Official Fredericton, NB projects thread

[Taeolas]

The 250,000$ clause was built into the contract for the hotel. If Aquilini didn't want to abide by that, they should have negotiated it away or just walked away from the project. If the city DOESN'T try to follow through with that clause then it would harm the city's reputation. Residents would rightfully be asking why put it in if it isn't followed, and other developers would agree or add in golden eggs like that, and expect to be paid even if they don't meet the achievement requirements.

Now, as Aquilini points out, some of the delays were unexpected (archaeological remains) or unexpected at the scale encountered (flooding), so they can rightfully argue for extensions there. (They should probably have argued for an extension at the time).

But the delays due to the death and the investigation of the death is squarely on their shoulders since they are ultimately responsible for their works working safely.

That's why I suspect there will be a private settlement in the end; the city will pay some of the amount out, but not the entire amount, and the actual amount will be buried in a byline of the city budget somewhere where attention won't be drawn to it. That would be the best solution to this, and the expected solution to it really.

[Franco401]

Giving any handout to a developer is idiotic, as is the notion that Aquilini are doing a public service by investing in a project that they stand to gain the most from. Developers are around to make themselves money, make no mistake.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Franco401

Giving any handout to a developer is idiotic, as is the notion that Aquilini are doing a public service by investing in a project that they stand to gain the most from. Developers are around to make themselves money, make no mistake.

That's somewhat arguable. Of course the developer's goal is to make money, but the addition of a second downtown hotel is huge for the city. If it took some financial investment to make that happen, I'm okay with that.

[FreddyGuy]

Originally Posted by Franco401

Giving any handout to a developer is idiotic, as is the notion that Aquilini are doing a public service by investing in a project that they stand to gain the most from. Developers are around to make themselves money, make no mistake.

Idiotic is looking at it like a socialist who thinks corporations owe you something. In the first year this project would have had enough economic spin off to justify every cent of "handout" they got.

Every worker got a paycheck.
Local suppliers sold supplies.
Those not from here stayed in our hotels while it was going up.
They ate at our restaurants, they shopped at our stores.
Now that is is open tourists come and spend more money here. They stay in the hotel and allow the Frederictonians working there to have employment by doing so.
Those people eat at our restaurants and shop at our stores.
I'm sure the conference center has already booked conferences that it might not of without a hotel attached. Then those people pump more into the local economy.

I understand that the indirect benefits might be hard for some to grasp but then there is the property tax revenue which alone recoups the millions invested very quickly. That is a pretty easy investment decision.

Giving "handouts" encourages development and makes sense on this scale period. Like it or not, this is how the world works, the developer probably would have made a heck of a lot more money putting their hotel in another more populous city, had it not been for the "handouts" we still probably would not have this hotel.

Once again I will repeat, what benefit would it have been to the developer to delay the project by 3 months? There is none. The 3 month delay is more than enough of a penalty in of itself.

The terms were set but what real benifit to the city is having a clause like this performance bonus in the first place? All it does is encourage people to rush, and construction suffers as does safety, which is pretty obvious on this one since someone died. Who's to say if that man would still be alive had it not been for this performance bonus...

[Tridus]

Originally Posted by FreddyGuy

Idiotic is looking at it like a socialist who thinks corporations owe you something. In the first year this project would have had enough economic spin off to justify every cent of "handout" they got.

Idiotic is trying to argue that corporate welfare is to our benefit because we owe corporations something.

They only did this because they stand to make money from it. Period. You can bet that if the city didn't uphold its end of the contract, the company would be all over them for compensation. The city would be neglectful of its job for not doing the same.

A company isn't going to look at something that stands to make them millions and go "oh, if we run late we might have to pay the $250k penalty we agreed to up front, so lets not bother." They factor that in at the start before deciding to ever agree to it.

Corporate welfare is nothing more than taking money from poor taxpayers and transferring it to rich companies. If they can't abide by terms they agreed to, they should probably not agree to them. That's pretty standard for anyone entering into a contract.

[FreddyGuy]

Originally Posted by Tridus

Idiotic is trying to argue that corporate welfare is to our benefit because we owe corporations something.

They only did this because they stand to make money from it. Period. You can bet that if the city didn't uphold its end of the contract, the company would be all over them for compensation. The city would be neglectful of its job for not doing the same.

A company isn't going to look at something that stands to make them millions and go "oh, if we run late we might have to pay the $250k penalty we agreed to up front, so lets not bother." They factor that in at the start before deciding to ever agree to it.

Corporate welfare is nothing more than taking money from poor taxpayers and transferring it to rich companies. If they can't abide by terms they agreed to, they should probably not agree to them. That's pretty standard for anyone entering into a contract.

Once again, the developer was not forced to invest here. This was at least the third attempt to try and sway a developer to build a hotel on this site. Without sweetening the deal, they would not have built here and we would have lost out on the millions and millions into our local economy. What is so hard to comprehend about this?

This is how Capitalism works my friend. A free market of goods and services where the owners, founders and investors profit from their efforts and the rest of us gain willful employment and can feed our families, buy toys and go on vacations. If you don't like this system I suggest you try a socialist country who abides more by your rules. Here is a map of them-


Pick one and have fun living there.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Tridus

Corporate welfare is nothing more than taking money from poor taxpayers and transferring it to rich companies. If they can't abide by terms they agreed to, they should probably not agree to them. That's pretty standard for anyone entering into a contract.

I would consider it less "corporate welfare", and more a "business incentive"

FreddyGuy is correct - by incentivizing this project, a hotel has been built in the downtown core of Freddy creating jobs in the construction and hospitality industries and helping to support nearby services like restaurants. The convention centre becomes much more attractive to potential users because of onsite accommodations. The city's (and the provinces) tax base is enhanced by an increased property and income tax base, allowing for enhanced provincial and municipal services.

Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

Corporate welfare to me is more applicable to a situation where the government supports a failing business which would otherwise go bankrupt. This is never a winning scenario. Examples of this include Atcon in the Miramichi, the steel mill in Cape Breton or that shipyard on the Acadian Peninsula.

If there is no business model for a company to survive, then the government has no business investing in it - period. There was however a sound business case to be made to incentivize the hotel construction. The city will recoup it's investment through incremental tax revenue. The city was completely justified in what it did.

[Taeolas]

A contract was made between the city and the company to get the hotel built. The City wanted it built within a certain time frame for various reasons (to be available during prime tourist season, to not have construction interrupting other projects, or whatever other reasons), so the time bonus clause was negotiated and put in to sweeten the deal.

In the end, the hotel wasn't finished in the time window for the bonus, so as far as the city is concerned the criteria for that bonus was not met, plain and simple.

If Aquilini had also negotiated a promotion package for their new hotel (like "City of Fredericton will promote the Aquilini properties prominently on the website and in tourism material for the next 3 years after opening, at no cost to Aquilini or related businesses.", and the City decided "nah, we're going to focus our tourism marketing dollars on Kingswood instead." then Aquilini would be in its rights to sue the city for not honoring the contract deal.

Of course, the City is loathe to pay money it doesn't 'have' to pay, and Aquilini pretty much by law has to seek out all the money it feels it is owed, so Aquilini suing for the 250k isn't unexpected; it's basically the last stage of contract negotiation when things don't go perfectly. As I pointed out earlier; some of the delays were unavoidable for reasons outside the City and Aquilini's control, and some delays are squarely on Aquilini's shoulders. Ultimately, this sort of thing tends to be settled for some middle-ground amount outside the courts and then the records are sealed for whatever reasons.

Really, this is much ado about basically nothing.

[Dr.Devon]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Really, this is much ado about basically nothing.

Couldn't agree more. 250k is peanuts to Aquilini. However, if I were a shareholder I would expect they use any option available to reduce the cost. And only the flipside, as a taxpayer I'd expect the City to recoup the agreed upon fee for late completion. This is business and the suit is just part of the business. I doubt it's even that contentious. And if the Aquilini didn't think they could make money on this hotel they wounldn't have built it here. There is many spinoff benefits to the city but that's not why they built it.

Relax fellas.

[Freddypop]

Originally Posted by FreddyGuy

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns...te-housing-market-sales-growth-1.5201871

Fredericton real estate sales up 58 percent over same period last year. I'm sure this news will encourage some new construction.

Read in this AM's paper that apartment vacancies in Freddy are at an all time low. One bedroom apartments especially are next to impossible to find. Will create issues for the last minute university crowd I'm sure. Also to confirm FreddyGuy's message above that real estate is flying off shelf. Homes that have location, priced correctly are receiving multiple offers. I have a friend in real estate and he says that this is the busiest he has seen it in his 22 year career! Inventory is low and prices are rising!

[Tridus]

Originally Posted by FreddyGuy

Once again, the developer was not forced to invest here. This was at least the third attempt to try and sway a developer to build a hotel on this site. Without sweetening the deal, they would not have built here and we would have lost out on the millions and millions into our local economy. What is so hard to comprehend about this?

This is how Capitalism works my friend. A free market of goods and services where the owners, founders and investors profit from their efforts and the rest of us gain willful employment and can feed our families, buy toys and go on vacations. If you don't like this system I suggest you try a socialist country who abides more by your rules. Here is a map of them-

I'm really not sure how you'r getting from "the city should uphold its end of the contract the way the company would if the situation were reversed" to "socialism". That's a truly remarkable leap.

I don't know what is so hard about this. The city already gave out a bunch of incentives on this, giving up money they're legally owed in the contract because the company doesn't feel like paying it is full on corporate welfare and a joke for taxpayers that deserve better representation. It's not going to stop anything from happening in the future, that's just fear mongering.

[Steeple Shanks]

Noticed that they have built a slope up to the walking path from the former Irving site across the path from Picaroons.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by Steeple Shanks

Noticed that they have built a slope up to the walking path from the former Irving site across the path from Picaroons.

As noted earlier in the thread, it's for the Carleton Park extension:

Originally Posted by Freddypop

Carleton Park expansion. That area specifically will become a boating centre

http://www.fredericton.ca/sites/default/files/recreation/carletonparkfinalreport2017.pdf

It's pretty much a perfect location for a boat launch area as is, though the soil remediation may be a hassle.

[OliverD]

But as was also noted earlier, they're not working on the park, this is prep work for the repairs that are going to be done to the walking bridge this fall.

[brunes]

Originally Posted by Freddypop

Carleton Park expansion. That area specifically will become a boating centre

http://www.fredericton.ca/sites/default/files/recreation/carletonparkfinalreport2017.pdf

If thats the true long term plan for this site, thats very disappointing.

This is really an ideal site for a top-tier waterfront bar & restaurant of some kind - something this city really lacks (ever notice we don't have A SINGLE waterfront restaurant in Fredericton??? Its madness...).

Its ideal because it is directly beside the walking bridge so could attract walking traffic from both downtown and the north side - plus there is an enormous amount of new housing being built in the immediate vicinity to give it a robust client base.


We do not make enough use of our valuable waterfront space... yes it is great how we have so much green space here HOWEVER some subset of it SHOULD be reserved for commercial use to get some juicy property tax dollars from it. Think about how lively the Halifax waterfront is in the everning, there is no reason Fredericton should not be comparable. But it isn't because our waterfront is all sucked up by green space, which is great during the day, then dead in the evening.

[Taeolas]

Part of the problem is that a lot of our 'prime riverfront real estate' is also 'prime flood zone real estate'. Picaroons built in the Roundhouse knowing it's gong to be flooded and inaccessible 2 weeks out of 52 basically, but they can afford to do that because they're selling their drink mainly. A restaurant would have a harder time handling that (look at Cannon's Cross Pub's issues; if it didnt' have a legacy, it would probably be closed after the past 2 years of flooding + construction)

Unless they really build up that area, I don't really see it as a good restaurant spot; a boat launch area (moving it from Carleton Park) would probably be more useful.

Now if Piccaroons wanted to expand to a full restaurant to go with the brewery, that would probably be an excellent idea. As long as they build it with floods in mind.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by brunes

If thats the true long term plan for this site, thats very disappointing.

This is really an ideal site for a top-tier waterfront bar & restaurant of some kind - something this city really lacks (ever notice we don't have A SINGLE waterfront restaurant in Fredericton??? Its madness...).

Its ideal because it is directly beside the walking bridge so could attract walking traffic from both downtown and the north side - plus there is an enormous amount of new housing being built in the immediate vicinity to give it a robust client base.


We do not make enough use of our valuable waterfront space... yes it is great how we have so much green space here HOWEVER some subset of it SHOULD be reserved for commercial use to get some juicy property tax dollars from it. Think about how lively the Halifax waterfront is in the everning, there is no reason Fredericton should not be comparable. But it isn't because our waterfront is all sucked up by green space, which is great during the day, then dead in the evening.

It might not be financially feasible to build there though, due to the flooding issues. There's also not that much housing being built nearby. There's the Colpitts development and that's pretty much it.

We do have some restaurants that have patios that overlook the river.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Now if Piccaroons wanted to expand to a full restaurant to go with the brewery, that would probably be an excellent idea. As long as they build it with floods in mind.

Something on stilts perhaps?

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Something on stilts perhaps?

Maybe something more like a second floor on top of the Roundhouse, with a glass-faced dining room facing the river and walking trail to give the views. Of course that section is a bit wooded so the views wouldn't be as great but could be something.

[cl812]

One thing that bugs me is the vegetation growth along the river (right downtown and on the north end of the bridge), I have no problem with trees in the city but it just looks bad as it is mostly alders and small bushes that just block the view of the river and downtown (from the northside). They likely need Prov. Gov't (Environment) approval to clear the vegetation, but would look much better if the city cleared at least that small area under the bridge (on both sides of the river).

Was downtown at lunch, looks like the new office on Carleton Street is going above the 5th floor, they have already poured the elevator shaft up to level 6, and they appear to be placing forms for the columns as well. I dont think this is for the mech penthouse as concrete construction doesnt seem to be common for the penthouse and like I said it appears to be the elevator shaft that has been poured (near the centre of the building). Hopefully this means they are going to top out at 7 floors + mech penthouse.