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  #1521  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 12:35 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by OttawaSteve View Post
The Netherlands. A single card for national rail and all local transit. Load specific travel products or pay as you go.

https://www.ns.nl/en/travel-information/traveling-with-the-ov-chipkaart
The whole concept of "where else do they do it" is nonsense. Even if they didn't do it anywhere else, it would make sense to do it here. Build what makes sense for you.
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  #1522  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 1:24 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I think you should tell us what your expectations are to get you to use rail service. Please be as specific as possible.
He has this weird idea that trains are only for Europeans cause they are cultural and Italian dudes like to visit Mama in the weekend.

Such skepticism should not be taken seriously. With the subpar service and high prices VIA charges today, they fill virtually every train and are already just a few trains short of hourly service. Improving reliability, speed and cost will only boost demand.

A And it's not just VIA. Check out every GO/Exo train and subway in Toronto and Montreal. Bursting at the seams. We are at near European levels of transit usage in these cities. The idea that people won't use trains if provided decent service is hogwash.

I hope the CIB study is damn detailed. I'd bet a paycheque on higher than VIA's projected ridership and a net profit for the operator (be it VIA or someone else).
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  #1523  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 5:23 AM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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He has this weird idea that trains are only for Europeans cause they are cultural and Italian dudes like to visit Mama in the weekend.
So I guess they just teleported before they had trains?
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  #1524  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 1:35 PM
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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
If VIA HFR goes ahead, alot more people will choose the train than drive their cars. Guys like you and ACOttawa are just not willing to do the proper planning for cheaper train rides like the rest of us do so that's no way our fault, you should blame yourselves for that. The biggest rail proponents is VIA itself, so yes they need to prove they have the right plan in place for its future viability because they cant continue to share tracks with others when they have growing ridership between Ottawa and Toronto justifying their own right of way is needed.
Ah yes, the old "it's the customer's fault" argument. Sounds like a successful business.

People will plan their trips whenever they can. People are also accustomed to using their cars; it's the default mode for most. If Via can't provide pricing and scheduling that competes with taking the car then they won't succeed in getting people out of them. It's that simple, and it hurts Via, not drivers.
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  #1525  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 1:46 PM
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Ah yes, the old "it's the customer's fault" argument. Sounds like a successful business.

People will plan their trips whenever they can. People are also accustomed to using their cars; it's the default mode for most. If Via can't provide pricing and scheduling that competes with taking the car then they won't succeed in getting people out of them. It's that simple, and it hurts Via, not drivers.
Many passengers already plan properly which is why those cheap fares sell quickly so your excuse doesn't hold, just plan ahead like others do including myself and there wont be a problem.

VIA has a high demand corridor which is why VIA wants HFR. As Truenorth has said, once HFR proceeds, it will be very competitive vs car use. Even right now their trains fill up with customers and that's all the reason they need to expand further service to hourly trains.
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  #1526  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 2:08 PM
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Many do/can and many don't/can't "plan properly" (incidentally the condescension in that statement is quite appalling). There's also a large group for which rail doesn't even register in their planning. The latter groups are where the growth potential is and it's not their duty to make rail work. Rail must work for them or they'll continue doing what they do, quite happily.
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  #1527  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 3:03 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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If people are highly price sensitive, then VIA will clearly not be for them.

At the moment, VIA is attractive for those looking for comfort, a reasonably competitive trip compared to a car, and are adverse to traffic congestion or don't have access to a car. I suspect that this latter group will be growing in the future.

HFR will extend this by offering trips that will be more convenient, more available and travel times to downtown will be faster than by car.

No, the ultra price sensitive group will still not use the service. I am not counting on lower fares with HFR. VIA's goal is to break even on the HFR route to reduce dependence on government funding and political interference.
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  #1528  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
At the moment, VIA is attractive for those looking for comfort, a reasonably competitive trip compared to a car, and are adverse to traffic congestion or don't have access to a car. I suspect that this latter group will be growing in the future.
Absolutely. As a filthy, non-car-owning millennial I can confirm that taking the train to Toronto is more convenient if i'm going to be spending my time in the city proper. No car to worry about, no parking; just hopping off at Union and going from there. The cost isn't really all that much more than gas money...I can usually roundtrip for between $130-$160.

Right now the travel time is roughly 4hr30 which is ok but could be better. If that time ever got down to 3hr30 or 4hr then renting a car wouldn't even cross my mind.
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  #1529  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 3:39 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Again. These back and forth discussions are pointless. HFR will not operate like VIA's Corridor services today. Start with that. Once you understand this, it's easier to discuss where HFR can make headway.

I try and avoid calling it VIA. Quite frankly, I am not even sure it'll be VIA running HFR services. Could end up like Brightline in the US. Maybe we end up with Virgin Trains Canada or something like that.

Again. VIA says 9.9 million passengers for HFR in 2030. Compare that to ALL of VIA carrying 4.7 million pax in 2018 and 4.5 million on the Corridor in 2018. To achieve those numbers HFR will have to be a different service.

It has to be competitive with driving. Does this mean it'll be competitive for every driver, in every situation? Absolutely not. But it will most certainly be competitive for a lot of driving situations. Traveling alone? HFR is definitely going to beat driving. Heck, comes close to doing that today. With more trains and a slightly lower fare, this is a lock. Couples or families traveling together? Probably comes down to price sensitivity. Many will drive.

The biggest loser is probably going to be Greyhound. Their largest and second largest hubs are Toronto and Ottawa. With train fares coming closer to Greyhound's fares and a definite gain in speed, Greyhound is going to suffer.

As for "planning ahead". The entire point of offering hourly schedules is so that the need to plan ahead is substantially reduced. There will be enough capacity to buy a ticket on the spot. The only risk becomes getting the specific time slot you want. Therefore, the premium service becomes a specific time slot, not a seat itself. So you can arrive at the station and buy a ticket at your risk. Maybe you miss the next train and take one in two hours. Or if your schedule matters, you pay the premium and reserve a seat on a specific train in advance. This is how it runs in a lot of the world.

Think of two categories of bookings:

1) Open reservation. You book for a specific leg. But don't have a specific train. Or possibly even a specific day. You arrive at the station and redeem your seat reservation for a train ticket. Eurail passes work like this, as an example.

2) Reserved seat. You pay a premium to reserve a seat on a specific train. Often includes seat selection as well.

There will be a mix of both categories on a train. You see this all the time in other parts of the world. You can get on a train where some seats are reserved and others are open.

With these two categories, you then end up with variations as incentive schemes. So maybe open reservations are only possible online prior to departure and every reservation made at the station is a reserved seat. Or maybe reserved seats are only offered online in advance. And if you buy the day of travel, you get an automatic assignment on the next train with system assigned seat. How these variations play out will be part of operator's revenue management system. They'll come up with policies that maximize revenue on the seats offered.

Right now, VIA's revenue management policies necessarily drive the booking engine to high fares because they usually have more demand than seats. When they start moving 10 million pax annually, that will not be the case.
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  #1530  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2019, 4:48 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Absolutely. As a filthy, non-car-owning millennial I can confirm that taking the train to Toronto is more convenient if i'm going to be spending my time in the city proper. No car to worry about, no parking; just hopping off at Union and going from there. The cost isn't really all that much more than gas money...I can usually roundtrip for between $130-$160.
Depending on the vehicle, gas is between $70-90 roundtrip. So $130-160 is a fair bit more than gas. That said, $40-90 difference over fuel price doesn't make up for all the costs beyond gas if you don't own a vehicle. And if you do own a vehicle and can afford it, not having to spend 10 hrs driving along is worth the extra cost for most people. I don't do roadtrips now unless there's somebody else in the car with me. Not worth the fatigue and wear and tear on the car. And my hybrid is <$70 on gas for that roundtrip.

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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Right now the travel time is roughly 4hr30 which is ok but could be better. If that time ever got down to 3hr30 or 4hr then renting a car wouldn't even cross my mind.
It's not just the travel time. A car affords you the flexibility to leave whenever you want. An hourly schedule is about the closest an intercity train could come to that. Now imagine an hourly schedule and ticket prices around $70-100.
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  #1531  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 11:45 AM
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https://obj.ca/article/train-traffic-ottawa-18-over-canada-day-weekend-rail

I read that in the Ottawa business journal this morning and it looks like the demand for rail travel will continue to grow.

I really do hope VIA's HFR gets apporoved since its obvioulsy needed.
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  #1532  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 2:48 PM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
https://obj.ca/article/train-traffic-ottawa-18-over-canada-day-weekend-rail

I read that in the Ottawa business journal this morning and it looks like the demand for rail travel will continue to grow.

I really do hope VIA's HFR gets apporoved since its obvioulsy needed.
I hope so too, but it seems this government would rather throw money on a pipeline that will never make money to try to appease the troglodytes screeching about carbon taxes than on something that would actually reduce carbon emissions
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  #1533  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
https://obj.ca/article/train-traffic-ottawa-18-over-canada-day-weekend-rail

I read that in the Ottawa business journal this morning and it looks like the demand for rail travel will continue to grow.
Got to love the stock photo the OBJ decided to use. It is a EMD FP9 bought in the 1950s by either CN or CP and sold to VIA when they took over passenger service. Number 6510 (pictured) is on static display in Thunder Bay ref.

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  #1534  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2019, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Got to love the stock photo the OBJ decided to use. It is a EMD FP9 bought in the 1950s by either CN or CP and sold to VIA when they took over passenger service. Number 6510 (pictured) is on static display in Thunder Bay
Good Day.

I kinda like that image...... it reflects and speaks to the age of the equipment (apart from more recent motive power or the LRC cars) and the age of the lines they run upon.

Historical.
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  #1535  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2019, 5:27 AM
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Arrow

I haven't been following the discussion here recently and as I've only managed to read up the last few months now, I will refrain from commenting on some already rather old posts, except for the following two remarks:


#1
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Originally Posted by GoTrans View Post
Regardless of which route you want to make the principal route you need to separate the freight from the passenger and to a lesser extent commuter service from inter-city service if you want to add more service and increase the speed. You have 4 options;

1. Triple track or quadruple track the existing Lakeshore route and have 1 or 2 tracks for passenger and 2 tracks for freight. You will have to build rail to rail separations so freight and passenger trains can switch sides at certain locations and junctions. You will have to expand all the existing grade separations and subways in order have the extra tracks.

2. Move the passenger trains off the existing Lakeshore route on the HFR route ( ex CP route ).

3. Move the freight off the existing Lakeshore route but keep trackage rights for CN to handle freight at night for customers on the Lakeshore route. This would mean having Via purchase the CN trackage and then CN built their own double track line on the proposed HFR ex CP route or take the cash and use it to convert the existing CP route to a joint ownership with triple tracks to a point where CN diverges to get back to the existing mainline somewhere between Cornwall and Montreal.

4. The same as option 3 but have Via use the ex CP Montreal & Ottawa route that Via already owns from Ottawa to Rigaud and have CN use the current Via line through Alexandria. Via could follow the CP tracks to Dorval and switch to CN to gain access to Central Station.

This is the only way you can get higher speed trains free to run on higher quality track and be free of interference from slow freights. The other way to increase speeds is to use bi-mode diesel electrics which can make use of both electrified and un-electrified territory. As more of the trackage is electrified the locomotives can run in electric mode for greater distances until the whole line is electrified. CN would probably not be in a hurry to electrify their system although at some point in time they will have to come to grips with greenhouse gases. Electric locomotives also have better acceleration and braking than diesel locomotives.
You can cross #4 from your list, as CN is in the process of abandoning all trackage (or trackage rights) in the Ottawa area (including on the entire Alexandria Subdivision), which will make the Alexandria Subdivision effectively a dedicated passenger corridor...



#2
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
People really need to look at Barcelona-Zaragoza-Madrid mentioned in the video. Similar population distribution and slightly longer than Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. They had hundreds of flight a day too when service started. It's one of the most profitable HSR lines in the world today.
I'd rather argue that you should take a closer look at what HSR has really achieved in Spain, as this academic report produced in Spain estimates that Madrid-Barcelona will only recover less than half of its entire financial costs (i.e. operational and capital costs combined) over a 50-year period and that even including any social benefits fails to attain the break-even point. Even if Madrid-Barcelona at the very least recovers their operating costs (an already ridiculously low barrier which Madrid-Villadolid still somehow fails to meet), calling it "one of the most profitable HSR lines in the world today" does grave injustice to lines like Tokyo-Osaka and Paris-Lyon, which have actually repaid their entire capital costs:


Just to underline why Spain would be the last country I would name as a successful HSR nation, it accounts for 9.1% of the European Union's population and 31.4% of its HSR network, but only 5.9% of its rail ridership:

Last edited by Urban_Sky; Jul 13, 2019 at 1:27 PM.
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  #1536  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2019, 9:15 PM
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I haven't been following the discussion here recently
Welcome back to this thread! I, for one, am glad to see you back.
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  #1537  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2019, 12:34 AM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Welcome back to this thread! I, for one, am glad to see you back.
I concur. Refreshing to read informed analysis as opposed to Richard Potvin.
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  #1538  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2019, 1:12 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by Urban_Sky View Post
I'd rather argue that you should take a closer look at what HSR has really achieved in Spain, as this academic report produced in Spain estimates that Madrid-Barcelona will only recover less than half of its entire financial costs (i.e. operational and capital costs combined) over a 50-year period and that even including any social benefits fails to attain the break-even point. Even if Madrid-Barcelona at the very least recovers their operating costs (an already ridiculously low barrier which Madrid-Villadolid still somehow fails to meet), calling it "one of the most profitable HSR lines in the world today" does grave injustice to lines like Tokyo-Osaka and Paris-Lyon, which have actually repaid their entire capital costs:.....

Just to underline why Spain would be the last country I would name as a successful HSR nation, it accounts for 9.1% of the European Union's population and 31.4% of its HSR network, but only 5.9% of its rail ridership
The other lesson of Spain is not to overbuild. It's a good thing HFR is not HSR.

But in terms of usage, Barcelona-Madrid does offer lessons because of the context. Similar distance. Similar setup with two large metros and a smaller one in the middle. Similar population of each city.

You're right that there are corridors that are more profitable.
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  #1539  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2019, 4:33 PM
CityTech CityTech is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
The other lesson of Spain is not to overbuild. It's a good thing HFR is not HSR.
Many European HSR lines are actually examples of this lesson. Many of these HSR lines were very expensive to build, require high ticket prices, and compromised by things like having to slow down in the cities, stop at inconvenient locations, etc. Something like HFR would actually have probably been a better choice for most of the EU's HSR corridors.
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  #1540  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2019, 4:46 PM
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Many European HSR lines are actually examples of this lesson. Many of these HSR lines were very expensive to build, require high ticket prices, and compromised by things like having to slow down in the cities, stop at inconvenient locations, etc. Something like HFR would actually have probably been a better choice for most of the EU's HSR corridors.
Europe's Inter City (IC) trains are effectively HFR. Those trains are more frequently used by locals, but they don't have the prestige of the HSR trains.
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