West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

That seems technologically infeasible. OC's system is automated; STO's will have drivers, since the trams run at street level.

The TTC's Line 1 currently runs in a mix of ATO and manual operation so no it's definitely not infeasible.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The TTC's Line 1 currently runs in a mix of ATO and manual operation so no it's definitely not infeasible.

The entire Line 1 in Toronto is fully grade separated though. With STO's line running on the street for the majority of it's route, it would be impossible to come even close to the correct timing through Ottawa's tunnel.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The entire Line 1 in Toronto is fully grade separated though. With STO's line running on the street for the majority of it's route, it would be impossible to come even close to the correct timing through Ottawa's tunnel.

The STO videos acknowledge that fact. For a lot of the other wild assumptions that STO study/proposal makes, they were at least realistic about the impossibility of interlining the Confed Line

[Multi-modal]

An update regarding STO's new rapid transit study (I've yet to read it): http://www.sto.ca/index.php?id=807&L=en

*EDIT - Its pretty clear some alternative alignments are preferred over others. The preferences are mostly quite sensible. Its also clear that people prefer trams over BRT.

[Horus]

Baby steps...


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/sto-tramway-lrt-gatineau-ottawa-1.5446921

STO confirms Gatineau will get light rail
Transit service looking at rail-only rapid transit expansion or 2 hybrid systems
CBC News · Posted: Jan 31, 2020 12:09 PM ET | Last Updated: 42 minutes ago

The Société de transport de l'Outaouais (STO) announced Thursday that it is now considering three possible transit scenarios between Aylmer in the west and downtown: an "all-tram" option and two that rely on a hybrid system of trams and buses.

Two other bus-only scenarios have been shelved after studies suggested they wouldn't be able to meet an anticipated boost in ridership, including over the Portage Bridge to Ottawa.

"Over the next 15 years, the number of public transit users crossing the [bridge] in the direction of Ottawa during the morning peak period will increase from 3,500 to around 7,500 riders per hour," a press release from the STO noted.

"In order to respond to that increase, the total number of buses required would saturate the reserved lane, even with articulated or bi-articulated buses."
The STO added that upping the number of buses along the proposed routes would only compound traffic problems in the area.

One of the suggested rapid lines would be built along chemin d'Aylmer, while the other would start further north and serve the city's Plateau sector.

One or both will be served by light rail trains — if only one is, the other would be served by express buses.

All three plans see trains crossing the Portage Bridge.



Ottawa connection points unknown

The STO's board of directors approved the use of $16 million from the Quebec government to fast-track further analysis of the project, as the City of Ottawa had requested.

$730,000 of those funds will be used to explore how to connect Gatineau's proposed tramway to Ottawa's light rail line.

Its buses currently stop near Lyon station, but not right outside.

"At this stage … We would try to get a sense of how many stations we need, try to depict [the] distance between them," said STO president Myriam Nadeau.

But working out how to incorporate a new tramway into downtown Ottawa's existing LRT infrastructure could be challenging.

"It's dense, there are lots of heritage buildings, security concerns [and] it's also the Parliamentary precinct," Nadeau explained.

After a detailed analysis is complete, the STO will appear before Ottawa's transportation committee in the spring to present the preliminary options.

A recommendation for the new system will be made following a period of public consultation, with a final plan expected by the end of this year.

The province has said it will pay for 60 per cent of the cost, with Infrastructure Minister and Ottawa Centre MP Catherine McKenna saying the federal government will help pay for the project without giving specifics.

[Horus]

Since the CBC story had a somewhat different map than STO is using for their process, I'll put the STO ones here.

Three options are still on the table:
Option 1: All-tram



Option 2: Tram via Plateau, BRT via Aylmer/Taché



Option 3: Tram via Aylmer/Taché, BRT via Plateau



Images from STO: http://www.sto.ca/index.php?id=820&L=en

[Uhuniau]

STO seems to be as keen to avoid directly serving the urban core of old Aylmer with higher-order transit, as OC Transpo is the urban core of Ottawa.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

STO seems to be as keen to avoid directly serving the urban core of old Aylmer with higher-order transit, as OC Transpo is the urban core of Ottawa.

Urban core is a bit of a stretch. It's far from urban there.


I really hope Ottawa both doesn't get railroaded by STO but also doesn't get hung up on stupid view planes etc.

IMHO Feds should forget about the Kettle Bridge and pay for a downtown to downtown tunnel.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

STO seems to be as keen to avoid directly serving the urban core of old Aylmer with higher-order transit, as OC Transpo is the urban core of Ottawa.

What do you consider to be the urban core of old Aylmer? Just curious.

[Truenorth00]

I'm looking forward to the eventual realization that the PoW Bridge will have to be use as the crossing as the realization dawns on how Ottawa will not tolerate surface running of LRTs downtown (neither would the NCC) and how expensive it is going to be to tunnel into downtown Ottawa to meet at one or several stations. Champagne tastes on a beer budget.

Time for everyone to accept that the most cost effective crossing is taking Trillium across on the PoW and having it meet Gatineau's LRT and Rapibus BRT at Alexander Taché.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm looking forward to the eventual realization that the PoW Bridge will have to be use as the crossing as the realization dawns on how Ottawa will not tolerate surface running of LRTs downtown (neither would the NCC) and how expensive it is going to be to tunnel into downtown Ottawa to meet at one or several stations. Champagne tastes on a beer budget.

Time for everyone to accept that the most cost effective crossing is taking Trillium across on the PoW and having it meet Gatineau's LRT and Rapibus BRT at Alexander Taché.

Maybe in terms of initial capital costs, but the operating cost of running the extra trains the entire length of the Confederation line just to handle the demand of those transferring at Bayview from Gatineau to travel a short distance downtown won't be trivial.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Maybe in terms of initial capital costs, but the operating cost of running the extra trains the entire length of the Confederation line just to handle the demand of those transferring at Bayview from Gatineau to travel a short distance downtown won't be trivial.

I'd argue that it would still be cheaper than tunneling through downtown Ottawa. Also easier to implement. And benefits a lot more than Gatineau commuters.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'd argue that it would still be cheaper than tunneling through downtown Ottawa. Also easier to implement. And benefits a lot more than Gatineau commuters.

First of all, the cost would be paid for by OCTranspo, so unless STO is willing to transfer money to them for doing all interprovincial transit, it wouldn’t be fair to Ottawa taxpayers.

Secondly, it all depends how long a tunnel we are talking about. All that would really be needed is a tunnel from the Portage Bridge, under the Garden of the Provinces and Territories and Sparks St to Lyon St. The road rises up from the bridge anyway, so the train wouldn’t have to drop in elevation all that much.

That would get most people close enough to their destination that they could walk. Those that aren’t could transfer to either a bus or the OTrain. As I have said before, transfers there would be far less problematic for 2 reasons:

1. Only a small subset of passengers would be transferring, and
2. People have already started getting off the Confed line, making room for them.

Maybe one day in the future it could be extended if it would serve another purpose (like making a circle line) but for now it wouldn’t be necessary to run a parallel line.

I look at this like the Yellow line in Montreal, it ends at what is both a major destination and transfer point.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

First of all, the cost would be paid for by OCTranspo, so unless STO is willing to transfer money to them for doing all interprovincial transit, it wouldn’t be fair to Ottawa taxpayers.

Secondly, it all depends how long a tunnel we are talking about. All that would really be needed is a tunnel from the Portage Bridge, under the Garden of the Provinces and Territories and Sparks St to Lyon St. The road rises up from the bridge anyway, so the train wouldn’t have to drop in elevation all that much.

That would get most people close enough to their destination that they could walk. Those that aren’t could transfer to either a bus or the OTrain. As I have said before, transfers there would be far less problematic for 2 reasons:

1. Only a small subset of passengers would be transferring, and
2. People have already started getting off the Confed line, making room for them.

Maybe one day in the future it could be extended if it would serve another purpose (like making a circle line) but for now it wouldn’t be necessary to run a parallel line.

I look at this like the Yellow line in Montreal, it ends at what is both a major destination and transfer point.

Wouldn't it also need to go below Lyon station?
Anyway of course STO or best case Federal Government would need to pay. Certainly Ottawa won't. They will probably complain even if someone else pays for it.

I don't see why they wouldn't allow surface if they got it for free all the way to Rideau Centre for example. Would allow some back commuting to Lyon and Gatineau of course.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Secondly, it all depends how long a tunnel we are talking about. All that would really be needed is a tunnel from the Portage Bridge, under the Garden of the Provinces and Territories and Sparks St to Lyon St. The road rises up from the bridge anyway, so the train wouldn’t have to drop in elevation all that much.

I've looked at this, and interestingly the top of rail at Lyon Station is at exactly the same level as the Portage/Wellington intersection. So the Gatineau lrt could literally stay exactly level, enter the escarpment below the new Victims of Communism memorial, then run parallel and at the same elevation to the confederation line (but one block north on sparks).

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Wouldn't it also need to go below Lyon station?.

It wouldn't need to go below Lyon station as long as it stayed north of the confederation line (running parallel under sparks, ideally)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

First of all, the cost would be paid for by OCTranspo, so unless STO is willing to transfer money to them for doing all interprovincial transit, it wouldn’t be fair to Ottawa taxpayers.

STO/Gatineau/Quebec may well have to pay for more trains for OC Transpo. Nothing wrong with that. And it's still cheaper and easier to implement.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Secondly, it all depends how long a tunnel we are talking about. All that would really be needed is a tunnel from the Portage Bridge, under the Garden of the Provinces and Territories and Sparks St to Lyon St. The road rises up from the bridge anyway, so the train wouldn’t have to drop in elevation all that much.

$250M/km today. Probably more by the time this project starts. And post Confederation Line increased complexity. Not to mention the cost to Ottawa's tax base and economy from half a decade of construction in the downtown core. All to facilitate Gatineau commuters? I can't see it happening.

The above is why Gatineau isn't even proposing tunneling yet. They want to see how far they can push surface running through the core. They'll get their "Non" in due course.

[Radster]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

STO/Gatineau/Quebec may well have to pay for more trains for OC Transpo. Nothing wrong with that. And it's still cheaper and easier to implement.

Ideally, Trillium line would be double tracked, and both STO and OC Transpo would run trains across the POW bridge, with both STO and OC having trains to and from the airport. So every second train departing the airport would be an STO train Gatineau bound. Every second train coming across the POW bridge from Gatineau would an OC Transpo train going to Leitrim.

Unfortunately, we have too many hurdles to overcome for this to happen, due to interprovincial complications, laws, union stuff etc.

But I have seen this in Warsaw, the underground airport train station is serviced by two train operators, its a single track station, so they alternate trains between the two operators. Works well!

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

$250M/km today.

Luckily only approximately 0.4km of tunneling is required to get to Lyon, 0.9km if you want two stations in the core.

In addition, you are tunneling in good geological conditions - no need to go through the geological faults/transitions around the Rideau Canal and Sandy Hill.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Luckily only approximately 0.4km of tunneling is required to get to Lyon, 0.9km if you want two stations in the core.

In addition, you are tunneling in good geological conditions - no need to go through the geological faults/transitions around the Rideau Canal and Sandy Hill.

I don't get how they use the Portage Bridge and then get deep enough to connect to Lyon after crossing. All while either turning to line up on Queen or to build a station under the old Delta/Hilton Garden Inn. All that's assuming that everyone is good with swapping bus lanes for LRT. I wouldn't bet money on that being an easy sell either.

And the more complicated all this gets, the more the cost goes up, imperiling the entire endeavour. The last thing Gatineau should want is the Ottawa connection making their whole LRT unaffordable....