VIA Rail network developments

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Interestingly, Pierre Poilievre came to my door a few months ago (he is my MP). I asked him about HFR and he had no idea what I was talking about. All he knew about was the old HSR plan (from Windsor to Quebec City) that VIA had previously proposed. When I gave him the Coles Notes version of the plan, he seemed interested (he wanted to get cars off the road and not have it compete with airlines).

Did you ask why he didn’t want it competing with airlines?

And how does an Ottawa area MP not know about this and how transformative it would be?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Did you ask why he didn’t want it competing with airlines?

No I didn't. I expect is is as J.OT13 said and it is because politicians are lobbied by airlines. It also doesn't look good having a subsidized crown corporation compete head to head with private industry.

In general I agree with this. The airlines wouldn't just let VIA Rail take over a portion of their market but would try to compete head to head with a price war. This would be much more harmful to VIA than it would be to the airlines as service between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal is only a small percentage of the airlines revenue but it is a huge percentage of VIA's revenue.

Competing with driving doesn't have that same effect. A reduction in the number of people driving between those cities would have a minuscule effect on auto sales and an extremely small effect on gasoline sales.

Trying to compete with driving rather than flying makes economic sense for VIA as well. As previously mentioned, on pg 13 of the Winter 2016 issue of Interchange it says, "87 per cent of travel between Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal is by car, six per cent is by plane and five per cent is by train."

If VIA were to focus on competing with the airlines (by prioritizing shorter travel times at the cost of higher fares*) and was able to take 50% of the airlines market share (a very ambitions and difficult feat), VIA's market share would only grow by 60% (from 5% to 8%).

However, by focusing on competing with those who drive (by keeping fares low and improving travel times only slightly*) and was only able to draw 10% of those who currently drive onto the train (a reasonable objective), they would more than double their market share (from 5% to almost 14%).

* both would also have improved reliability and frequency compared to today.

And how does an Ottawa area MP not know about this and how transformative it would be?

Possibly because he is more focused on slashing spending so that he can provide tax cuts?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And how does an Ottawa area MP not know about this and how transformative it would be?

If you don’t follow transportation forums on the internet or read the annual article in the Toronto Star there is almost no chance you would know about this proposal, per Via’s pointless secrecy policy. If you google “via rail” the first reference is on page 3 (the Star’s annual article).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If you don’t follow transportation forums on the internet or read the annual article in the Toronto Star there is almost no chance you would know about this proposal, per Via’s pointless secrecy policy. If you google “via rail” the first reference is on page 3 (the Star’s annual article).

You're giving him too much credit. Any Federal Politician between Québec City and Toronto should know about this. Poilievre is completely unaware of anything outside Liberal scandals and Conservative policies. The guy is nothing but a puppet who is told what to know, what to think and what to say by the PCs.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

You're giving him too much credit. Any Federal Politician between Québec City and Toronto should know about this. Poilievre is completely unaware of anything outside Liberal scandals and Conservative policies. The guy is nothing but a puppet who is told what to know, what to think and what to say by the PCs.

If Roger walked up to another MP do you think he would have gotten a different familiarity?

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If Roger walked up to another MP do you think he would have gotten a different familiarity?

Good Day.

I truely would like to think so.
And that's not just any kind of partisanship.... I would like to think several CPC MPs are as aware as any of several LPC MPs.
No... my opinion is (and has been for a very long time) that PP is just the latest in a very long line of CPC, mean-spirited, no-nothing but the attack-line, yelping, attack dogs.
To be severely dismissed and ignored at all times.
Really. I mean, it is part and parcel of an MP's job to keep passing familiarity with stuff like this - at least know of it - not have it be a total unknown.
It has been around long enough.

<sigh>

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Really. I mean, it is part and parcel of an MP's job to keep passing familiarity with stuff like this - at least know of it - not have it be a total unknown.
It has been around long enough.

<sigh>

Well, if I ever bump into an MP I will test your hypothesis. Generally I think MPs are familiar with issues before Parliament, issues their constituents complain about and a few top line issues. A five year old proposal that is still at the bureaucrat discussion phase, has almost no information in the public domain and has received almost no media attention is not something that strikes me as being top of mind for an MP of any party. The train station is in David Mcguinty’s riding and his website makes no mention of this project. Same with Mona Fortier.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If you don’t follow transportation forums on the internet or read the annual article in the Toronto Star there is almost no chance you would know about this proposal, per Via’s pointless secrecy policy. If you google “via rail” the first reference is on page 3 (the Star’s annual article).

I wouldn’t blame VIA as much as our — political culture that produces politicians like these. How do you advocate for your community if you aren’t aware of tangential ideas, policies, programs, etc.? And he’s not a regular Joe. He’s an MP who has staff to do research for him. Useless tools like that are why we can’t have serious policy discussions in this country.

Is it really that hard for a staffer to put in something about VIA HFR in his notes on Ottawa-area transportation ideas?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I wouldn’t blame VIA as much as our — political culture that produces politicians like these. How do you advocate for your community if you aren’t aware of tangential ideas, policies, programs, etc.? And he’s not a regular Joe. He’s an MP who has staff to do research for him. Useless tools like that are why we can’t have serious policy discussions in this country.

Is it really that hard for a staffer to put in something about VIA HFR in his notes on Ottawa-area transportation ideas?

Backbench and opposition MPs don’t really have research or policy staff (or interns).

http://www.revparl.ca/english/issue.asp?param=227&art=1692

The most likely way an MP would be informed about an issue is if it were studied by the Transport Committee, which does not seem to have occurred (at least not in the current session of Parliament).

https://www.ourcommons.ca/Committees/en/TRAN/Meetings

[GoTrans]

According to the Globe and Mail it looks like Via Rail's HFR is gaining traction but we will have to wait until tomorrow to be sure. It It would be good if part of it was electrified as a pilot project so that eventually all the major rail lines in Canada could be electrified to decrease greenhouse gases. Will the old CP line between Ottawa and Rigaud be used or will the existing ex-CN line through Alexandria remain the preferred route. Which ever line provides the fastest and most reliable access to Central Station should be the one that is used. Between deciding which route and the status of the Mount Royal tunnel there are some major decisions that need to be made before anything is finalized. This is one of the last chances to do it right in the Montreal area at a reasonable cost.

Infrastructure Bank to support Via Rail’s expansion plans through Quebec and Ontario
BILL CURRY
OTTAWA
PUBLISHED 25 MINUTES AGO
UPDATED JUNE 24, 2019
2 COMMENTS
On the eve of a federal election and after years of study, the Liberal government will announce Tuesday that it is supporting Via Rail’s multi-billion dollar plan to build a new rail line exclusively for passengers through Quebec and Ontario.

A government source confirmed to The Globe and Mail that Tuesday’s announcements in Trois-Rivières, Queb., and Peterborough, Ont., will reveal that the Canada Infrastructure Bank is backing the ambitious project.

The plan calls for what is known as high-frequency rail, or HFR. VIA rail’s initial proposal was to build an exclusive rail line from Montreal to Toronto through Ottawa and Peterborough. The Liberal government’s 2016 budget provided money to study the idea and to consider expanding it to the entire Quebec City to Windsor corridor.

Since then, Transport Canada has continued to study the business plan and the infrastructure bank was asked to review the project. VIA Rail has been working with the communities along the proposed line – such as Trois-Rivières and Smiths Falls – to endorse the plan.

Via’s pitch is that its current system regularly faces delays that are outside of its control because it operates on freight lines primarily owned by CN, which gives priority to freight traffic. Running trains on a Via-owed dedicated passenger rail line would, according to Via, slice travel times by a quarter and allow for trains to arrive on time more than 95 per cent of the time.

Critics of the plan have questioned why it is based on traditional passenger trains – with top speeds of about 177 km/hr - rather than the full high-speed passenger trains that are common in Europe and Asia, where trains operate at 250 km/hr or more.

Concern has also been expressed over the fact that the proposed new line from Montreal to Toronto takes the less direct route through Ottawa and bypasses the many cities and towns along the north shore of Lake Ontario. Via’s plan does propose to continue serving those communities on the southern CN line by using Kingston as a hub station to better schedule the passenger trains that will continue operating on a shared line with freight.

The stretch from Ottawa to Peterborough would involve reviving a long-abandoned rail line that has since been converted into a recreational trail. An existing CP rail line from Peterborough to Toronto would likely have to be purchased and refurbished as part of Via’s project.

The infrastructure bank is a new, arm’s length entity created by the Liberal government with a $35-billion budget to support revenue-generating infrastructure projects that are in the public interest. To date, the bank has only agreed to support two projects: Montreal’s REM commuter light rail line and the Greater Toronto Area’s GO Transit plan for Regional Express Rail.

The fact that Transport Minister Marc Garneau and Infrastructure Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne will make the announcement in Trois-Rivieres means the announcement will include extending the line as far East as Quebec City along the north shore of the St. Lawrence River. A notice for the announcement, posted Monday, indicates that Canada Infrastructure Bank President and Chief Executive Officer, Pierre Lavallée, will be with the ministers to “make an announcement related to the advancement of VIA Rail Canada’s proposal for High Frequency Rail in the Quebec City- Toronto Corridor.”

International Development Minister Maryam Monsef is scheduled to make a similar announcement at the same time in Peterborough, which is in her riding.

Whether the line may eventually go further west than Toronto is not immediately clear. Via’s map proposals for HFR had not focused on that segment, in part because the former Liberal government in Ontario had proposed a full high speed rail line from Toronto to London, and then Windsor in a second stage. The new Progressive Conservative government’s 2019 budget said it was pausing that project while it worked on reviewing its southwestern transportation options. The budget promised an update in the fall.

Via’s proposal was initially estimated to cost at least $4-billion, plus an additional $2-billion if the lines were built to run trains on electric power. No public update on the projected costs has been released in recent years while the project was subjected to behind-the-scenes scrutiny.

[Truenorth00]

Here's hoping this isn't just an election stunt and survives.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Here's hoping this isn't just an election stunt and survives.

My prediction is it won't. This is going to die in committee just like HSR. And if it doesn't, the Scheer government will kill it.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Here's hoping this isn't just an election stunt and survives.

The fact that this is going to be through the infrastructure bank already offers it a certain amount of protection from political interference down the road. Not to say it is a done deal and shovels will be in the ground in before we know it, but this is already further ahead relative to every single other large scale project proposing new, dedicated infrastructure for VIA, and at a fraction of the cost of those other proposals, I feel like this could be the real deal.

Fingers crossed. This would be a real turning point for the future of intercity rail in the corridor...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

The fact that this is going to be through the infrastructure bank already offers it a certain amount of protection from political interference down the road.

At this stage, I'm be more reassured if it wasn't undertaken through the bank. The CIB is underperforming expectations massively. Before this, they had two projects. Both were already under construction and funded by other entities (REM and GO RER). Both are projects that would have happened without the CIB. That's the sum of accomplishments in over 2 years.

I'm not sure the CIB would survive a change in government. Even though the model lines up ideologically with conservative philosophy. And I'm not sure anyone would notice if it were gone. They've failed to do what they said they would: bring in private sector and institutional capital to fund new projects by leveraging planned public sector spending.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

At this stage, I'm be more reassured of it wasn't through the bank. The CIB is underperforming expectations massively. Before this, they had two projects. Both were already under construction and funded by other entities (REM and GO RER).

I'm not sure the CIB would survive a change in government. Even though the model lines up ideologically with conservatives.

I know there is lots of reason to fear what a change in government might bring. But, I would also note that when it happened in Ontario, it didn't really affect transit investments all that much.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that intercity rail has reached the same level of mainstream support that local transit has. There is however a slow, continually evolving, cultural shift towards viewing those kinds of projects as critical to the growth and health of Canadian cities. I wont speculate on what the election outcome will be, and what that may or may not mean for the project (no one can predict or know that at this point). It has a real chance. And if it doesn't happen this time, it wont be long for its moment in the sun to come.

[Truenorth00]

Looks like it’s not as big a deal as is being made out:

...Canada Infrastructure Bank is supporting the ambitious project in the form of millions of dollars for additional study on how to “de-risk” the project.

So this is another stunt like the Ontario Liberals pulled before the provincial election, saying they were committing to building HSR on the Toronto-Kitchener-London corridor.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

Here's the coverage : Ottawa Citizen and CBC , both from Canadian Press of 25 June 2019 :

https://ottawacitizen.com/pmn/news-pmn/c...wcm/99121720-5b31-4a85-8238-69b3f83866bf

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/windsor-quebec-via-rail-1.5188770

Infrastructure bank gives Via $71M for work on multibillion-dollar project
THE CANADIAN PRESS Updated: June 25, 2019

OTTAWA — A federal infrastructure agency is providing $71 million to Via Rail to help it in its plan to build dedicated tracks for faster, more frequent service in Ontario and Quebec.

The details unveiled today show that some of the money will fund work to make sure that Via trains can seamlessly move between any new dedicated tracks and local transit systems in Montreal and Toronto.

For Montreal, that includes running Via trains along the electric-rail system under construction, known best by its French acronym R.E.M., which the Canada Infrastructure Bank is also financing.

The rail company wants to build a multibillion-dollar new network of dedicated passenger-rail lines so its trains will no longer have to yield to freight trains on borrowed tracks.

The infrastructure bank money will be largely used for environmental assessment, consultations with Indigenous communities, and a technical and financial review to help the government make a final funding decision.

The high-frequency rail project is expected to cost $4 billion and Via Rail is exploring ways to have a private investor pick up some of the costs.

FWIW !

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Here's the coverage : Ottawa Citizen and CBC , both from Canadian Press of 25 June 2019 :

https://ottawacitizen.com/pmn/news-pmn/c...wcm/99121720-5b31-4a85-8238-69b3f83866bf

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/windsor-quebec-via-rail-1.5188770

FWIW !

I am going to say that this is pretty good news. Off the top of my head this seems to easily be the biggest/most expensive study undertaken on expanding intercity rail in the corridor.

Probably the key line that stood out to me is that it will look at how to operate on local systems in Toronto and Montreal, but most importantly, on the new REM lines. Looking at a few other articles during a Google search, it seems the animosity between the REM and VIA HFR project is largely gone and they will share a tunnel (which will probably lead to an upgraded tunnel in the not too distant future).

I know this isn't the announcement a lot of people probably wanted. But this planning had to be done anyways, so it is a logical next step which also means that once it is complete it is quite easy get underway (so even if an anti-progressive Conservative government gets in after the next election, the government after that can easily kick start the project right away).

[Truenorth00]

I will say this is terrible news.

They are committing $71 million to do a study on the eve of an election. If the government changes, how sure are we that the bank and this study survive till the end of 2020 when the study will be wrapped up? Heck, there's not even an environmental assessment included in the study. That will come after this study. So in the best case scenario of the Liberals winning, no shovels in the ground for the next term.

This is the Liberals way of politely refusing to move HFR forward. Just commit to yet another rail study. Rick Mercer's joke is getting old...

[lrt's friend]

Here is what the Globe and Mail says

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics...est-in-via-rails-planned-expansion-says/

“This is far more than a study,” Mr. Lavallée said in an interview Tuesday. “I think it’s important to make the difference between studies and detailed planning and pre-procurement activities. This is a lot more detail, a lot more specific. This is what leads to being able to call for tenders on construction and having people who perform that work being willing to commit to a certain work package and pricing and so on.”