General Phoenix Metro Discussion Thread

[Mr.RE]

Originally Posted by muertecaza

Good jobs numbers:

https://ktar.com/story/2639893/phoenix-metro-area-tops-nation-for-jobs-created-in-past-year/

We're beating San Francisco in jobs added AND people are fleeing their state for phoenix? Seems like a healthy combo for continued new development.

[combusean]

SF is full. We hit a breaking point. The hiring market has slowed a bit but I would consider this pace to be very healthy.

You can thank our NIMBYs.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I still don’t see the beauty in Union Station the way Talton does. To me, the stucco walls and tile roof resemble a thousand suburban subdivisions. Nevertheless, if the city can do anything with this building that might help bring Amtrak service back to Phoenix and set the stage for commuter rail, then the investment would be worthwhile. The odds are the tough though. Waring and DiCiccio will oppose this from the right, and I wouldn’t be surprised if newcomers Garcia and Guardado oppose it from the left.

It does represent more than its design shows on its exerior, I agree; it is essentially the reason the Phoenix metro exists today, serving as the core hub of transit into the economic driver of the area - the transfer of produce and other goods within and beyond the warehouse district. Not only would places like Arcadia not exist, but Mackay wouldn't have the beautiful - if less-than-average vs. competitor markets - warehouses south of Jefferson to give away to small companies to turn into private fortress and a sea of parking.

But, seriously, had the City and County made just a few less massive urban development blunders, VB > Lincoln/Grant, 7th Ave > 7th St (and beyond) would be, or becoming, a really special backdrop to the more modern projects and highrises north, with a Union Station project that integrated all forms of rail with adjacent Greyhound tower + hub, urban park (with a local monument/attraction like the Pin) + bike hub, inner city streetcar, mixed use apartments, a downtown public College (not the big 3), etc. at the center of it all. Take away the jails and courts that front Jackson, and you would have one of the largest cities' hub of City, State, and County operations a block away, with the Suns and Diamondbacks anchoring the opposite end.

Unfortunately, the newest jail ended any chance at successful development near the Union Station area. As beautiful as the Chambers building is, as happy as I am that the other depot was saved during the garage construction, etc.., there is simply no progressive development opportunity when your neighbor is a prison, later added to by the county Sheriff's HQ. The remaining hope was wasted when the 2 courts towers (new and reno'd) totally ignored their Jackson Street frontage and losing the last chance to produce somewhat of a safe-looking area to disguise the jail.

The eastern side's shot looks to be gone, too. Somehow, despite it working in every other city, nothing ever took off to connect the sports venues, and with most of the warehouses that exited 10 years ago gone or converted into private, 9-5 businesses, I don't see any potential in the area except for places like the Duce which will have to be car-dependent.

[Obadno]

This is a good article, for a long time there has been a misconception that Phoenix schools are "bad" because Arizona has low expenditure per student as a matter of state spending.

This is the number that is used when claiming if a state is good or bad with education, As stated MANY MANY times, the correlation between spending per pupil and actual performance DOES NOT EXIST. The single most important driver of educational performance of local schools is the local community the School exists in. If those residence place a high importance on education, the students perform better. This correlates very well with wealth distribution.

Why??? Because "shockingly" communities with high crime and poverty have a combination of people who do not care about education culturally and cannot care about education as a matter of survival and immediate needs like eating and not being shot/arrested are more important than reading the old man and the sea.

If you want to fix schools, fix the community, improve poverty and crime rates. That is the only way, throwing more money into teacher salaries or facilities will never result in improved performance.

Now for the article:


Phoenix in general actually places pretty high in % of top rated school for the population. We rank 13th overall which aligns perfectly with our place as a metro like most do and we score higher than places I have heard people claim have better education when it simply is not true. Some good charts in here:

https://www.rentcafe.com/blog/rental-mar...-zip-codes-in-the-30-largest-u-s-cities/

And a local publications highlights for the Phoenix area:

• Phoenix’s 85048 really stands out. Here we identified 11 top-rated schools, the highest number in any ZIP code in the country.

• At $1,219, the cost of renting in the area is expectedly higher than average, considering our reference point of $950 – the average rent across areas without an 8 or above rated school.

• Similarly, in ZIP code 85085, where all four schools are top rated, average rent prices clock in at $1,238.

• The more central ZIP code 85004 registers the highest rent costs in Phoenix, $1,727, with adjacent ZIP code 85003 close behind, with costs of $1,595. However, both of these ZIP codes only have one top rated school.

• Across the city, there are 47 great schools, accounting for 18% of the city’s total. 12 other large cities have a similar or higher share.

• At a national level, of the 382 ZIP codes with top-rated schools where rent data was available, 45% are priced lower than those without, and 55% are priced above.

Best urban zip codes for top-rated schools
Analyzing each city at the zip code level, 85048 in Phoenix ranks first with the most top-rated schools, with 11. 85048 includes part of Ahwatukee Foothills. Following is San Diego zip code 92129, in the Rancho Peñasquitos area, all of its 10 schools being top-rated, and Brooklyn’s 11215, Park Slope/Gowanus, with 9 highly-rated schools.

85048 (my home zip code) has the benefit of both Kyrene district elementary schools, two of the best public high schools in the area (Desert Vista/Mountain Point) and a number of private schools like Basis and Horizon. I am not surprised that Ahwatukee is in the top for education by zip code. Although I am surprised it made #1 for this study.

[Obadno]

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news...-millennials-to-live-in.html#g/456421/13

Funny thing from PBJ, they have a list of Top 25 neighborhoods for millennials. In general I agree but it declares "area feel" as rural/suburban/urban.

It says Central City, Tempe and Camelback east are "suburban" but Alhambra and Encanto are Urban.

um... what?

[TJPHXskyscraperfan]

Originally Posted by Obadno

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news...-millennials-to-live-in.html#g/456421/13

Funny thing from PBJ, they have a list of Top 25 neighborhoods for millennials. In general I agree but it declares "area feel" as rural/suburban/urban.

It says Central City, Tempe and Camelback east are "suburban" but Alhambra and Encanto are Urban.

um... what?

Where did they get that information from? Central City with a picture of downtown is Suburban????? And average rent is $782!???? I wish!!!!!! Who the heck wrote that dumb article

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I still don’t see the beauty in Union Station the way Talton does. To me, the stucco walls and tile roof resemble a thousand suburban subdivisions.

I think you're missing the fact that not all stucco is the same. I don't think Union Station has the horrendous "skip trowel" (maybe it's called something else) stucco that was prevalent in the 80s/90s in subdivisions all over the city (and which covered up tons of historic brick houses and buildings). Stucco has been used forever and the "good"/historic style is either smooth/plaster or can even be very highly raised and bumpy.

I don't mind the stucco on union station and actually really like the kind of spanish or mission style architecture with the curvilinear parapets and such. Now, it may not be as great as a brick or block historic building could be, but that's OK.

(p.s. I didn't read the Talton article you reference and I in no way support that guy )

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by PHX31

I think you're missing the fact that not all stucco is the same. I don't think Union Station has the horrendous "skip trowel" (maybe it's called something else) stucco that was prevalent in the 80s/90s in subdivisions all over the city (and which covered up tons of historic brick houses and buildings). Stucco has been used forever and the "good"/historic style is either smooth/plaster or can even be very highly raised and bumpy.

I don't mind the stucco on union station and actually really like the kind of spanish or mission style architecture with the curvilinear parapets and such. Now, it may not be as great as a brick or block historic building could be, but that's OK.

(p.s. I didn't read the Talton article you reference and I in no way support that guy )

I've never really looked at Union Station up close since it's behind a chain-link fence and barbed wire. Perhaps a guided tour could give me an appreciation for the differences in stucco. I tend to associate every instance of stucco with the contemporary usage that has ruined it for me, but there are no doubt nuances I don't fully appreciate.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I've never really looked at Union Station up close since it's behind a chain-link fence and barbed wire. Perhaps a guided tour could give me an appreciation for the differences in stucco. I tend to associate every instance of stucco with the contemporary usage that has ruined it for me, but there are no doubt nuances I don't fully appreciate.

It's certainly not as grand as some cities' stations like Salt Lake City, Denver, Portland, and Seattle... but I'd say it's on par with Los Angeles and better than Tucson's. Again, the mission style architecture is really cool. It is certainly in the most dire condition out of all of them, though. Looking back through historic photos makes it look much nicer.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by Obadno

85048 (my home zip code) has the benefit of both Kyrene district elementary schools, two of the best public high schools in the area (Desert Vista/Mountain Point) and a number of private schools like Basis and Horizon. I am not surprised that Ahwatukee is in the top for education by zip code. Although I am surprised it made #1 for this study.

I'm a product of both Kyrene (Akimel) and Tempe Union High School District (Desert Vista) schools. If anything, bifurcated school districts are a waste of time and resources. My freshman year at Desert Vista was spent listening to teachers complaining about most of my classmates not having properly learned what we should have before entering high school. I doubt unified school districts (Chandler, Mesa, Scottsdale) have the same issues with teaching curriculums to nearly the same extent.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

I'm a product of both Kyrene (Akimel) and Tempe Union High School District (Desert Vista) schools. If anything, bifurcated school districts are a waste of time and resources. My freshman year at Desert Vista was spent listening to teachers complaining about most of my classmates not having properly learned what we should have before entering high school. I doubt unified school districts (Chandler, Mesa, Scottsdale) have the same issues with teaching curriculums to nearly the same extent.

That is a cool anecdote but doesn't add anything to the discussion. So thank you I guess.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Figure out the subtext and stop being deliberately obtuse and defensive.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Figure out the subtext and stop being deliberately obtuse and defensive.

The subtext that you didnt like your schooling? Yeah we got that. and as I said its irrelevant.

[Obadno]

As Toll Brothers wastes everyone time landbanking two huge prime lots in Midtown (Thomas and Central & Indian School and Central) they have no problem building suburban houses along the 303.

Are they just land-banking downtown? Or do they ever intend to build anything?

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news...-moves-forward-on-800-acre-surprise.html

Toll Brothers Inc. is moving dirt in Surprise for an 800-acre community it has named Sterling Grove.

Construction of 14 model homes can be seen by drivers on Loop 303 in the West Valley, said Bob Flaherty, Arizona division president for Horsham, Pennsylvania-based Toll Brothers (NYSE: TOL).

The company will invest about $250 million to develop Sterling Grove, Flaherty said, which is within the 3,200-acre Prasada master-planned community being developed by a partnership composed of Salt Lake City-based Suburban Land Reserve Inc., Macerich Development, WDP Partners and RED Development. That entire community is on both sides of Loop 303, between Greenway Road and Peoria Avenue.

"The entry has been graded and we're getting ready to break ground on the garden gate," he said. "We're starting to fill our first lakes with water out there, and the golf course has been completely shaped. All of this is really coming together."

The semi-private golf club — also named Sterling Grove — will be managed by Scottsdale-based Troon, the world's largest golf management company providing services at more than 460 locations around the globe.

The golf club will become an exclusive private club reserved for members and their guests, but it will be open to daily-fee and unaccompanied non-member play when the course opens in the winter of 2020 as the community builds out.

Flaherty said everything is on track to begin home sales in January 2020.

"The West Valley is a great growth market right now," Flaherty said. "It's exploding with new business, new homes, commercial. It really has come into its own as a robust place to work and live."

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by Obadno

The subtext that you didnt like your schooling? Yeah we got that. and as I said its irrelevant.

Quit being an ass. It has nothing to do with whether I liked my schooling. You're saying its irrelevant doesn't make it so. I attended those fucking schools, my brother attended those fucking schools and my mother worked for both fucking school districts. They are ineffective in their educational delivery due to the fact that some Arizona school districts have bizarre and unnecessary splits between grades K-8 and 9-12 which results in ineffective delivery of education and a disconnect in communication due to the districts fighting each other for resources instead of working together, as unified districts, to provide a more comprehensive curriculum to the students they're supposed to serve. I question the validity of any ranking of education that doesn't take those factors into consideration.

Was the whole point of posting that article (from rentcafe?) to boast that you live in Ahwatukee? Good for you, I guess? The public schools there are good, but they could be a hell of a lot better if they weren't divided into elementary and high school districts, each of whom are fighting each other for state money and resources instead of working together as one.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Quit being an ass. It has nothing to do with whether I liked my schooling. You're saying its irrelevant doesn't make it so. I attended those fucking schools, my brother attended those fucking schools and my mother worked for both fucking school districts. They are ineffective in their educational delivery due to the fact that some Arizona school districts have bizarre and unnecessary splits between grades K-8 and 9-12 which results in ineffective delivery of education and a disconnect in communication due to the districts fighting each other for resources instead of working together, as unified districts, to provide a more comprehensive curriculum to the students they're supposed to serve. I question the validity of any ranking of education that doesn't take those factors into consideration.

Was the whole point of posting that article (from rentcafe?) to boast that you live in Ahwatukee? Good for you, I guess? The public schools there are good, but they could be a hell of a lot better if they weren't divided into elementary and high school districts, each of whom are fighting each other for state money and resources instead of working together as one.

I dont live in Ahwatukee, I was talking about schools, and those schools are regularly ranked highly in many different studies not just rent cafe.

The point of my post was to address the misconception that Arizona has bad schools because it doesn't spend a bunch of money per Pupil

Once again your personal feelings about those schools have nothing to do with actual results of those schools. Sorry you didn't enjoy it but that is irrelevant because the results speak for themselves and your anecdote, weather accurate or colored by your emotional feelings, has no impact on the point of the story or my post.

I at no point was an ass to you. Whats with the outburst bud?

[Buckeye Native 001]

The outburst was unnecessary and unwarranted on my part. I'm sorry.

Having lived/grown up in that zip code, I feel very strongly that the lack of cohesion between districts is denying parents (and students...) who reside in that area a comprehensive curriculum that would better serve its residents. There's been several attempts to rectify that (I know I voted for unification in at least one of the attempts but the other might've been before I turned 18), but those efforts have failed every time.

[downtownphxguy12]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

The outburst was unnecessary and unwarranted on my part. I'm sorry.

Having lived/grown up in that zip code, I feel very strongly that the lack of cohesion between districts is denying parents (and students...) who reside in that area a comprehensive curriculum that would better serve its residents. There's been several attempts to rectify that (I know I voted for unification in at least one of the attempts but the other might've been before I turned 18), but those efforts have failed every time.

Don't be hard on yourself, I thought "That is a cool anecdote but doesn't add anything to the discussion. So thank you I guess." was a douchey comment.

[Mr.RE]

Originally Posted by Obadno

As Toll Brothers wastes everyone time landbanking two huge prime lots in Midtown (Thomas and Central & Indian School and Central) they have no problem building suburban houses along the 303.

Are they just land-banking downtown? Or do they ever intend to build anything?

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news...-moves-forward-on-800-acre-surprise.html

I completely agree. I drive by both sites often and nothing but tumbleweeds to be seen. Its their first multifamily projects as a company in AZ they probably need more time than other developers to get their arms around the project. Would not be surprised if they are facing budget or coordination issues which is causing a delay.

Everyone wants to throw their hat in the ring these days, but not all of them know how to ride a bull.

[biggus diggus]

Toll Brothers told everyone they were building luxury condos on that same lot in 2005. They aren't going to do a thing any time soon but it might happen.

They've historically been a pretty risk averse developer, the community they are building at the west end of Fountain Hills took years to get going. Just about the time when people had given up hope dirt started moving. You don't become a Fortune 500 home builder unless you are careful with your investments.