Rural Commuter Rail

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Didn't they uncover a rail turntable near Bayview? Couldn't that be used in transit infrastructure?

Those are only really useful for rail shops, and even then they aren't really that useful in the modern world.

Walkley Yard is big enough to store and maintain all the heavy rail vehicles this city will see for the next 100 years, probably.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You have overlaid the station over quite a bit of existing infrastructure. Fit if money is no object and fit in a practical sense are different things. If money is no object you might as well put the station downtown, rather than 2-3 km away.

1) "You have overlaid the station over quite a bit of existing infrastructure." Hardly.

2) This is just to show that even as a commuter hub (leaving the Tremblay Station for VIA Rail), there is certainly enough room at Bayview for a line or two coming from Quebec, and a line or two coming from the suburbs.

[J.OT13]

The existing VIA Station configuration wouldn't have enough tracks to serve as a commuter rail hub. How many trains serve the station at Tremblay, maybe 24 throughput the day? For a Commuter Hub at Bayview, we would need a whole lot more tracks.

If we were ever to have a Hub, it would either need to be in an expanded VIA Station at Tremblay, by building new tracks south, expropriating surface parking of the new office buildings or, massive underground infrastructure like Montreal's Central Station. The latter could be achieved (for a very hefty price) at Bayview (great for connection from the airport's new O-Train service) or at Union.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Didn't they uncover a rail turntable near Bayview? Couldn't that be used in transit infrastructure?

We use to have a turntable, or "roundhouse", where Tom Brown Arena sits today, but it is long gone. Even if we still had it, it would not be suitable for modern operations.


http://urbsite.blogspot.com/2012/05/cpr-ottawa-west-roundhouse-remembered.html

Toronto is one of the few places that still has its historic roundhouse and it is home to the Toronto Railway Museum at Roundhouse Park. The CB Tower, Skydome and Ripley's Aquarium form one concentrated tourist area.

[J.OT13]

EDIT: I'll be damned, they did find the roundhouse!!! Well, it's foundations.

https://churcher.crcml.org/circle/Findings_Enginehouses.htm

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

1) "You have overlaid the station over quite a bit of existing infrastructure." Hardly.

The platforms in the picture completely cover the Confederation Line, Albert Street and the ends cover the SJAMP and Somerset St W. Even if you shortened the platforms so that there is only double track going under the latter two, the cost of building bridges to have both Albert St and the Convederation Line cross the station is not going to be trivial.

Could it be done? Sure. However, given that it would take just as long for trains to get to Bayview from the west (and even longer from the east) as it would to get to Tremblay, and Bayview is only marginally closer to downtown than Tremblay, I just don't see how it would be worth the investment.

[Charles5]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Condos even at 65 floors does not make a transit destination. The following are major transit destinations. major shopping centres, major employment area usual only the CBD, major college or university. Not much else.

According to their website, the Trinity Centre at Bayview will have:

Retail 113,182 sq.ft
Office 3,659,944 sq. ft
Residential 918,785 sq.ft. (1241 Units)

So, only about 20% residential, the remainder 80% will be Office and Retail.

By comparison, the Pentagon, the world's largest office building, is about 6.5 M sq ft, of which 3.7M are used as office space. (Almost the same as the proposed Trinity Centre.) 26,000 people work in the Pentagon.

Edit: The amount of office space seems high, but I'm taking the information on the Trinity website at face value. If anyone else has information to the contrary, please let us know.

Edit #2: It appears the Trinity website is off by about a factor of 10, according to OCCheetos post below.

[acottawa]

The Trinity plan seems to change frequently. I would not count on anything anytime soon.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Charles5

According to their website, the Trinity Centre at Bayview will have:

Retail 113,182 sq.ft
Office 3,659,944 sq. ft
Residential 918,785 sq.ft. (1241 Units)

So, only about 20% residential, the remainder 80% will be Office and Retail.

By comparison, the Pentagon, the world's largest office building, is about 6.5 M sq ft, of which 3.7M are used as office space. (Almost the same as the proposed Trinity Centre.) 26,000 people work in the Pentagon.

Edit: The amount of office space seems high, but I'm taking the information on the Trinity website at face value. If anyone else has information to the contrary, please let us know.

I think a decimal point is missing. The last revision of the site plan shows 24 office floors each with 1521.72m^2 of office space.

That comes out to a total of 36665.28m^2, or 394,661 sq ft

[Charles5]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I think a decimal point is missing. The last revision of the site plan shows 24 office floors each with 1521.72m^2 of office space.

That comes out to a total of 36665.28m^2, or 394,661 sq ft

I think you're right. Probably not a decimal point (who worries about a tenth of a square foot), but they've probably added an extra number in there by mistake (eg: a double tap on the 9 or the 4 by accident), or some other error that puts them off by a factor of ten.

[Treplow]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We use to have a turntable, or "roundhouse", where Tom Brown Arena sits today, but it is long gone. Even if we still had it, it would not be suitable for modern operations.


http://urbsite.blogspot.com/2012/05/cpr-ottawa-west-roundhouse-remembered.html

Toronto is one of the few places that still has its historic roundhouse and it is home to the Toronto Railway Museum at Roundhouse Park. The CB Tower, Skydome and Ripley's Aquarium form one concentrated tourist area.

Vancouver has one too, with a subway station named after it (Yaletown-Roundhouse).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Treplow

Vancouver has one too, with a subway station named after it (Yaletown-Roundhouse).

Yes, converted into a community centre. I knew about the station named for it, but wasn't sure if the roundhouse was still there. Quick Google Maps tour and we can find it a block away.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You have overlaid the station over quite a bit of existing infrastructure. Fit if money is no object and fit in a practical sense are different things. If money is no object you might as well put the station downtown, rather than 2-3 km away.

Exactly my thought. If there is going to be a major change to the VIA network (and to a potential commuter/regional NCR rail network), the last thing that should be done is spend what will still be significant amounts of money for an "okay" solution. Yes Tremblay is kind of a rubbish station in terms of where it is located, and I would love to see something more central. But if a new station is the plan, it should be downtown, and it should include a link across the river and provide direct connections with the Gatineau region.

I know lots of people wont like that thought because it doesn't bring more infrastructure sooner. But if your going to redo the rail network, do it right, even if it means waiting a bit.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

Exactly my thought. If there is going to be a major change to the VIA network (and to a potential commuter/regional NCR rail network), the last thing that should be done is spend what will still be significant amounts of money for an "okay" solution. Yes Tremblay is kind of a rubbish station in terms of where it is located, and I would love to see something more central. But if a new station is the plan, it should be downtown, and it should include a link across the river and provide direct connections with the Gatineau region.

I know lots of people wont like that thought because it doesn't bring more infrastructure sooner. But if your going to redo the rail network, do it right, even if it means waiting a bit.

I don't think the Via Rail station will ever be relocated since it has access to the O Train, it is only a few stops from downtown and it has almost a completely grade separated approach to the station. Commuter service is a different story but since some of the lines proposed cross current and future O Train lines many people will transfer to get to locations that are not downtown such as Hunt Club/Riverside, Carleton, Carling, Tunny's Pasture and Algonquin. This means that the volume of people going downtown would be reduced so it may not be that significant to have an additional transfer point at Ottawa Station. What is required is some sort of revenue sharing so that passengers only pay once depending where they are going. This means that a distance based fare will be required which should also be the standard even for city transit.

[Gat-Train]

I don't see why we can't have two long-distance train stations. Montreal has two stations: Gare Central for intercity and commuter trains, as well as Gare Luciene-L'Allier for commuter trains.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I don't think the Via Rail station will ever be relocated since it has access to the O Train, it is only a few stops from downtown and it has almost a completely grade separated approach to the station. Commuter service is a different story but since some of the lines proposed cross current and future O Train lines many people will transfer to get to locations that are not downtown such as Hunt Club/Riverside, Carleton, Carling, Tunny's Pasture and Algonquin. This means that the volume of people going downtown would be reduced so it may not be that significant to have an additional transfer point at Ottawa Station. What is required is some sort of revenue sharing so that passengers only pay once depending where they are going. This means that a distance based fare will be required which should also be the standard even for city transit.

The business case for any kind of relocation, or commuter rail, in the near future has been greatly reduced by the C-Line. Because it will be grade separated, automated (eventually), and operate at reasonable speeds, it can cover reach out pretty much all across Ottawa and offer commuter services. The only sizable commuter sheds that an ever growing C-Line couldn't serve would be places like Carleton Place, Arnprior, Smiths Falls (and even then Smiths Fall could be served through some sort of commuter pass through VIA).

It is going to take a decade for Phase 2 (and probably 3) of LRT expansion in Ottawa, and the Gatineau LRT, to be built, and for the dust to settle in terms of how they affect growth in the region, before a realistic assessment of how a regional rail network might look. I know that is a boring, non-speculative perspective. But, if you also factor in the potential upgrades from VIA HFR (which is one step closer to reality), that is a lot of game changing, non-auto oriented infrastructure coming down the line in only a decade, and its impacts need to be seen and better understood before money starts being spent on a regional rail (which will have, at best, have only marginal value for the region).

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Treplow

Vancouver has one too, with a subway station named after it (Yaletown-Roundhouse).

Victoria still has one relatively in tact. Although I think it will soon be integrated into a condo development

https://maps.app.goo.gl/TfmKiq5eHAGMkVHU6

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

I don't see why we can't have two long-distance train stations. Montreal has two stations: Gare Central for intercity and commuter trains, as well as Gare Luciene-L'Allier for commuter trains.

Because if the goal is to create a modern, non-auto, transit/regional rail/intercity rail network, the goal should be to avoid situations where different services have different terminals. You can talk about altruistic, eco-friendly, cost savings reasons for taking trains or transit all you want. But the only way those modes are going to grow is if they are modern, and basically as efficient as the car (or a plane for some distances). An extra transfer here, separate stations there, any number of small compromises really might seem inconsequential on there own. But eventually the sum of small compromises ends up being a sizable hinderance towards adoption.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

The business case for any kind of relocation, or commuter rail, in the near future has been greatly reduced by the C-Line. Because it will be grade separated, automated (eventually), and operate at reasonable speeds, it can cover reach out pretty much all across Ottawa and offer commuter services. The only sizable commuter sheds that an ever growing C-Line couldn't serve would be places like Carleton Place, Arnprior, Smiths Falls (and even then Smiths Fall could be served through some sort of commuter pass through VIA).

FWIW the Confederation Line will be automated on day 1.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

FWIW the Confederation Line will be automated on day 1.

mostly automated. The operators will be the ones telling the train to go at stations, and potentially (depending on the exact situations) operating the doors manually. Everything else will be done automatically unless there's a situation the operator needs to take direct control of the vehicles (just to add some more info).