West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

and allowing streams of STO passengers to transfer to OCTranspo at no cost. .

This seems to be a sore point for you (and maybe one or two other posters) but I don't recall OC Transpo or any Ottawa politicians mentioning this as an issue.

As has been mentioned the Confederation Line trains will be emptying out quite a bit at Lyon and from that point they'll be running on to Rideau half-empty anyway. There is no extra cost for OC Transpo to carry a relatively small number of STO passengers for two stops to Rideau.

And I suspect the vast majority of CBD-bound STO passengers getting off at Lyon will simply walk to their destinations as opposed to waiting and taking the C-Line for one stop to Parliament.

Right now as has been noted relatively few STO passengers transfer to the OC Transpo network in downtown Ottawa.

Being able to take STO only to a stop close to your workplace in downtown Ottawa vs. having to take STO + OC Transpo to somewhere else deeper into Ottawa seems to be the dividing point between Gatineau people taking transit vs. taking their car to work. As soon as you fall into the latter scenario, most everyone who has any choice at all in the matter will drive.

I don't think we know for sure yet whether or not the C-Line will lead more Gatinois to use transit to get to workplaces deeper into Ottawa outside of downtown.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by Acajack

..........

As has been mentioned the Confederation Line trains will be emptying out quite a bit at Lyon and from that point they'll be running on to Rideau half-empty anyway. There is no extra cost for OC Transpo to carry a relatively small number of STO passengers for two stops to Rideau.

And I suspect the vast majority of CBD-bound STO passengers getting off at Lyon will simply walk to their destinations as opposed to waiting and taking the C-Line for one stop to Parliament.

..........

Good Day.

This is why I really would like to see any such STO service extend beyond Lyon to Parl.
It helps shed and share the load across both station sites.

At surface (on Sparks), it could be done at relatively little added cost.

At tunnel (under Sparks), it would prove more practicable, uninterruptable, and service-consistent.
And a tunnel remains more ownership and infrastructure separable. My preference.

IMO.

[zzptichka]

Regardless which option they choose - tunnel or at-grade, that would be a massive opportunity for Sparks street re-think and shake-up. Can't wait.

[J.OT13]

Once again though, there is a significant disconnect between Gatineau's plans and Ottawa's projects. While Gatineau is trying to figure out the best way to cross their train, settling on Lyon Station as the connection point, Ottawa is months away from finalizing plans for a complete overhaul of Sparks, which does not include potential for a transit connection. Ottawa will spend millions on re-building Sparks and will likely have to be torn-out, at least partially, for STO's train, be it surface or underground.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Once again though, there is a significant disconnect between Gatineau's plans and Ottawa's projects. While Gatineau is trying to figure out the best way to cross their train, settling on Lyon Station as the connection point, Ottawa is months away from finalizing plans for a complete overhaul of Sparks, which does not include potential for a transit connection. Ottawa will spend millions on re-building Sparks and will likely have to be torn-out, at least partially, for STO's train, be it surface or underground.

I am not sure I follow. Why would Line from the Portage Bridge to Lyon Station impact Sparks Street?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I am not sure I follow. Why would Line from the Portage Bridge to Lyon Station impact Sparks Street?

The general consensus seems to be the Line will terminate on or under Sparks between Lyon and Kent. Gatineau seems to be open to the possibility of extending it further to O'Connor allowing connections to Parliament as well.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Through CBD no but by definition to connect to Lyon and Rideau stations there will need to be significant surface or sub surface lines in Ottawa.

I have never disputed that there’d be some surface or sub-surface running to facilitate connection. What I am challenging are these crazy ideas where people think the NCC will allow trams on Wellington or anybody will allow a parallel tunnel under Sparks.

The ridership case does not exist for that either. There may be 8500 pphpd from Gatineau into Ottawa. But with two connections that riderserhip gets split up. No need for a tunnel through the CBD.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think Ottawa will be surprisingly obstinate on not allowing Quebec to build a tram line on city streets despite doing nothing to control the bus traffic and allowing streams of STO passengers to transfer to OCTranspo at no cost. It seems very backwards to me but from musings from Watson it seems like this will be pushed back.

Bus routes can be modified. See the STO routings post-Confederation Line. Not so easy to move tram routes.

They can talk all they want about surface running trams. But I am going to bet the NCC tells them to make the connections underground. No way they want a traffic mess with surface running trams flanking either side of Parliament.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The general consensus seems to be the Line will terminate on or under Sparks between Lyon and Kent. Gatineau seems to be open to the possibility of extending it further to O'Connor allowing connections to Parliament as well.

It’s starting to sound that none of Gatineau’s planners have talked to the NCC or Parliament Protective Service and the RCMP about their plans. They have some nice metaphorical landmines waiting for them.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The general consensus seems to be the Line will terminate on or under Sparks between Lyon and Kent. Gatineau seems to be open to the possibility of extending it further to O'Connor allowing connections to Parliament as well.

The STO documents identify a proposed station at Wellington and Lyon (where there is a lot of space). Building a station under Sparks offers a large increase in cost and a very tight, uncomfortable turn.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This seems to be a sore point for you (and maybe one or two other posters) but I don't recall OC Transpo or any Ottawa politicians mentioning this as an issue.

As has been mentioned the Confederation Line trains will be emptying out quite a bit at Lyon and from that point they'll be running on to Rideau half-empty anyway. There is no extra cost for OC Transpo to carry a relatively small number of STO passengers for two stops to Rideau.

And I suspect the vast majority of CBD-bound STO passengers getting off at Lyon will simply walk to their destinations as opposed to waiting and taking the C-Line for one stop to Parliament.

Right now as has been noted relatively few STO passengers transfer to the OC Transpo network in downtown Ottawa.

Being able to take STO only to a stop close to your workplace in downtown Ottawa vs. having to take STO + OC Transpo to somewhere else deeper into Ottawa seems to be the dividing point between Gatineau people taking transit vs. taking their car to work. As soon as you fall into the latter scenario, most everyone who has any choice at all in the matter will drive.

I don't think we know for sure yet whether or not the C-Line will lead more Gatinois to use transit to get to workplaces deeper into Ottawa outside of downtown.

I actually agree that being sore about non paying STO customers is mostly pointless. The revenue is pretty small in the scheme of things.

A transfer at Bayview would be something totally different as almost all Ottawa bound STO passengers would crush on to east bound trains that are already likely near capacity.

Lyon will be a lot better but I still think the use from there to Rideau and U of Ottawa will be very heavy and noticeably reduce user experience. Including slowing down the trains by a few seconds at the Lyon to U Ottawa stations. Should Ottawa give all of this to STO customers for free? I don't see why. All the other systems I have used in multiple cities haven't allowed free transfers. Especially when the other jurisdiction is somewhere people flee to to reduce costs (though this is not a huge issue here generally but when Ottawa's property taxes soar to pay for the LRT it could become more common despite the weird Quebec phobia many Ottawa suburbanites have.)

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I actually agree that being sore about non paying STO customers is mostly pointless. The revenue is pretty small in the scheme of things.

A transfer at Bayview would be something totally different as almost all Ottawa bound STO passengers would crush on to east bound trains that are already likely near capacity.

Lyon will be a lot better but I still think the use from there to Rideau and U of Ottawa will be very heavy and noticeably reduce user experience. Including slowing down the trains by a few seconds at the Lyon to U Ottawa stations. Should Ottawa give all of this to STO customers for free? I don't see why. All the other systems I have used in multiple cities haven't allowed free transfers. Especially when the other jurisdiction is somewhere people flee to to reduce costs (though this is not a huge issue here generally but when Ottawa's property taxes soar to pay for the LRT it could become more common despite the weird Quebec phobia many Ottawa suburbanites have.)

You are targeting the wrong people though. If you charged Gatineau drivers a toll to use Ottawa roads which is a bigger problem then Ottawa woul collect alot more revenue to cover all the extra costs on transit. Still there is no need to punish transit users when cars are the problem.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The general consensus seems to be the Line will terminate on or under Sparks between Lyon and Kent. Gatineau seems to be open to the possibility of extending it further to O'Connor allowing connections to Parliament as well.

I've not seen anything originating from STO or Gatineau indicating any desire to extend beyond Lyon to Parliament station.

That speculation or stated desire seems to originate in these boards.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Horus

I've not seen anything originating from STO or Gatineau indicating any desire to extend beyond Lyon to Parliament station.

That speculation or stated desire seems to originate in these boards.

the extension to parliament station was one of the questions on feedback form on their website.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

the extension to parliament station was one of the questions on feedback form on their website.

Though I don't think that's the same as saying that the STO plans to run trains all the way to Parliament Station. The questionnaire has a bunch of hypothetical scenarios, including running STO trains way deeper into Ottawa, beyond downtown.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Horus

I've not seen anything originating from STO or Gatineau indicating any desire to extend beyond Lyon to Parliament station.

That speculation or stated desire seems to originate in these boards.

There seems to be speculation about a lot of things on this board, and bogeyman-style assumptions about the STO's "desires".

I think the STO will have its hands totally full both financially and logistically even in getting a system built on its own territory with a modest single beach-head if possible somewhere just across the river in central Ottawa.

Anything beyond that essential beach-head in Ottawa will come far behind expansions to the network and services in Gatineau itself and of course the conversion to the Rapibus corridor to rail.

[lrt's friend]

I often dream of the impossible, but ideally we would build a rail line that would be shared by STO and OC. In other words, a rail line that would serve well beyond downtown Ottawa. Somehow, we need to find a way to get past the jurisdictional hurdle to take transit integration to the next level. Rail transit is where we could most likely make this possible. The ideal case, would have a Gatineau rail line extend to employment areas of interest in the east end, including the Montfort Hospital, CMHC, NRC and CSIS. I am sure that this would be a destination for many Gatineau residents, which will make transit more viable for them plus reverse flow of Ottawa residents going into the downtown area. In the very long-term, this could extend to the South Orleans Transitway corridor.

The development of the Ottawa-Gatineau metro area will have increasing transportation problems when we cannot develop effective interprovincial transportation infrastructure. Just look at the bridge issue. If we solve the bridge issue, we will be driving more people into vehicles if our rail network is hobbled by connection issues downtown. Just think of Ottawa-Gatineau at 2 million and still no new bridges and still no effective rail network that glaringly features clumsy connections downtown and that forces thousands to go through downtown to make a trip across the metro area. It is like we are still in the 1930s when both Ottawa and Hull were very compact cities.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I often dream of the impossible, but ideally we would build a rail line that would be shared by STO and OC. In other words, a rail line that would serve well beyond downtown Ottawa. Somehow, we need to find a way to get past the jurisdictional hurdle to take transit integration to the next level. Rail transit is where we could most likely make this possible. The ideal case, would have a Gatineau rail line extend to employment areas of interest in the east end, including the Montfort Hospital, CMHC, NRC and CSIS. I am sure that this would be a destination for many Gatineau residents, which will make transit more viable for them plus reverse flow of Ottawa residents going into the downtown area. In the very long-term, this could extend to the South Orleans Transitway corridor.

The development of the Ottawa-Gatineau metro area will have increasing transportation problems when we cannot develop effective interprovincial transportation infrastructure. Just look at the bridge issue. If we solve the bridge issue, we will be driving more people into vehicles if our rail network is hobbled by connection issues downtown. Just think of Ottawa-Gatineau at 2 million and still no new bridges and still no effective rail network that glaringly features clumsy connections downtown and that forces thousands to go through downtown to make a trip across the metro area. It is like we are still in the 1930s when both Ottawa and Hull were very compact cities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjCIWpfVdsk

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I often dream of the impossible, but ideally we would build a rail line that would be shared by STO and OC. In other words, a rail line that would serve well beyond downtown Ottawa. Somehow, we need to find a way to get past the jurisdictional hurdle to take transit integration to the next level. Rail transit is where we could most likely make this possible. The ideal case, would have a Gatineau rail line extend to employment areas of interest in the east end, including the Montfort Hospital, CMHC, NRC and CSIS. I am sure that this would be a destination for many Gatineau residents, which will make transit more viable for them plus reverse flow of Ottawa residents going into the downtown area. In the very long-term, this could extend to the South Orleans Transitway corridor.

The development of the Ottawa-Gatineau metro area will have increasing transportation problems when we cannot develop effective interprovincial transportation infrastructure. Just look at the bridge issue. If we solve the bridge issue, we will be driving more people into vehicles if our rail network is hobbled by connection issues downtown. Just think of Ottawa-Gatineau at 2 million and still no new bridges and still no effective rail network that glaringly features clumsy connections downtown and that forces thousands to go through downtown to make a trip across the metro area. It is like we are still in the 1930s when both Ottawa and Hull were very compact cities.

Maybe now is the time for a federal capital region? Both governments could theoretically gain politically jettisoning what are safe opposition and at best swing ridings. Seems impossible but it almost seems easier than a unified rail network with the current arrangement.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The STO documents identify a proposed station at Wellington and Lyon (where there is a lot of space). Building a station under Sparks offers a large increase in cost and a very tight, uncomfortable turn.

Between the Memorial Arch and Queen? If that is what ends up happening, I hope Ottawa adds entrances on the north corners of Queen and Lyon to facilitate transfers.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I actually agree that being sore about non paying STO customers is mostly pointless. The revenue is pretty small in the scheme of things.

I agree. The way I see it, both Ottawa and Gatineau should leave inter-provincial transit transfers "free". At the end of the day, it would be pretty close to revenue neutral. If we adopt a system where riders would have to pay two fares, transit ridership would go down, causing greater congestion, which is a bigger issue than the lost revenue from the few "free" transfers.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I often dream of the impossible, but ideally we would build a rail line that would be shared by STO and OC.

That seems technologically infeasible. OC's system is automated; STO's will have drivers, since the trams run at street level.