Transit Fantasies

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

24/7 service will allow nightbus resources to be reallocated to providing more frequent service on some routes or making new routes. 24 hour service on the Expo line with a nightbus from White Rock to Langley via Surrey Central and Guildford would be a start, as well as shortened N17 and maybe an hourly service to PoCo and maybe even Maple Ridge.

But I'll save this for the fantasy thread.

So I'll reply to you here

We don't have 24/7 Skytrain service as they do maintenance at night. Other areas that have more night service do it by deferring maintenance, which is something we really don't want (garbage and fire being two common outcomes of deferred maintenance).

I would love if they extended the Expo Line by an hour at night, with trains every 15 mins (so an additional 4 trains). Even having every other train end at Edmonds (the OMC is just beyond that) would be better than now. Sadly I don't see it happening.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Sheba

So I'll reply to you here

We don't have 24/7 Skytrain service as they do maintenance at night. Other areas that have more night service do it by deferring maintenance, which is something we really don't want (garbage and fire being two common outcomes of deferred maintenance).

I would love if they extended the Expo Line by an hour at night, with trains every 15 mins (so an additional 4 trains). Even having every other train end at Edmonds (the OMC is just beyond that) would be better than now. Sadly I don't see it happening.

I am aware of the maintenance, which is why I said in a previous post that I would like express tracks like they have in the NYC Subway.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I am aware of the maintenance, which is why I said in a previous post that I would like express tracks like they have in the NYC Subway.

Except that the New York Subway is kinda falling apart right now, which is why the MTA is cutting 24-hour service. There's a point where you can only have service OR maintenance, not both - especially with North America's tiny-assed transit budgets.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I am aware of the maintenance, which is why I said in a previous post that I would like express tracks like they have in the NYC Subway.

In other words you want to double the Expo Line. We don't have Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk footing the bill for this - and even then I'd suspect they'd build a new line elsewhere instead.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

There's a point where you can only have service OR maintenance, not both - especially with North America's tiny-assed transit budgets.

Exactly

[trofirhen]

What about about Mike Harcourt's idea of a double-tunnel line from Lougheed Mall to UBC (maybe stopping at Broadway-City Hall) to provide high-speed express service east-west?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

What about about Mike Harcourt's idea of a double-tunnel line from Lougheed Mall to UBC (maybe stopping at Broadway-City Hall) to provide high-speed express service east-west?

Even if Harcourt actually has a plan to get TransLink another $6-7 billion right now (and isn't just dreaming out loud like Vanderzalm and McCallum), which stations would an express route use, and how effective would it be when its ROW ends before VCC?

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

What about about Mike Harcourt's idea of a double-tunnel line from Lougheed Mall to UBC (maybe stopping at Broadway-City Hall) to provide high-speed express service east-west?

Ever since that idea was pitched I've suspected that it would probably be more effective to have the *express* route doing B-line stops and the additional service be a more *local* stopping pattern

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Even if Harcourt actually has a plan to get TransLink another $6-7 billion right now (and isn't just dreaming out loud like Vanderzalm and McCallum), which stations would an express route use, and how effective would it be when its ROW ends before VCC?

Plus do we really need a Skytrain line that only makes a few stops? The system is pretty express already - having a line that skips most of the stops isn't going to make it twice as fast as the current line.

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Ever since that idea was pitched I've suspected that it would probably be more effective to have the *express* route doing B-line stops and the additional service be a more *local* stopping pattern

As opposed to the Skytrain being the express route, then the B-Line being the next step down and then local buses. Why do we need a 'super express' Skytrain? I'd much rather see those magical billions of dollars spent on new Skytrain lines, more B-Lines and beefed up local service (like maybe to something closer to CoV levels for a lot more of the region).

[scottN]

If you wanted to speed up skytrain, you could have alternating trains skip alternating stops in some locations. For example:

train A stops at Lake City, skips Sperling
train B skips Lake City, stops at Sperling
repeat

train B nearly catches up to train A while train A is stopped at Lake City. From Lake City to Sperling they travel relatively close together. Then at Sperling train B stops while train A continues through, restoring the normal headway between trains.

For this to work at low headways, the paired stops would have to be consecutive. Obviously you only want to do it with stops where the ratio of boardings to through traffic is low. Potential station skipping pairs:


Lake City / Sperling
Rupert / Renfrew or Rupert / Gilmore
Inlet Centre / Moody Centre
29th Ave / Nanaimo
Sea Island / Templeton
Macdonald / Alma (UBC extension)

Each pair would save about 1 minute of travel time for through passengers at the expense of longer waiting times for users of the skipped stations.

[Migrant_Coconut]

There's usually three problems with skip-stop - increased crowding, screwier timetables (e.g. Train A skipping Gilmore is going faster than usual but can't overtake Train B at Brentwood, so it has to leave later), and passenger confusion.

With the renovations, the major stations are probably large enough to handle passengers waiting for the "other" train, but two of the big selling points of the SkyTrain are short, consistent headways and relative user-friendliness. May or may not work out.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Plus do we really need a Skytrain line that only makes a few stops? The system is pretty express already - having a line that skips most of the stops isn't going to make it twice as fast as the current line.

I could see the use of a line that goes Waterfront, blah blah blah, Surrey to relieve the Expo in the distant future, but that's more of a job for commuter or high speed rail, not light metro.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Plus do we really need a Skytrain line that only makes a few stops? The system is pretty express already - having a line that skips most of the stops isn't going to make it twice as fast as the current line.

As opposed to the Skytrain being the express route, then the B-Line being the next step down and then local buses. Why do we need a 'super express' Skytrain? I'd much rather see those magical billions of dollars spent on new Skytrain lines, more B-Lines and beefed up local service (like maybe to something closer to CoV levels for a lot more of the region).

Agreed. I was just mentioning what Mike Harcourt had said

[Tvisforme]

One issue with a North Shore Skytrain: is there room for an elevated line along Marine Drive? It's not that wide of a road, with no extra space in the centre. The ongoing redevelopment of properties along Marine in the North Vans also means that there are now a lot of residential projects only a sidewalk's width from the roadway and right at Skytrain height. It's a given that West Vancouver will flip at the idea of an elevated guideway, but support may be limited for anything but a tunnel in large parts of the North Vancouvers as well.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

One issue with a North Shore Skytrain: is there room for an elevated line along Marine Drive? It's not that wide of a road, with no extra space in the centre. The ongoing redevelopment of properties along Marine in the North Vans also means that there are now a lot of residential projects only a sidewalk's width from the roadway and right at Skytrain height. It's a given that West Vancouver will flip at the idea of an elevated guideway, but support may be limited for anything but a tunnel in large parts of the North Vancouvers as well.

You must have grown up there, too!! Yes, most of the North Shore east-west skytrain would need to be tunnelled for all the reasons you mentioned.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Eh, screw it, I'll just bump waves' solution again.

Haha. Thanks for the bump, I see I have missed some action on here. My solution before was just a guess at the underwater topography (bathymetry) of the inlet, and since then, I have been working to complete a full bathymetric map of Burrard Inlet. I am very happy to say I am finally done. I have done some work at some crossing options but I'm not finished yet; it's coming soon though

Here are the maps in small size (click the link below it to see a full size that you can zoom into). Each shade of colour is a 5m contour and the topo lines are 1m contours.


Full size Source: my profile on Imgur


Full size Source: my profile on Imgur


Full size Source: my profile on Imgur

If you want to do your own your own designs and profiles on top of the topo here are the download links to the Cad files:

Full Inlet Bathymetry and reduced LIDAR above sea-level: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AjWWltw_HSwziLcelq48RitiwTrq3Q

Bathymetry only: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AjWWltw_HSwziLcb6-YiUMFf2FXYbA

I spent $5 on an FOI request to see if the Port of Vancouver would give me any formal bathymetry they had but they denied my request - what you see here took me many hours of researching marine maps and various small snippets of bathymetry data and then digitizing by hand.

[Migrant_Coconut]

A grateful forum thanks you. So the depressions are tidal scour, that figures.

[scryer]

Honestly, Waves, you should be given an award for "post of the year" with the topographic analyses. Being able to educate a unify a forum that (for the most part) disagrees with each other left and right, with straight-up knowledge is certainly a feat to commended on .

I, too have updated my transit fantasy based on your work.

[Tvisforme]

This might be a silly question, but is it possible (from an engineering perspective) to have a "bridge" underwater to help level out the path across Burrard Inlet? As in, tunnel down to an appropriate depth and then have an elevated platform supporting the enclosed tracks across the deepest portion of the direct route from Waterfront to Lonsdale Quay? Or would the risk be too great if, for example, a ship was dragging anchor?

[waves]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

This might be a silly question, but is it possible (from an engineering perspective) to have a "bridge" underwater to help level out the path across Burrard Inlet? As in, tunnel down to an appropriate depth and then have an elevated platform supporting the enclosed tracks across the deepest portion of the direct route from Waterfront to Lonsdale Quay? Or would the risk be too great if, for example, a ship was dragging anchor?

I think there are examples of floating underwater tunnels although they are not many. I imagine that a ship dragging an anchor would be very bad.

[scottN]

Originally Posted by waves

I think there are examples of floating underwater tunnels although they are not many. I imagine that a ship dragging an anchor would be very bad.

Looks like Norway is currently planning to build the first one, but not in an active harbour.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-...uild-submerged-floating-tunnel-1.5009576

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by waves

I think there are examples of floating underwater tunnels although they are not many. I imagine that a ship dragging an anchor would be very bad.

I'd also imagine the unlikely event of a train derailment would rupture the tunnel.