HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #341  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 2:49 PM
pspeid's Avatar
pspeid pspeid is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 2,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff View Post
I know they are trying to develop the land on those parking lots. I honestly believe they want to do something there other than have a parking lot. It will take some time. The idea for now is to amalgamate the two lots that are currently there - the active in-use lot and the lot furthest north.

I am torn here because I understand wanting to strong arm them into developing my most hated surface lot in the city, but I also see their perspective in wanting to use the lot, short term.

......again, I believe their interests are to put a building on that site....in my conversations with them.
Since that bit of land is just a gravel lot anyway I don't see how it would be a problem letting them pave it and put a couple more cars there until a real plan is workable.
     
     
  #342  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 2:58 PM
optimusREIM's Avatar
optimusREIM optimusREIM is offline
There is always a way
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 3,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hecate View Post
It is 100% deliberate, no different than legal crap, purposefully complicated so someone can have a job.
I would say less so someone can have a job and more so that they can hide behind a cloak of confusion. But also, legal language is made to be very precise and sometimes that means that the wording is hard to untangle and understand.

But I'm definitely on the side of making them easier to read. This isn't a court document but a public notice. It should be simple enough to read without wondering what it says.
__________________
"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm."
Federalist #10, James Madison
     
     
  #343  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 3:11 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Whatever happened to following Edmonton's user-friendly model?



I get that this is not a rezoning so it's a little more complicated to convey, but surely the City can do better than that little yellow sign.
     
     
  #344  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 3:51 PM
trueviking's Avatar
trueviking trueviking is offline
surely you agree with me
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: winnipeg
Posts: 14,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by wardlow View Post
As I understand it….

The City administration approved a conditional use application, which will allow the current parking lot to expand to the north (430 Main) subject to a bunch of condition, but the public can appeal that decision.
at least its temporary until 2022....you didn't see me use air quotes when typed temporary.

My only issue is that becoming a consistent revenue stream is a disincentive to development. Its easy to become complacent when you are raking in free money.

Hopefully it is reassessed and the taxes go up too, once it is revenue generating.
     
     
  #345  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 4:29 PM
Biff's Avatar
Biff Biff is offline
What could go wrong?
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 9,667
I get what you are saying. They are, however investing quite a bit on their building - especially the podium and upcoming courtyard renovation. In speaking with them recently, I do not believe they like the surface lot next to their building either.
__________________
"But a city can be smothered by too much reverence for its past. The skyline must keep acquiring new peaks, because the day we consider it complete and untouchable is the day the city begins to die." - Justin Davidson - May 2010 Issue of New York
     
     
  #346  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 4:30 PM
oftheMoon's Avatar
oftheMoon oftheMoon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: East Exchanger
Posts: 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
at least its temporary until 2022....you didn't see me use air quotes when typed temporary.

My only issue is that becoming a consistent revenue stream is a disincentive to development. Its easy to become complacent when you are raking in free money.

Hopefully it is reassessed and the taxes go up too, once it is revenue generating.
Providing there are really seriously pursuing something to build on that lot and the parking is truly only temporary, it would actually be refreshing to see it spruced up a bit in the meantime. But...as you noted, it's so easy for them to become complacent once it's a decent revenue stream...
     
     
  #347  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 5:21 PM
pspeid's Avatar
pspeid pspeid is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 2,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by oftheMoon View Post
Providing there are really seriously pursuing something to build on that lot and the parking is truly only temporary, it would actually be refreshing to see it spruced up a bit in the meantime. But...as you noted, it's so easy for them to become complacent once it's a decent revenue stream...
My personal impression (or maybe hope) is that the revenue generated by the surface lot would pale in comparison to whatever structure they hope to build there. I would also think (hope??) that having a bit of an eyesore like a surface parking lot next to one's marquee building would also add motivation to pursue construction. In this case, it's not like some absentee owner living in anther city that is just taking the profits from a surface lot and never having to view the negative impact their lot is making to the area.
     
     
  #348  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 6:07 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by pspeid View Post
My personal impression (or maybe hope) is that the revenue generated by the surface lot would pale in comparison to whatever structure they hope to build there. I would also think (hope??) that having a bit of an eyesore like a surface parking lot next to one's marquee building would also add motivation to pursue construction. In this case, it's not like some absentee owner living in anther city that is just taking the profits from a surface lot and never having to view the negative impact their lot is making to the area.
That would be an interesting Free Press feature... profiles of who owns some of these surface lots.

Generally I think that the more permanent a lot is allowed to become the more likely it is that it will stay, but as pspeid says, Harvard is a big enough operator that the development potential of the site probably outweighs the modest stream of income that comes from the lot.

I oppose the application personally, but I wouldn't get bent out of shape if it were permitted.
     
     
  #349  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 6:21 PM
wardlow's Avatar
wardlow wardlow is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 631
I know that the property owner is serious about developing... they know what they're doing, and they didn't recently buy all this property and make a lot of improvements to 201 Portage just so they could sit on a giant surface lot for years and years, drawing tiny but steady revenue from parking. (In short, this isn't going to be another downtown surface lot held for decades by an amateur family company.)

And I get that they're also waiting to see how the dust clears with respect to both True North Square and 300 Main -- to see if there's demand for a new building at Portage and Main.

That's all fine, but preventing one more dinky revenue stream is a way the city can effectively incentivize development quicker. I guess in this case though, because the properties on Main are such a dump and there's a billboard that isn't permitted downtown anymore, that the City took this an opportunity to leverage some small visual improvements (no more wood fence that's falling over, no more giant billboard). It's a crummy situation all around, but I take some comfort in knowing that Harvard is actually serious about, and capable of, developing the site one day.
     
     
  #350  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 6:44 PM
Wpg_Guy's Avatar
Wpg_Guy Wpg_Guy is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 6,422

__________________
Winnipeg Act II - April 2024

Winnipeg Developments

In The Future Every Building Will Be World-Famous For Fifteen Minutes.
     
     
  #351  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 7:06 PM
Winnipegger Winnipegger is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
That would be an interesting Free Press feature... profiles of who owns some of these surface lots.

Generally I think that the more permanent a lot is allowed to become the more likely it is that it will stay, but as pspeid says, Harvard is a big enough operator that the development potential of the site probably outweighs the modest stream of income that comes from the lot.

I oppose the application personally, but I wouldn't get bent out of shape if it were permitted.
I've always wondered about the economics of surface parking lots versus development downtown. In general, I don't think we see the prevalence of surface parking lots in Winnipeg because they are relatively profitable compared to say, an office building, but rather because they are essentially risk-less investments (especially in Winnipeg where demand is strong) with next to no costs associated with them. Let's go through a mathematical example to see what I'm talking about:

Parking Lot Economics:
Let's assume for a moment Harvard Developments was allowed to expand their 59 spot surface lot at 416 Main and add an additional 36 spots on the vacant property beside it (which doesn't currently have an address as far as I can tell).

Based on 2019 tax rates and the city's assessment base, I'd estimate that those two lots combined would pay the city around $25,000 in property tax per year (note: contrast this to the $1.18 million that 201 Portage will pay on a plot of land roughly double the size). Let's double the municipal tax amount to (roughly) account for school taxes as well.

From Impark's website, the going rate for a monthly pass on 416 main is $240, so minus PST and GST, the revenue is $211 per month, per spot. Let's assume the general maintenance per spot is $200 per year. Tally all this together for the 95 spot surface lot, and we get the following:
  • Total Operating Costs: $101,468
  • Total Annual Revenue: $273,600
  • Total Annual Net Profit: $172,131


Office Building Economics:
So basically the surface lot owner pockets $170k, per year, by owning a piece of land covered in concrete or gravel, with the only maintenance involving probably hiring a company to come sweep the lot once or twice a year with the occasional electrical repair.

In order to get this lot developed in to something else, it's obvious that the expected annual net profit of some sort of new investment (with likely much higher risk) needs to be higher than $170k in this scenario, if my math is right.

Would another building similar to 201 Portage on those two surface lots net $170k per year? Most likely. According to Cushman and Wakefield's Q2 2018 report, the low end cap rate on Class A office space in Winnipeg is around 5.5%, which, if I am interpreting this correctly, means a building built at a cost of $200 million would need to have a net operating income of around $11 million per year to be financially feasible and attractive to real estate developers (after all other costs are paid).

201 Portage, as an example, is around 505,000 sq.ft. in size. If the gross rental rate is around $36 per sq.ft. per year (reasonable based on some quick research about 201 Portage), the the entire tower if at full capacity generates around $18 million per year. How much does it net, minus operating costs? That's something I don't know but based on the existing market, it's probably between 5.5% and 6.5%.

Is it reasonable to assume that another fully occupied office tower on those surface parking lots could generate more return on investment than a surface parking lot? Of course, since a new structure would only need to generate around $200,000 or more per year in net income. If the cap rate 5.5% and the net income is $200,000, then the building needs to bring in at least $3.7 million per year, which at $36 gross rent per sq.ft. means around 100,000 square feet of rentable space. Since the surface area of those two lots is around 30,000 square feet, there's a good chance you'd only need a building that's about 4 stories or higher (fully occupied) to make a profit greater than the parking lots themselves - maybe (if I'm doing this right, but I'm sure this math is way more complicated in real life and I'm over simplifying things.)

However, as we all know, that would only occur if there is enough tenants to fill the office space. So obviously there is money to be made, but only if tenants can be lined up with is always a risky endeavor - except in Calgary, where massive vacancy rates haven't seemed to put much of a dent in real estate development contrary to all logic.

Last edited by Winnipegger; Jul 18, 2019 at 7:17 PM.
     
     
  #352  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 7:11 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
^ Interesting analytical take.

But the gap between a surface lot and a 500,000 sf skyscraper as you used in your example is enormous... what if somewhere along the line a more modest 100,000 sf building had been built? It could have filled the space and improved the urban environment arguably just as well as a tower. Would the math add up for something like that, or is it tower-or-bust on that site?
     
     
  #353  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 8:37 PM
buzzg buzzg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 7,834
Ya I know through talking to the owners of The Palomino that Harvard is actively working on a plan. Not necessarily at the design stage, but certainly researching what the potential (market) is for that site right now. They've been keeping them in the loop on everything, and do eventually want to redevelop the Pal's parking lot and patio. It's still possible that happens before the gravel lot is developed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Whatever happened to following Edmonton's user-friendly model?
There's currently an ongoing "pilot project" where the city is testing new signage at 2 developments I believe. Think they're going to assess in spring. Wild that they "need" to do this.
     
     
  #354  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2019, 8:41 PM
optimusREIM's Avatar
optimusREIM optimusREIM is offline
There is always a way
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 3,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
^ Interesting analytical take.

But the gap between a surface lot and a 500,000 sf skyscraper as you used in your example is enormous... what if somewhere along the line a more modest 100,000 sf building had been built? It could have filled the space and improved the urban environment arguably just as well as a tower. Would the math add up for something like that, or is it tower-or-bust on that site?
Well given its prominence I'd say tower or bust, or at least something more than just a filler that is thrown in to complete the street wall. The other option is to risk it and build a mixed use development consisting of a mix of condos, rentals, hotel, retail, and maybe even office. I'm sure that spreading out your risk like that would make it much easier to develop instead of putting your bets into a set of a few major office tenants.

Anyways, I think that tower is totally feasible for the site even in the shorter term. As for other surface lots, I find the idea that lots of owners don't develop because they're too comfortable sitting on a small cash cow to be bothered to take a risk to make big money. It's smart for them because it makes them free money basically, but really hurts the prospects for downtown development, especially if they refuse to sell to people who do have an active interest in making some noise. Anyways just my opinion
__________________
"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm."
Federalist #10, James Madison
     
     
  #355  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2019, 4:51 AM
trueviking's Avatar
trueviking trueviking is offline
surely you agree with me
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: winnipeg
Posts: 14,703
Harvard is very much looking to develop their lot. It’s all about finding a tenant. They chase every opportunity but they are few and far between.
     
     
  #356  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2019, 12:41 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
Harvard is very much looking to develop their lot. It’s all about finding a tenant. They chase every opportunity but they are few and far between.
Is there any possibility of bringing back the idea of a hotel on that site? Or has the Sutton Place pretty well eliminated any chance of that happening?
     
     
  #357  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2019, 2:16 PM
trueviking's Avatar
trueviking trueviking is offline
surely you agree with me
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: winnipeg
Posts: 14,703
They have been looking at office tenants. Not sure if a hotel is till viable.
     
     
  #358  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2019, 2:19 PM
optimusREIM's Avatar
optimusREIM optimusREIM is offline
There is always a way
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 3,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
They have been looking at office tenants. Not sure if a hotel is till viable.
I think that as more residential units start to come online (i.e.: 300 main), the demand for new units will probably increase, plus 416 would be hands down one of the best places to live in the whole city if you worked at any office in the immediate vicinity.

I think hotel and rental/condo could work perfectly well there. Throw in some office and a few CRUs and you now have a rival to TNS
__________________
"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm."
Federalist #10, James Madison
     
     
  #359  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2019, 2:31 PM
pspeid's Avatar
pspeid pspeid is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 2,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzg View Post
Ya I know through talking to the owners of The Palomino that Harvard is actively working on a plan. Not necessarily at the design stage, but certainly researching what the potential (market) is for that site right now. They've been keeping them in the loop on everything, and do eventually want to redevelop the Pal's parking lot and patio. It's still possible that happens before the gravel lot is developed.
I know this is basically theoretical now, but did the owners mention if the building the Palomino is currently in would be saved? I would think that thought of destroying that building would meet with huge resistance (from myself for one).
     
     
  #360  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2019, 2:58 PM
trueviking's Avatar
trueviking trueviking is offline
surely you agree with me
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: winnipeg
Posts: 14,703
It is protected.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:42 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.