Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by nname

The old schedule shows the line takes 3-4 hours end-to-end. Even if I'm a tourist, if they stuck me in a train for 4 hours, I'd better end up in at least Kamloops...

Ya nobody is riding that, tourists, locals, even the homeless won't be interested.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Ya nobody is riding that, tourists, locals, even the homeless won't be interested.

The old interurban schedule was about 45 minutes Vancouver-New Westminster.

It made a ton more stops on low-level platforms with high floor equipment built in 1910. You can do better today

Not that you can do *that* much better, but you can do better than 1910

[ilikeredheads]

let's revive that streetcar and run it on a active freight line that is single track!!

that's next level 200 IQ idea right there!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

The old interurban schedule was about 45 minutes Vancouver-New Westminster.

It made a ton more stops on low-level platforms with high floor equipment built in 1910. You can do better today

Not that you can do *that* much better, but you can do better than 1910

Uhhhh... we have done much better. It's called Skytrain and takes about 20 mins.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

The old interurban schedule was about 45 minutes Vancouver-New Westminster.

It made a ton more stops on low-level platforms with high floor equipment built in 1910. You can do better today

Not that you can do *that* much better, but you can do better than 1910

The Chilliwack line ran non-stop between Vancouver and New Westminster... And the stops for the rest of the line are pretty similar to the spacing on SkyTrain, so not exactly "tons of stops"

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by nname

The Chilliwack line ran non-stop between Vancouver and New Westminster... And the stops for the rest of the line are pretty similar to the spacing on SkyTrain, so not exactly "tons of stops"

Wow, that's quite the schedule. Thanks for posting!!!

[ilikeredheads]

45min non stop traveling 12.5 miles from van to new west is awfully slow.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Kisai

GlobalBC news is going to cover this dumb idea again at 11pm.

You think the Interurban Hydrogen rail revival is a dumb idea because you live in Burnaby. People SoF however think the SkyTrain extension is a dumb idea and regional rail is a good one.

You, like Translink, are thinking in a Vancouver-centric fashion...…...you think everyone wants to get to Vancouver as fast as possible and the interurban would be too slow to perform that duty. The reality however is quite different. 70% of all the commuting trips SoF begin and end there..... a complete reversal of 30% doing so just 15 years ago which does NOT include Abb/Chill where almost no one works west of Surrey. Buses can be used for Vancouver expresses on HOV but the Valley needs a line to connect itself not connect to Vancouver.

I went to the first of several RFTV meetings in Cloverdale last night and it showed a map of the route and how it connects not just cities but nearly all of the academic institutions. It also would serve the huge 800 acre Gloucester Industrial Park that has thousands of employees and not a single bus despite paying the gas taxes and $1.5 million/year in Translink property taxes. Every single person working there has to drive while the train station would be right there.

99 KM for $1.2 billion connecting every single post-sec in the Valley {SFU, 2 Kwantlen Colleges, Trinity Western, 2 UFV campus, and RCMP/BC Justice institute} as opposed to $3 billion 16km SkyTrain running thru Green Timbers Park, the Serpentine Wetlands, and low density housing to Langley. The rail corridor is there, any twinning of tracks or overpasses would be 100% the cost of CP as the agreement stated in the 80s when it was sold which was very forward thinking of Vander Zalm who was at the meeting, and the line could be up and running in just a couple of years with hydrogen non-polluting trains. The ONLY reason the Surrey mayor now want SkyTrain is because nearly all his backers are real estate developers and he just "coincidentally" owns several properties along the proposed SkyTrain route.

This train is for people in the Valley, not for Vancouverites which is why Vancouver-centered Translink is against it.

[ssiguy]

Just to add to the above.........one of the people in the audience was exstatic about the idea. Hre is a manager at Logistics which has a large plant at the Gloucester Industrial Park and said they are continually short-staffed because there is not a single bus route to the area {not even in rush hour} and they can't get employees due to it and they can't keep many of the ones they have as the commute along HWY#1 {the ONLY highway serving the entire valley} is horrid and the number of accidents along the road due to non-stop conjestion has risen 40% in the last 4 years routinely bringing the entire highway to a screeching halt. He has talked to other businesses in the Park and says they all have the same problem of getting and keeping staff due to Translink not willing to provide a single bus at any time............be quiet, shut up, and just pay your damn transit taxes seems to be Vancouver-centric Translink's response.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You think the Interurban Hydrogen rail revival is a dumb idea because you live in Burnaby. People SoF however think the SkyTrain extension is a dumb idea and regional rail is a good one.

No they don't. I live SoF and have all my life and I have yet to run into anyone I know who thinks SkyTrain extension is dumb.

Your argument is quite frankly the dumb one because you are comparing two completely different transit systems that quite frankly shouldn't be competing for dollars in the first place. They serve two different purposes.

You, like Translink, are thinking in a Vancouver-centric fashion...…...you think everyone wants to get to Vancouver as fast as possible and the interurban would be too slow to perform that duty. The reality however is quite different. 70% of all the commuting trips SoF begin and end there..... a complete reversal of 30% doing so just 15 years ago which does NOT include Abb/Chill where almost no one works west of Surrey. Buses can be used for Vancouver expresses on HOV but the Valley needs a line to connect itself not connect to Vancouver.

I've advocated for years for switching away from a Vancouver-centric model of transportation because of how the region has shifted, jobs, entertainment, and living wise.

With that said, the Interurban concept does nothing to help this at all. It is still a commuter model like the Westcoast Express meant for people going from point A to B at the start of the work day and B to A at the end.

This TOO is against the grain of how society is shifting. Society is shifting to a model where more people work from home, more people work non-standard hours, and more people want to use transit during the day to do daily tasks. The SkyTrain model allows this much like busses.

Finally, such an Interurban line is really set up to funnel people to/from Surrey so it just shifts the "Vancouver-centric" transit design model to a "Surrey-centric" one.

I went to the first of several RFTV meetings in Cloverdale last night and it showed a map of the route and how it connects not just cities but nearly all of the academic institutions. It also would serve the huge 800 acre Gloucester Industrial Park that has thousands of employees and not a single bus despite paying the gas taxes and $1.5 million/year in Translink property taxes. Every single person working there has to drive while the train station would be right there.

I don't discount this fact, I just don't see how this is a regional priority if we have to pick priorities. Don't get me wrong, I think doing both would be great, but if we are truely going to target the greatest cost-benefit to the tax payer, a SkyTrain extension to Langley hits a heck of a lot more population centers and would do FAR more to step Surrey up as a second regional hub driving more jobs and business.

I get the argument for needing transit in places like Gloucester, it was short sighted of that area to be developed without any transit considerations. But the businesses can't complain too much, they chose to move to those industrial parks to save a lot of money because land was cheap. This is part of the penalty of those decisions to migrate away from traditional industrial areas. Also it would be way way way easier and cheaper just to add bus service to that area. It's not like 20,000 people work there. Bus service more than adequately services areas like Tilbury Industrial Park.

99 KM for $1.2 billion connecting every single post-sec in the Valley {SFU, 2 Kwantlen Colleges, Trinity Western, 2 UFV campus, and RCMP/BC Justice institute} as opposed to $3 billion 16km SkyTrain running thru Green Timbers Park, the Serpentine Wetlands, and low density housing to Langley. The rail corridor is there, any twinning of tracks or overpasses would be 100% the cost of CP as the agreement stated in the 80s when it was sold which was very forward thinking of Vander Zalm who was at the meeting, and the line could be up and running in just a couple of years with hydrogen non-polluting trains. The ONLY reason the Surrey mayor now want SkyTrain is because nearly all his backers are real estate developers and he just "coincidentally" owns several properties along the proposed SkyTrain route.

You name a bunch of campuses which is fine, but the line doesn't hit very many population centers. I believe it hits maybe 3 population centers and would service realistically 15% of the population a SkyTrain extension would.

You say low density housing to Langley? Have you actually driven the neighborhoods along Fraser Highway. They are all FAR FROM low density. The population in Clayton Heights alone is about 35% the entire population of Abbotsford.

It's also not all about money and how long a line can be. I don't know anyone in their right mind who would commute from say Langley City to Surrey Center using the inter urban instead of driving. The frequency of trains and total time for that stretch vs just driving down Fraser Highway doesn't make it justified. So I don't see how the Interurban would actually get anyone between Surrey Central and Langley city out of their cars.

It is really just catering to people further out in Abbotsford and Chilliwack thus go back to my first point that it is basically a Westcoast Express for the Fraser Valley with a Surrey-centric transit model meaning it isn't in direct competition to the purpose of SkyTrain extension.

They should both likely be built in the long term, just based on pure population numbers and regional density, SkyTrain extension makes the most sense and would actually result in the most efficient cost per capita spend.

This train is for people in the Valley, not for Vancouverites which is why Vancouver-centered Translink is against it.

Woot you admit it. It's for people in Abbotsford and Chilliwack, not for Vancouvertites or honestly anyone living in Surrey or Langley either.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Just to add to the above.........one of the people in the audience was exstatic about the idea. Hre is a manager at Logistics which has a large plant at the Gloucester Industrial Park and said they are continually short-staffed because there is not a single bus route to the area {not even in rush hour} and they can't get employees due to it and they can't keep many of the ones they have as the commute along HWY#1 {the ONLY highway serving the entire valley} is horrid and the number of accidents along the road due to non-stop conjestion has risen 40% in the last 4 years routinely bringing the entire highway to a screeching halt. He has talked to other businesses in the Park and says they all have the same problem of getting and keeping staff due to Translink not willing to provide a single bus at any time............be quiet, shut up, and just pay your damn transit taxes seems to be Vancouver-centric Translink's response.

So the answer isn't build an expensive train system out to Chilliwack which doesn't service the regional needs. The answer is, add — bus service to Gloucester Industrial Park.

Like I said previously, don't get me wrong I think interurban isn't a bad idea to be built down the road for SoF, just it isn't a priority nor in direct competition to the SkyTrain extension which _is_ needed.

[ilikeredheads]

It's a stupid idea because it's counter intuitive to run passenger rail on tracks you DO NOT own, and on an active freight line, no less. Forget the long indirect route it takes to avoid the population centers. Forget the numerous at-grade crossings. Freight trains are long and slow while passenger trains are shorter and faster. They are in direct conflict with each other. And since you don't own the track, you don't have any track priority, which greatly affects service reliability, as well as the level of service you can provide. Why do you think WCE is offering only monodirection service during rush hour? And why would CP twin the tracks out of their own pocket when it doesn't benefit them at all? You'd be very naive to believe that.

And then there's the hydrogen train, which is just icing on the cake. Do you know why hydrogen powered vehicles haven't taken off yet? It's because the technology isn't mature enough, and more importantly, it comes with a very high operating cost. I mean, don't take my word for it. Just ask Whistler:
http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/transit+hydrogen+fleet+sale/10441639/story.html
So, the only options you have is running diesel locomotive with passenger cars or DMUs

[ssiguy]

Unlike the WCE {which Translink pays $20 million/year to use}, this line, thanks to Vander Zalm, still is considered a BC asset and therefore there would be NO oayment to CP to use the line and in fact if there are any time schedule problems requiring grade separation or twinning of tracks, it is in the agreement that such costs would be born 100% by CP.

The issue of frequency is a valid one and one that I raised. The line would NOT be just a commuter rail line running in one direction only in rush hours like the WCE but run all day/each way like a true suburban/RER-type system like in Mel/Syd or Toronto GO RER type system. In other words this would be a truly viable line for people with no transportation options and not just for 9 to 5ers who leave their cars parked at home.

As for density it would go thru heavily populated Delta, Newton, Cloverdale towncentre wich the SkyTrain completely avoids} Langley, downtown Abby and Chilliwack. it's important to note that the SkyTrain ext doesn't serve a single major employment or academic area between Lang/Surr unlike both Kwantlen campuses and Trinity Western to say nothing of the UVF.

It's not so much that the SkyTrain extension is a bad idea but the reality is that it will simply shuttle people from Langley to King George but not serve the Valley outside of that. The Fraser Valley is, by far, the fastest growing population and job growth centre of the LM so the priority must be to create a line to link it all together and not just extend a Vancouver line.

[Rico]

For people who are really interested it is worth it to read the original Translink report. A couple of takeaways I had were the job/population density is very low and indirect around the tracks compared to other options (the map in the report shows this very clearly) the other takeaway was you will not be able to run usable passenger service on the portion of the line shared with the Robert's Bank Railway Spur (Cloverdale to Langley). You would need new right of way and tracks because by 2040 there will be something like 45 very long and slow trains a day on that portion. The report basically says you would need to rebuild and double track the whole thing...I don't agree but you would need to a new right of way around the Roberts Bank Spur portion and a lot of upgrades and passing spurs/upgraded signaling on the rest....and no CP / SRY don't need to build anything the don't want to. They would need to build and pay for anything that they want to build. Somehow I don't think double tracking the line is a priority for them.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This train is for people in the Valley, not for Vancouverites which is why Vancouver-centered Translink is against it.

You do know that TransLink provides transit service for Metro Vancouver while BC Transit provides transit service for the Fraser Valley... Why aren't you pushing BC Transit to build this rail line - they're the appropriate group, not TransLink.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Unlike the WCE {which Translink pays $20 million/year to use}, this line, thanks to Vander Zalm, still is considered a BC asset and therefore there would be NO oayment to CP to use the line and in fact if there are any time schedule problems requiring grade separation or twinning of tracks, it is in the agreement that such costs would be born 100% by CP.

It's not so much that the SkyTrain extension is a bad idea but the reality is that it will simply shuttle people from Langley to King George but not serve the Valley outside of that. The Fraser Valley is, by far, the fastest growing population and job growth centre of the LM so the priority must be to create a line to link it all together and not just extend a Vancouver line.

Vander Zalm, that scum bag — never did anything good for BC. Grace Mccarthy should have become the leader, not that corrupt loser.

also, which line are you talking about? there is only a small portion that still belongs to BC and not part of the lease to CN Rail. not CP.

also, why would TransLink put service into the Fraser Valley when that is NOT a part of TransLink's jurisdiction.

stop trying to steal Translink's limited money to take out of their area.

[xd_1771]

In case anyone is curious, South Fraser Community Rail posted an album of their "rally" in Cloverdale at the Elements Casino last night

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.670270220065782

I will leave you guys to form your own conclusions about this crowd... but (just saying) my observations are that of the maybe 20-30 people attending (pffffft), 90% of these people are old white dudes (lol) and not one of them is under 30.

It doesn't exactly help that their choice of venue was a casino, which isn't really where you'd go if you were, say, under 18 and wanting transit, which is where I started around 7 years ago...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

In case anyone is curious, South Fraser Community Rail posted an album of their "rally" in Cloverdale at the Elements Casino last night

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.670270220065782

I will leave you guys to form your own conclusions about this crowd... but (just saying) my observations are that of the maybe 20-30 people attending (pffffft), 90% of these people are old white dudes (lol) and not one of them is under 30.

It doesn't exactly help that their choice of venue was a casino, which isn't really where you'd go if you were, say, under 18 and wanting transit, which is where I started around 7 years ago...

Well, the slogan IS "we're gonna build a railway, and we're gonna make CP CN whoever the hell it is pay for it..."

On a serious note WRT service to Newton and North Delta, TransLink has plans for bus-only lanes on King George and a B-Line from Scott Road to Newton (overlapping the 319).
Up to an hour waiting for a hydrogen train, then another thirty-plus minutes to get to Langley... or twelve to a SkyTrain station, thirty to Langley, and only eight minutes of waiting, tops. Seems like an easy choice.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

In case anyone is curious, South Fraser Community Rail posted an album of their "rally" in Cloverdale at the Elements Casino last night

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.670270220065782

I will leave you guys to form your own conclusions about this crowd... but (just saying) my observations are that of the maybe 20-30 people attending (pffffft), 90% of these people are old white dudes (lol) and not one of them is under 30.

It doesn't exactly help that their choice of venue was a casino, which isn't really where you'd go if you were, say, under 18 and wanting transit, which is where I started around 7 years ago...

Perhaps you should note the date of the event...……….the Raptors game was on.

As for BC Transit should build it...……..that was a major point of the reason why the line is so vital as was clearly stated by and cheered by the audience and why traffic is so bad and service so poor and with many areas, non-existent. Translink, unlike the people SoF, see the area as being 2 regions and not 1. Translink seems to think that commuting stops and start at the gas tax boundary.

Yes SoF needs better connections to NoF but not as much as it needs better connections to itself. Very few people SoF work in Vancouver except for people in SS. The traffic is simply to bad and the commute too long. Vancouver and BC gov'ts made very conscious decisions to create an unaffordable resort and they accomplished that in spades. This is why so many people have fled to SoF and VERY importantly employers with them and the latter part Translink can't seem to get it's head around.

Transit priorities must reflect this new realty and shape a transit system connecting the people here and not put the emphasis on connecting people to Vancouver.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Perhaps you should note the date of the event...……….the Raptors game was on.

As for BC Transit should build it...……..that was a major point of the reason why the line is so vital as was clearly stated by and cheered by the audience and why traffic is so bad and service so poor and with many areas, non-existent. Translink, unlike the people SoF, see the area as being 2 regions and not 1. Translink seems to think that commuting stops and start at the gas tax boundary.

Yes SoF needs better connections to NoF but not as much as it needs better connections to itself. Very few people SoF work in Vancouver except for people in SS. The traffic is simply to bad and the commute too long. Vancouver and BC gov'ts made very conscious decisions to create an unaffordable resort and they accomplished that in spades. This is why so many people have fled to SoF and VERY importantly employers with them and the latter part Translink can't seem to get it's head around.

Transit priorities must reflect this new realty and shape a transit system connecting the people here and not put the emphasis on connecting people to Vancouver.

Well if you want Translink service to extend beyond the gas tax boundary, presumably you'll support the gas tax being collected in a larger area as well?

There's a weak case for extending transit to Abbotsford. Just over 9,000 Metro residents commuted there in 2016 (presumably most from the South of Fraser) and 20,000 commuted to Metro Vancouver from Abbotsford / Mission. But Chilliwack has only 3,850 residents commuting to Metro Vancouver, and only 1,090 commute out, so it wouldn't seem to justify any sort of fixed rail investment.

While Surrey/White Rock added nearly 42,000 jobs in 10 years to 2016, and the Langleys 12,200. The City of Vancouver added 51,100 and Burnaby another 10,800. North of Fraser is still adding more jobs than South of Fraser, and the huge office growth in Vancouver will make that even more true in the current decade.