has resulted in 29 minute waits at Greenboro. This is unacceptable. The last time I walked 1.5 km home rather than wait almost 30 minutes. How many will put up with this if they depend on transit regularly? I don't. People will be angry and will quickly not use the Trillium Line when it creates this kind of delays.

When talking about transfers, we have to consider outbound as well as inbound. The outbound experience going from 3 minute frequency to 12 minute frequency to 30 minute frequency is bad. This is why the original plan was better for those in the south end. It was 5 minute frequency to 30 minute frequency. Regardless of somewhat slower travel times downtown, it makes for much more predictable transfers.
They can fix this, by moving the bus schedule to align with the trains at a 24 minute frequency. 30 minutes doesn't have to be sacrosanct
     
     
  #11294  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 5:00 PM
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Next to nothing? As a (pseudo) resident of Westboro, this appears to be a tremendous boon to the area around Westboro Station. Lots of infill going on in all aspects... which would probably not be the case with the transitway alone.

Yes, I agree the core is being neglected at the expense of the suburbs... however the original LRT on the surface through downtown would have benefited almost nobody.
I would take it a step further and say it would have been a major detriment to almost everyone. The route would have provided very little relief to the Transitway routes and having the train sharing Albert and Slater streets with buses and cars would have added to the congestion. I know they claimed that it would have reduced the number of buses by 30%, but I think that was an over estimate.
     
     
  #11295  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 5:52 PM
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There's now a marked path through the Pdv food court from the station to the new Northbound bus stop on Lyon. I guess Quebec bound travellers will be using the mall on their afternoon trip.
     
     
  #11296  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 5:54 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Yes, your interpretation is correct. I am not talking about the Confederation Line. However, the lack of frequency on the Trillium Line makes it unreliable. I have experienced it a few times already, when the lack of frequency has resulted in 29 minute waits at Greenboro. This is unacceptable. The last time I walked 1.5 km home rather than wait almost 30 minutes. How many will put up with this if they depend on transit regularly? I don't. People will be angry and will quickly not use the Trillium Line when it creates this kind of delays.

When talking about transfers, we have to consider outbound as well as inbound. The outbound experience going from 3 minute frequency to 12 minute frequency to 30 minute frequency is bad. This is why the original plan was better for those in the south end. It was 5 minute frequency to 30 minute frequency. Regardless of somewhat slower travel times downtown, it makes for much more predictable transfers.
Agreed on reliability but I expect that to improve a lot with Phase 2. Implementing PTC signalling, more double track, longer trains with more doors (and thus reduced dwell time), and grade separating the VIA crossing will all result in improvement.

The best of both worlds would be if we built the 2006 LRT plan but cut it short at Bayview and then built the Confederation Line. I agree that the 12min frequency kinda sucks for outbound travel; having 5min frequencies on Trillium would make the outbound transfer painless just like the inbound one.
     
     
  #11297  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 6:23 PM
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Agreed on reliability but I expect that to improve a lot with Phase 2. Implementing PTC signalling, more double track, longer trains with more doors (and thus reduced dwell time), and grade separating the VIA crossing will all result in improvement.

The best of both worlds would be if we built the 2006 LRT plan but cut it short at Bayview and then built the Confederation Line. I agree that the 12min frequency kinda 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 for outbound travel; having 5min frequencies on Trillium would make the outbound transfer painless just like the inbound one.
plus Airport trains could go to Bayview as well eliminating a transfer no matter how smooth they tells us it will be. Less luggage moving is always a plus.
     
     
  #11298  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 6:50 PM
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If we double tracked Trillium I would favour 10 min service to Bayview from both Riverside South and Airport combining to 5 min service north of South Keys.
     
     
  #11299  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 7:13 PM
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If we double tracked Trillium I would favour 10 min service to Bayview from both Riverside South and Airport combining to 5 min service north of South Keys.
If they do this OCTranspo should consider free boarding at the airport. Would be a good motivator to get people on the train when they land.
     
     
  #11300  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2019, 8:55 PM
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If they do this OCTranspo should consider free boarding at the airport. Would be a good motivator to get people on the train when they land.
Clearly you have never been to Vancouver.
     
     
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