Electric Vehicle Charging Stations in Ottawa-Gatineau

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Strawman. Not buying a Tesla does not automatically equal owning a gas car.

This is how you can tell the Tesla fanclub has gone from fandom to cult. There's now religious tests. So no EV counts unless it's a Tesla. The true religion test. It's why you think the alternative to a Tesla is a gas car. And apparently one where it costs $1500 in maintenance annually no less.....

Truenorth, to answer your earlier question first, it takes about 10 hours to charge up 18kwh on my 120V 'standard wall plug' which I would have no problems with, but with a busy social life, occasionally I'm plugging in at midnight, and going to work at 7:30am. Add to that winter range, and I'm down to like 40km of range on a January day, or 70 in the summer without that full charge (60km and 85+km, respectively).

With a fully-dead tesla, it would take like how long, a couple days to get to 50-60kwh? Charging every single night on a 120V, 12A service would probably be acceptable for a period of time, but eventually you'd be fully dead and need a more-than-24-hour top-up.

IF I had an issue and had to limit the Volt to only 8A service on a 120 line, I'd be up in the 12-13 hour charging time, which is way too long. Having the X5, my charge time is down to about 3.5 hours.

Also, I set to entirely charge at night after midnight with the X5 so my costs are much reduced, rather than charging at 7pm-12am. Mind you, its not a huge savings, so the decision to install the X5 was purely for convenience and charging speed. Emotionally, I hate when the gas engine turns on, so I really really need that car to be fully charged when I'm ready to take it out.

As for Tesla and their fandom, the cars are just plain amazing. I'd recommend taking a test drive. My previous car was a joke, and totally falling apart while I patiently waited for delivery of my Model 3. I couldn't wait any longer and so I'm stuck with my Volt for a couple years. Don't regret the decision at all, the Volt is also amazing, but for different reasons.

I'd say the all-electric technology requires about 3-4 years of rapid advancement, and then we won't even be having this debate anymore. As it stands, I feel more comfortable with my little golf cart motor to get me through extra-long road trips, although I die a little inside every time the gas engine kicks on, not only for the environment, but the literal burning of money. I haven't gotten a tank of gas since early March, which is not too shabby. In the winter though, I had to fill up every 4 weeks on average.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Truenorth, to answer your earlier question first, it takes about 10 hours to charge up 18kwh on my 120V 'standard wall plug' which I would have no problems with, but with a busy social life, occasionally I'm plugging in at midnight, and going to work at 7:30am. Add to that winter range, and I'm down to like 40km of range on a January day, or 70 in the summer without that full charge (60km and 85+km, respectively).

That adds a ton of context. Thanks!

For your use case, makes a lot of sense for why you installed the charger. I've also met some EV owners who simply never installed a charger because they didn't commute enough to necessitate it. I'd personally be in that category if I had an EV (bigger problem for me is living in a condo....).

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

With a fully-dead tesla, it would take like how long, a couple days to get to 50-60kwh? Charging every single night on a 120V, 12A service would probably be acceptable for a period of time, but eventually you'd be fully dead and need a more-than-24-hour top-up.

Sure. But a fully dead Tesla also means you drove 400 km without charging. I think the likelihood is high that the car is going to parked a while after driving 400 km straight.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

IF I had an issue and had to limit the Volt to only 8A service on a 120 line, I'd be up in the 12-13 hour charging time, which is way too long. Having the X5, my charge time is down to about 3.5 hours.

This is ultimately what I think having a charger comes down to. Convenience and time. And the question is whether this justifies the added cost. Especially in a situation where someone needs to up service to install.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

As for Tesla and their fandom, the cars are just plain amazing.

Don't get me wrong. I love Teslas. I've made enough to pay for a Model 3 on the stock (if I had a place to park one!).... I know folks who work at the company. Including in the design studio. Go back 4 pages and you'll see me defending Tesla's right to proprietary charging infrastructure and preferential parking spots.

But I also think if you love EVs, you need to have a more holistic appreciation of the landscape and the electrification of transport in general. And it's really annoying when Tesla owners act like zealous converts who've discovered a new religion.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I'd say the all-electric technology requires about 3-4 years of rapid advancement, and then we won't even be having this debate anymore.

There's no debate over electric cars. The debate is about what level of electrification is appropriate to each circumstance. Not everyone can or is willing to spend $50k to get a Tesla. Or even $40k to get a fully electric vehicle and then also put up with planning roadtrips around chargers and such. For some, that Volt maybe the right solution.

I think this discusison will be less myopic once more plug-ins (both BEV and PHEV) come online. By 2022, there's supposed to be about a hundred plug-in models on the market:

https://www.autonews.com/article/2018100...ied-models-slated-to-arrive-through-2022

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

As it stands, I feel more comfortable with my little golf cart motor to get me through extra-long road trips, although I die a little inside every time the gas engine kicks on, not only for the environment, but the literal burning of money. I haven't gotten a tank of gas since early March, which is not too shabby. In the winter though, I had to fill up every 4 weeks on average.

I'd say you should be happy that you are doing more than most people. Personally, I don't feel a ton of guilt because I live in a condo, take public transit to work, and have cut back substantially on eating meat (for both health and environmental reasons).

I'd caution that EVs don't in any way change the other issues that cities face. An EV does nothing to combat urban sprawl. If anything, it makes the problem worse, since the folks best positioned to both use and benefit from EVs are suburban family home dwellers.

Simply driving an EV isn't going to do much if they're also heating and lighting a 3000 sqft home and living a lifestyle where 2-3 people in their household have to drive 30+ mins to work. At that point, that EV is more akin to plenary indulgence sold by the church in the middle ages than an actual honest effort at reducing their footprint.

Sort of reminds me of the recycling discussion. If you ever bring up the environment with the average person, they'll immediately get all defensive and tell you they recycle. Not too many remember that "recycle" was the third of the "three Rs" and that "Reduce" and "Reuse" were ahead of "Recycle" for a reason.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'd caution that EVs don't in any way change the other issues that cities face. An EV does nothing to combat urban sprawl. If anything, it makes the problem worse, since the folks best positioned to both use and benefit from EVs are suburban family home dwellers.

Simply driving an EV isn't going to do much if they're also heating and lighting a 3000 sqft home and living a lifestyle where 2-3 people in their household have to drive 30+ mins to work. At that point, that EV is more akin to plenary indulgence sold by the church in the middle ages than an actual honest effort at reducing their footprint.

Sort of reminds me of the recycling discussion. If you ever bring up the environment with the average person, they'll immediately get all defensive and tell you they recycle. Not too many remember that "recycle" was the third of the "three Rs" and that "Reduce" and "Reuse" were ahead of "Recycle" for a reason.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Nissan Leafs and Bolts might depreciate, but I can assure you that Model3's will keep their value - its because of the battery technology, virtually no degradation over time (unlike 1st gen Leaf). Although it is expensive upfront, you total cost of ownership after 8 years should be equivalent to a Honda Accord

That may be true, but to me the rapid depreciation is an advantage as it brings the cost of the vehicle within my budget.

If you are 6'5", I think that's Elon's height, Bolt is really not for you, that is really cramped.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-headroom-tall-people/

Thanks for letting me know, I hadn't tried the Bolt yet.

regardless you are welcome to come by and see mine, that's how the community works, if you buy we both get free Supercharger credits

Thanks for the offer. My wife actually found someone nearby through the local "Mom's group" who has both a Tesla 3 and a Leaf, so I will probably have a look on the weekend.

Here's a pic of my setup, charge in driveway in summer, in garage in winter.
32AMP 240volt draw (40amp breaker)

Thanks. Interestingly I read that Tesla has stopped including a NEMA 14-50 adapter (for class 2 charging) with their vehicles . You can still buy one though. In the end, you probably want to have a wall charger (EVSE) installed at your home and keep the mobile EVSE in the trunk in case of emergency.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I get the caution. But I think if you don't drive that much, you could probably charge with just a standard outlet overnight, with appropriate caution for the right breakers or a programmable charger to limit the draw.

Let's assume you commute from Barrhaven to Gatineau. 30 km each way. A Leaf charges at 8 km/hr from a standard outlet. So 7.5 hrs to fuel up for that 60 km roundtrip commute. Orleans to Kanata is probably the most extreme commute in Ottawa. It's 40 km. So 10 hrs to charge that roundtrip.

The likelihood of your car being parked 8+ hrs overnight is reasonably high. Most people are probably parking their cars closer to 12 hrs overnight. The more I talk to EV owners, the more I realize that very few people actually need higher service and an L2 charger at home. The average commuter (especially in Ottawa) just doesn't come close to enough daily driving and limited parking to really need those charge rates. You should consider your usage and see if you really need additional service. You also have the option of getting it after you purchase the car and figure out your real world patterns.

While for typical use, you might be correct, but you also need to be prepared for non-typical days. As OTownandDown said, sometimes you might be out late and not get as much time to charge. If the next day you plan to an errand after work or go out again, then you could be at risk of running your battery down. With a Level 2 charger, you are pretty much guaranteed a "full charge"* every night.

* Most EV manufacturers (including Tesla) recommend that you only charge to 80% most of the time, to prolong the life of the battery.

I submitted my application to Hydro Ottawa for a Level 2 charger and have already been approved and was quoted a cost of just shy of $2000 after tax for the charger and installation. The electrician seemed to imply that a 100A service would be fine as long as I don't have a hot tub (which I don't).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Ok then, spend $30k on a gas car, and $2500/year for gas, and $1500 for maintenance

Or spend about $20k on a 2016 or 2017 EV and still save that money on gas and maintenance. Meanwhile you save approximately $4000 total (or $800 a year) in interest from the extra $30k you would have to borrow (assuming a 5 year loan at 5% interest).

The battery issues with the early EVs (especially Leafs) have been mostly* resolved. Teslas are nice, but I consider them the BMW of EVs. Many BMW drivers have a similar attitude that everyone should be buying Bimmers and don't understand that not everyone can afford them.

* Those in extremely hot climates (like Texas and Arizona) can still have battery cooling issues on some EVs.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

As for Tesla and their fandom, the cars are just plain amazing. I'd recommend taking a test drive. My previous car was a joke, and totally falling apart while I patiently waited for delivery of my Model 3. I couldn't wait any longer and so I'm stuck with my Volt for a couple years. Don't regret the decision at all, the Volt is also amazing, but for different reasons.

I'm in a similar situation. My existing car doesn't have much life left in it and even if I could afford a Model 3, I can't wait a couple years for it. Once I buy a car, I don't want to replace it in a few years (I plan to drive it into the ground, or at least until it is no longer reliable).

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I'm in a similar situation. My existing car doesn't have much life left in it and even if I could afford a Model 3, I can't wait a couple years for it. Once I buy a car, I don't want to replace it in a few years (I plan to drive it into the ground, or at least until it is no longer reliable).

Well, on that front, there's a reason Volt owners are a weird cult. Everyone says 'oh, it's so complicated for a car, it'll be so expensive to fix' Aside from the occasional lemon story online (which is inevitable) I think Volts get a good reliability rating.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Well, on that front, there's a reason Volt owners are a weird cult. Everyone says 'oh, it's so complicated for a car, it'll be so expensive to fix' Aside from the occasional lemon story online (which is inevitable) I think Volts get a good reliability rating.

Who says a Volt is complicated? Maybe compared to a pure EV, but it is simple compared to parallel hybrid. The issue with series hybrids (like the volt) is reduced efficiency when running on gas.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

While for typical use, you might be correct, but you also need to be prepared for non-typical days. As OTownandDown said, sometimes you might be out late and not get as much time to charge. If the next day you plan to an errand after work or go out again, then you could be at risk of running your battery down. With a Level 2 charger, you are pretty much guaranteed a "full charge"* every night.

I see this as contextual. For example, if you're driving a PHEV, how much do you really care if your gas engine comes on? $2000 spent on EVSE buys a lot of gas after all.

And if you're driving a BEV, as long as you have enough for the next day, there's no need to aim for "full charge" (80% or otherwise). Given that we're getting to the point where even the low end BEVs have >120 km in the winter, the likelihood of being insufficiently charged from just an outlet overnight is probably low. And the better the pack (battery thermal management), or larger the battery, the less of an issue here.

All this is not to say that I don't think EVSEs are useful. But I do wonder if people are buying them more for peace-of-mind and convenience than actual utility. And I hope people aren't getting dissuaded from considering EVs simply because they perceive that they need EVSE too.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I submitted my application to Hydro Ottawa for a Level 2 charger and have already been approved and was quoted a cost of just shy of $2000 after tax for the charger and installation. The electrician seemed to imply that a 100A service would be fine as long as I don't have a hot tub (which I don't).

Sounds easy enough. Was it a substantial amount of paperwork? How long did it take you from submitting it to getting the inspection and quote?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I'm in a similar situation. My existing car doesn't have much life left in it and even if I could afford a Model 3, I can't wait a couple years for it. Once I buy a car, I don't want to replace it in a few years (I plan to drive it into the ground, or at least until it is no longer reliable).

Not sure how long you can wait or if you'd consider new at all. But there's a lot of PHEV and BEV models coming online this year and next year. Added benefit is that larger battery new models tend to force depreciation on older models. So even if buying used, might be some opportunity to save for you.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I see this as contextual. For example, if you're driving a PHEV, how much do you really care if your gas engine comes on? $2000 spent on EVSE buys a lot of gas after all.

I agree that for a PHEV a class 1 charger is likely good enough, especially considering the battery will be small and won't take long to charge. Also, given that you can fall back to gas, the need to keep an EVSE in your trunk is reduced.

And if you're driving a BEV, as long as you have enough for the next day, there's no need to aim for "full charge" (80% or otherwise). Given that we're getting to the point where even the low end BEVs have >120 km in the winter, the likelihood of being insufficiently charged from just an outlet overnight is probably low. And the better the pack (battery thermal management), or larger the battery, the less of an issue here.

As I said, >95% (>99%?) of the time you will would have enough. It is the times that you don't that are the problem. As public, quick chargers become more ubiquitous, this becomes less of an issue (assuming your car supports them, which not all do).

All this is not to say that I don't think EVSEs are useful. But I do wonder if people are buying them more for peace-of-mind and convenience than actual utility. And I hope people aren't getting dissuaded from considering EVs simply because they perceive that they need EVSE too.

It is true that it comes down to range anxiety. Even if it doesn't save you money, if it saves you stress, that is also worth something.

As for the cost of the EVSE, even when buying a used EV, the cost of the EVSE is small compared to the cost of the EV itself. Additionally, given that the EVSE will last longer than your car (most are designed to last more than 10 years), it becomes a much longer investment, so the cost per year becomes very small. Even if you have to replace the actual EVSE, most of the installation costs (all if you do it yourself) are reusable on the replacement EVSE.

Sounds easy enough. Was it a substantial amount of paperwork? How long did it take you from submitting it to getting the inspection and quote?

It was very easy and no there wasn't much paperwork. Just fill out the application (name, phone number, email, Hydro Ottawa account number, and address).

I did that on the weekend and was approved Monday morning. The electrician then sent me an email with a few questions about the install (Service size, if I have a hot tub, desired location of charger, approximate distance of charger from panel and type of ceiling in basement). I replied right away and received the quote later that afternoon. Some electricians might want to do come to your house to do the assessment so YMMV.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not sure how long you can wait or if you'd consider new at all. But there's a lot of PHEV and BEV models coming online this year and next year. Added benefit is that larger battery new models tend to force depreciation on older models. So even if buying used, might be some opportunity to save for you.

Thanks for the advice. I was hoping to get another winter out of my car, but I am not sure if it will last that long or not (I want to be ready if it does suddenly need another repair). Also, I am anticipating a longer than normal commute over the next 6 months (and transit is not an option unfortunately), so getting one sooner than later will result in additional cost savings.

I am already noticing that most used EVs are listed as a good or great price on Auto Trader, which indicates to me that the prices are already going down.

[Truenorth00]

I've posted this before. There's a hundred plug-in models coming online by 2022. Link here lays them out by year:

https://www.autonews.com/article/2018100...ied-models-slated-to-arrive-through-2022

So plenty of options coming online this year and next. I am also excited to see the Ionity network expanding to rival Tesla's charging network in Europe.

https://electrek.co/2019/05/27/ionity-100-stations-europe/

Their North American cousin is picking up steam and building a network to rival Tesla here:

https://insideevs.com/news/349187/video-tesla-losing-supercharger-advantage/

With their Canadian subsidiary ramping up:

https://mobilesyrup.com/2019/02/14/volkswagen-electrify-canada-project-progressing/

They'll have the Quebec-Windsor corridor by the end of 2020:

https://www.electrify-canada.ca/locate-charger

This is why I am personally holding off on shopping for another car. We're on the cusp of a seriously competitive plug-in landscape. I think car shopping will be a lot more interesting at the end of 2020 and beyond. Heck, if all the competition does is put serious pressure on Tesla's pricing, that would still be a win for us consumers.

[Tesladom]

Battery supply will still be the largest factor, I think Canadian import allocation for Hyundai Kona EV is only 500 units or so in Canada for 2019.
Sure most manufacturers will come out with Electric cars, but they are more Halos to get people into showrooms to drive off with ICE models.
Tesla will produce nearly 400,000 cars this year, probably will not make a profit, with an ASP of $50k+, don't think GM can make one profitably for $25k anytime soon, plus their dealer model actually works against the concept of electric cars (no maintenance), also vs Telsa that does not need to fork over 8-10% profit margin to dealers.
We are at least 5 years away from any type of real commercialization from mainstream manufacturers of BEVs... minimum. I'm willing to guess that by 2025, GM (& others) is still under 10% BEV in total sales. They have too much legacy
Might see more upstarts like NIO or Rivian etc.., I think they are the competition

[OTownandDown]

This is a bit off-topic, but I need to gush:

I was in the US last weekend and used a Lime scooter four times and loved every minute of it.

Discounting the NIMBY's and city council members who will inevitably clutch their pearls and think of the children, these dockless electric scooters have totally changed transportation in the inner city in the US, even more than UBER. There, I said it.

[Tesladom]

Seeing a lot more around here as well, our climate is a huge factor against these over here

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

This is a bit off-topic, but I need to gush:

I was in the US last weekend and used a Lime scooter four times and loved every minute of it.

Discounting the NIMBY's and city council members who will inevitably clutch their pearls and think of the children, these dockless electric scooters have totally changed transportation in the inner city in the US, even more than UBER. There, I said it.

in SF, $1 + 0.15 per minute and 13 mph max speed. Not really sure how competitive this is other than for short trips around the neighbourhood.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Battery supply will still be the largest factor, I think Canadian import allocation for Hyundai Kona EV is only 500 units or so in Canada for 2019.

Everybody and their dog is building their own integrated battery pack manufacturing facility like the Gigafactory. This won’t be the case beyond 2019.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Sure most manufacturers will come out with Electric cars, but they are more Halos to get people into showrooms to drive off with ICE models.

There’s that purity test again. What does it matter if it’s a halo car to someone specifically shopping for an EV? And given that one third of Canada lives in multi-family dwellings where charging is an issue, there’s a strong argument to be made for PHEVs for a lot of people who may only be able to charge sporadically (work, malls, etc.).

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Tesla will produce nearly 400,000 cars this year, probably will not make a profit, with an ASP of $50k+, don't think GM can make one profitably for $25k anytime soon, plus their dealer model actually works against the concept of electric cars (no maintenance), also vs Telsa that does not need to fork over 8-10% profit margin to dealers.

Tesla execs or fans lecturing any other OEM about profitable auto manufacturing at this point is laughable. Tesla not having dealers is irrelevant when they don’t make a profit as a company without dealers. As it stands, Tesla’s at real risk of failure in the coming months to years unless things turnaround dramatically. Only so many times you can paper over $900+ million quarterly loss with capital raising. On the other hand nobody has to legitimately worry that buying any car from GM would see them end up with an unsupportable paperweight that they can’t spares and servicing for.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

We are at least 5 years away from any type of real commercialization from mainstream manufacturers of BEVs... minimum. I'm willing to guess that by 2025, GM (& others) is still under 10% BEV in total sales. They have too much legacy

GM produces 10 million cars worldwide per year. If 10% were BEVs, they’d be making 2.5x the sales of Tesla today. And that’s just GM. There’s also Volkswagen and Toyota behind them.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Might see more upstarts like NIO or Rivian etc.., I think they are the competition

If they can scale. Tesla got lucky to grow in an era where there is so much money floating around looking for an investment. That era is coming to a close.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

This is a bit off-topic, but I need to gush:

I was in the US last weekend and used a Lime scooter four times and loved every minute of it.

Discounting the NIMBY's and city council members who will inevitably clutch their pearls and think of the children, these dockless electric scooters have totally changed transportation in the inner city in the US, even more than UBER. There, I said it.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

in SF, $1 + 0.15 per minute and 13 mph max speed. Not really sure how competitive this is other than for short trips around the neighbourhood.

There’s upsides and downsides. I saw and used them in California. I’ve seen them elsewhere too (Auckland and Bogotá for example). The issue, however, is that people simply seem to dump them all over the place. Literally see them simply dumped near bus stops. H

The company itself is very sketchy. They resort to Uber and AirBNB like active ignorance and subversion of local laws. And rely on a gig economy workforce to retrieve, charge and maintain those scooters and bikes.

I’d argue that Bixi is probably a better and more responsible model and outfit, run by a local public authority. Doubtful too that e-scooters can be a profitable endeavour for a private company in a city that gets snow 5 months of the year.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

GM produces 10 million cars worldwide per year. If 10% were BEVs, they’d be making 2.5x the sales of Tesla today. And that’s just GM. There’s also Volkswagen and Toyota behind them.

in 2025 Tesla sales will be probably around 2-3Million vehicles per year easy, China going live in late 2019, and European plant to come in 2020 timeframe, and probably 1 or 2 more in North America

Can you name any other company with such a revenue growth chart as this?

in 2007 RIM, Nokia, Mototola etc all dismissed the iPhone
in 2000's Sears, ToysRUs, Kmart all dismissed Amazon

People just like you have been wrong for last 10 years about the death of Tesla, I find it laughable that people are still calling for it.
GM et al have too much legacy in their business, just like Sears it will cripple them and they will eventually die off, only 1 or 2 will survive

Apple, Google, Amazon - they are all investing billions in self driving cars, it's the next Trillion$$ market, if you this Elon Musk is an idiot, go for it, but now you are saying that Apple, Google, Amazon are also idiots. Cities who adapt to the self driving robo taxi car will win, and I think a lot of the public transit infrastructure will become redundant, especially outside city cores