West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Horus]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

4


- For Aylmers LRT I actually went for a route passing by Lucerne Blvd instead of Chemin d'Aylmer with a brench going to Rivermead.

Aside from ease of implementation, there is no reason to use Lucerne as the routing for LRT. It is the furthest from virtually all of the population of Aylmer and has no possible chance of development along the south side as it is all parkland/riverbank/floodplain. Even the north side is almost entirely golf courses from Vanier to the Champlain bridge. This route would absolutely require connecting buses at every station, really defeating the purpose of putting in this type of transit system.

For the record though, I am completely on board to converting the old Eddy building to a transit hub.

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by Horus

Aside from ease of implementation, there is no reason to use Lucerne as the routing for LRT. It is the furthest from virtually all of the population of Aylmer and has no possible chance of development along the south side as it is all parkland/riverbank/floodplain. Even the north side is almost entirely golf courses from Vanier to the Champlain bridge. This route would absolutely require connecting buses at every station, really defeating the purpose of putting in this type of transit system.

For the record though, I am completely on board to converting the old Eddy building to a transit hub.

The reason why I decided to go with Lucerne is to offer a fast LRT almost light metro speed between Vanier and Parc Moussette. Using Chemin d'Aylmer would require extensive road work, while Lucerne has the adventage of having a wide turf on the side of the road that could easily be converted to rail. Also using that route would benefit people living in south Aylmer and more globaly the densest part of the sector witch is the western part (after Fraser street going to the west).
Lucerne & Chemin d'Aylmer both have wide Golf Fields between Aymer and Hull so that woudn't make much of a difference.
Also this route would serve Aylmer from north to south, while the current planning avoids half of Aylmer (south part)


Connections would only be required at Galeries d'Aylmer, Vanier and Rivermead for people living along ''Chemin D'Aylmer'' and up north.
Between Pine and Vanier the Lucerne is acutally a busy street with many condos and housing nearby.

[Tesladom]

These Gatineau LRT ideas are out of this World? Let's be realistic, Confederation Lines will have over 10,000 passenger/hour capacity in each direction, even in a scaled down version, say 5000 passengers per hour, there is nowhere close to the population density along these proposed corridors to justify this.

I think the next logical phase is an integrated approach (yeah right this will happen) between Gatineau and Ottawa to create a downtown loop... that's gonna be another $2Billion easy!

Nothing's gonna happen until at least 2036 on this front, maybe by then the concept of public transit will be very different with self driving pods/people movers etc...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

These Gatineau LRT ideas are out of this World? Let's be realistic, Confederation Lines will have over 10,000 passenger/hour capacity in each direction, even in a scaled down version, say 5000 passengers per hour, there is nowhere close to the population density along these proposed corridors to justify this.

Tesla fan opposed to public transit investment. Shocker.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

I think the next logical phase is an integrated approach (yeah right this will happen) between Gatineau and Ottawa to create a downtown loop... that's gonna be another $2Billion easy!

Nothing's gonna happen until at least 2036 on this front, maybe by then the concept of public transit will be very different with self driving pods/people movers etc...

Non-grade separated is cheaper to build than the Confederation Line. $2.1 billion is the cost estimate for the entire plan so far.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/gatineau-aylmer-ottawa-light-rail-1.4713843

And yes, about 2030. Transit takes time to build.

And no, we won't have "self-driving pods/people movers" by then. Or ever. There's no physical room or money to build Musk's fantasies. Especially when you get past his sketchy back of the envelope math that always plays down real world costs on every one of his endeavours. We won't even get into the fantasy that there will be a sound regulatory framework to operate fully autonomous vehicles on public roads by then....

Here in the real world, professional planner need to plan for reality and what can actually be funded and built. And a city of nearly 400 000 in a region of of 1.4 million is perfectly capable of supporting a few at-grade tram lines.

[Tesladom]

Yeah, $2.1Billion spitball estimate, and trains at grade, that's really going to work.

Public transit is only really good to move people in dense urban environments

The self driving pod is not just Musk's dream, it is the entire end goal of Uber, Lyft, Waymo etc... etc...

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Not too prestigious......just real.

Talk about serendipity and co-incidence, per @kmcamp in the other thread is the reply to your point;
along with all-so-many-numerous incidents in Calgary, Houston, and other surface LRT cities : Kitchener's ION :

https://www.kitchenertoday.com/local-news/ion-train-involved-in-a-crash-1483536

Idiot drivers are bad enough elsewhere in cities used to surface LRT; Kitchener's incident is only the beginning for them.
And to try and do the same in Ottawa - full of idiots, morons, self-centered inattentive jerks.....
and then there are the weekly if not daily parades of demonstrators and purposeful traffic-blockers.....

These are why I always was aghast/against surface rail in the downtown core, right from the start, even in the Chiarelli N-S line.
It would have been a neverending traffic congestion and unreliability nightmare. No.

As I mentioned before, as soon as the river is crossed, QueensPark and QuebecCity are out of the funding. It would have to fall totally to the Feds.
Particular to that is also, as I mentioned, that this would constitute the best opportunity for both Gat to LRT into Ottawa and Ott to LRT into Gatineau.
As a quid-pro-quo on both cities' part, it would be the master element of a trade to get both done,
and the Feds would jump at the opportunity for equal cooperation and a PR look-and-feel-good shot.

And yes, you are correct, Ottawa has always been screwed for our funding, with other municipalities getting 60 to 80 to 100 percent out of QueensPark.
IMO this is just a City of Ottawa reality, and always has been, and will be.

As for moving Gatineau passengers on the C-Line.....well that was going to be in one way or another anyway.
As reflection of this, just look at the streams of STO buses in Ottawa, AND the streams of OC-T buses in Gatineau.
It's up to our political doorknobs to - make the best of it - grab the opportunity -.

NoJoy!

If careless drivers crashing into trams is an issue, maybe we should just close off some streets to private cars, rather than spending billions on tunneling. Yeah people might complain it's unfair, but that's just how it is— one person misbehaving is all it takes to ruin commuting for everyone.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Yeah, $2.1Billion spitball estimate, and trains at grade, that's really going to work.

Guessing you've never left Ottawa. Trams are pretty common elsewhere. And they work just fine. Use the range on that Tesla to get to Toronto and checkout how packed their streetcars are.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Public transit is only really good to move people in dense urban environments

What's your definition of "dense urban environment"? Transit usage in Gatineau certain shows they have the numbers to support further investment.

This kind of ignorance is so typical in Ottawa. Transit is only for "big" cities. Apparently, nobody got the memo that at 1.4 million in the Ottawa metro area, Ottawa is a "big" city. And big cities don't build transit while deciding that 28% of the metro population shouldn't be covered because they are automatically not "dense" and "urban" by virtue of speaking a different language and living on the other side of a river.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

The self driving pod is not just Musk's dream, it is the entire end goal of Uber, Lyft, Waymo etc... etc...

Regardless of whose dream it is, getting the technology and regulatory framework in place to operate this globally and locally is not happening in 50 years, let alone 15 years.

If you don't believe me, look at aviation. Three dimensional airspace is a far easier environment in which to avoid collisions. And aviation has constantly led automation. Yet, after decades of automation and even operating remotely piloted UAVs in mixed airspace, there's not even a hint of discussion of going to a single pilot cockpit from two pilots. And you think people are going to agree to fully driverless cars operating on public roads with cyclists and pedestrians and a far higher likelihood of collision, within 15-20 years?

[Tesladom]

Toronto's streetcars only work in the most dense part of the city... that's why they work.
This idea of boarding a streetcar from end of Aylmer to go to Les Promenades or somewhere else is ludicrous, there's not enough people and it would take far too long.

In Ottawa, we should have a better system within the urban core of the city, say from St-Laurent to Westboro (pretty much current LRT), down to Billings to the south, then everything. We should have multiple lines in that core as opposed to trying to feed all the suburbs.
For example, a line under Bank street to Billings Bridge would be good, also a line along Rideau to St-Laurent.
I think the idea of pushing LRT to all corners of the city is not the right approach

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

If careless drivers crashing into trams is an issue, maybe we should just close off some streets to private cars, rather than spending billions on tunneling. Yeah people might complain it's unfair, but that's just how it is— one person misbehaving is all it takes to ruin commuting for everyone.

Good Day.

Yep - one idiot causes a LOT of damage and delay. I am not disagreeing with you, but.

Idiot drivers are a bane even to buses.... witness the bus backup on Slater just coming to Elgin when the idiot parked in the BRT lane at rush hour.
Buses backed up big time as they tried to manoeuver around the turkey, and nobody authorized the cops to ticket-AND-TOW asap. So.
Also witness the idiots in Toronto who turn into the Queens tram tunnel entrance. and end up hi-hung on the rails and ties well into the tunnel.
And the expense and innovation and extent they have gone to in order to TRY to stop it.
Or the idiots turning into, or running the reds on, the STO Rapibus corridor.

IE: ALL the options have problems - surface or tunnel, separated or in-road. Cost. Nothing is perfect. But.
The closest we can get is a RoW-separated, tunnel-through-downtown, system. The C-Line is. IMO - Thankfully.
And for reliability's sake, any STO LRT should enter a separated RoW and tunnel upon entering Ottawa downtown. That is Ottawa's perogative and preference.
Similarly any extension of the T-Line into Gatineau should be RoW-separated for our preference of practicality and reliability,
and is already mandated if at that time we are still running DMUs. No in-road surface.
In the meantime, what works for Gatineau in Gatineau is up to Gatineau. Ottawa would have NO say in their turf.

Just what is.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Toronto's streetcars only work in the most dense part of the city... that's why they work.

Guess you've never been to Toronto. I suggest you go to the Beaches in Toronto and tell them their streetcar service is all wrong.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

This idea of boarding a streetcar from end of Aylmer to go to Les Promenades or somewhere else is ludicrous, there's not enough people and it would take far too long.

It's interesting that you think a streetcar is not viable in Gatineau with less traffic than Toronto where half the streetcar routes go through downtown Toronto. So which is it? Does it take destiny to support a route? Or does it require that routes go fast enough?

And the only thing ludicrous here is the idea that such a trip would not be feasible by public transit. That comes from someone who clearly doesn't get how public transit works or even uses public transit. It'd be about half hour or less with transit from Aylmer to Les Promenades with a tram and the Rapibus. Hardly onerous.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

In Ottawa, we should have a better system within the urban core of the city, say from St-Laurent to Westboro (pretty much current LRT), down to Billings to the south, then everything. We should have multiple lines in that core as opposed to trying to feed all the suburbs.

Ahh yes. That Ottawa centric view where downtown Gatineau is automatically written off as not part of the urban "core" despite tens of thousands of Ottawa residents working there and residential density on par with any trendy neighbourhood like Westboro.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

For example, a line under Bank street to Billings Bridge would be good, also a line along Rideau to St-Laurent.

Red herring. Gatineau transit is about serving Gatineau, not just Ottawa. And presumably that is what the governments of Quebec and Gatineau are paying for. Ottawa and Ontario can pay for subways of their own.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

I think the idea of pushing LRT to all corners of the city is not the right approach

Thankfully, what you think is not relevant to any planner or politician funding these ideas. Nor would most voters in this city agree with their hood becoming a "transit desert" because some random dude decided transit was entirely unviable after buying a Tesla.

When was the last time you actually took transit? Be honest.

[lrt's friend]

I think the idea of pushing LRT to all corners of the city is not the right approach

Let's substitute "4-lane boulevard" for "LRT". Do you still agree?

Maybe LRT is not needed to every corner of the city, but better transit and transit priority is needed to give an alternative to having to drive everywhere.

This will go hand and hand with designing the suburbs better with pedestrians, cyclists and transit users in mind.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Let's substitute "4-lane boulevard" for "LRT". Do you still agree?

Maybe LRT is not needed to every corner of the city, but better transit and transit priority is needed to give an alternative to having to drive everywhere.

This will go hand and hand with designing the suburbs better with pedestrians, cyclists and transit users in mind.

You're talking to someone who thinks every city below several million is undeserving of good public transit. Would bet money this person thinks Ottawa needs a lot more highways and boulevards and can't remember the last time they actually took public transit outside of a commute.

And Tesla fans are chocked full of transit haters. Starts right at the top:

https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-awkward-dislike-mass-transit/

These people don't want better cities. They want paved over American hellholes where they can drive their Teslas everywhere. And "big city" is always a moving goal for them. You'll find Tesla owners in the GTA arguing against transit since Toronto is not as big as "insert large global metro of your choice here....."

Being charitable, at best they vastly misunderstand how public transit works:

https://humantransit.org/2016/07/elon-musk-doesnt-understand-geometry.html

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2...k-doesnt-get-about-urban-transit/548843/

At worst, they are the reincarnation of every BMW driver, with some added tech bro genes in there, who view tech as the solution to every single problem. So the solution to climate change is not denser cities with better public transit. It's massive sprawl with everyone driving Teslas powered by Solarcity solar roofs.

Only when you have that mindset can a city of 400k in a metro of 1.4 million be too small and not "urban" enough to support a few tram lines.

[Tesladom]

LOL you guys are funny!!
The fact is the personal vehicle is not going away, and the only people who live or will live car free will do so in the urban core of any city, because that's where it makes sense.
To call me anti-transit is just misinformed, and obviously you did not read my posts.
1)I forgot Gatineau? Hummm... Didn't I post that next priority should be the downtown loop?
2) If I'm so anti-transit, why do I support greater capacity LRT options to be focused on urban Core? The LRT to Trim Road and all corners of the suburbs will not help much except get people elected, people see the price tag and everybody wants their piece of the cake, we will have empty trains rolling into suburbs while buses will be jam packed along Bank street

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

LOL you guys are funny!!
The fact is the personal vehicle is not going away, and the only people who live or will live car free will do so in the urban core of any city, because that's where it makes sense.
To call me anti-transit is just misinformed, and obviously you did not read my posts.
1)I forgot Gatineau? Hummm... Didn't I post that next priority should be the downtown loop?
2) If I'm so anti-transit, why do I support greater capacity LRT options to be focused on urban Core? The LRT to Trim Road and all corners of the suburbs will not help much except get people elected, people see the price tag and everybody wants their piece of the cake, we will have empty trains rolling into suburbs while buses will be jam packed along Bank street

What's not funny is your sad attempt to divert from a discussion about transit in Gatineau (funded by Gatineau ratepayers and Quebec taxpayers no less) to a discussion about a subway under Bank St. in a weak attempt to fly your supposed pro-transit credentials. Supporting a specific transit idea doesn't suddenly make you pro-transit. Opposing higer-order transit investment for 400 000 people certainly does make you anti-transit though.

Also, who are you to tell Gatineau residents where their trams should go and who they should serve? Apparently, the idea that the majority of Gatineau residents live and work in Gatineau is beyond contemplation.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What's not funny is your sad attempt to divert from a discussion about transit in Gatineau (funded by Gatineau ratepayers and Quebec taxpayers no less)

Yeah... OK there.... I told you what I think the next step is for Gatineau

Originally Posted by Tesladom

I think the next logical phase is an integrated approach (yeah right this will happen) between Gatineau and Ottawa to create a downtown loop... that's gonna be another $2Billion easy!

Notice how I wrote "integrated approach"? That's they key

Go ahead and build an LRT to Wakefield like suggested on this page, I least I can also use it to commute from my cottage!

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Yeah... OK there.... I told you what I think the next step is for Gatineau


Notice how I wrote "integrated approach"? That's they key

Go ahead and build an LRT to Wakefield like suggested on this page, I least I can also use it to commute from my cottage!

First, not many here are advocating for LRT to Wakefield, especially not Truenorth00 who is usually adamant that LRT expansion come with a strong business case.

Second, you think the next step should be construction of something that, by your own admission, isn't going to happen. This means you think Gatineau should do nothing when it comes to rapid transit. That means you are anti-transit - or at least anti-Gatineau-transit.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Yeah... OK there.... I told you what I think the next step is for Gatineau

Sure. Your next step for Gatineau is apparently all about commuters from Ottawa. Who gives a s**t about where Gatineau residents live and work right?

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Notice how I wrote "integrated approach"? That's they key

Go ahead and build an LRT to Wakefield like suggested on this page, I least I can also use it to commute from my cottage!

A strawman argument about LRT to the sticks isn't going to make you sound any smarter or bolster credibility. Try not to cut yourself on that edge!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

First, not many here are advocating for LRT to Wakefield, especially not Truenorth00 who is usually adamant that LRT expansion come with a strong business case.

Second, you think the next step should be construction of something that, by your own admission, isn't going to happen. This means you think Gatineau should do nothing when it comes to rapid transit. That means you are anti-transit - or at least anti-Gatineau-transit.

It's a common Tesla fan trait. Sadly. Typical profile and line of thought runs something like this:

They rarely if ever took transit (notice how our friend here doesn't say anything about his transit usage). So their views on public transit are entirely formed by a driver's perspective. Buying a Tesla was never about saving the planet (despite what they say). It was about buying the latest and greatest tech gadget they could afford. All the cachet of owning a Ferrari without the price tag! Well until the next great Tesla is released anyway..... And as a bonus they get to pretend they care about the environment as they evangelize electric cars as the solution for all environmental problems. Concerns about proper city planning, transit , etc. are easily dismissed because an EV solves every problem.

Their dream of a great city isn't Paris or London or Singapore. It's Los Angeles with less traffic.


There's plenty to criticize the Gatineau LRT plan on. None of those grounds include the idea that it should exclusively be a downtown loop. Only a commuter whose only interaction with the downtown core is work and whose only interaction with transit is their commute, would think that. The irony here is that a wide transit system that covers every corner of the Ottawa-Gatineau metro area would actually make it much more pleasant for drivers like him. He's not even imaginative enough to see that!

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Second, you think the next step should be construction of something that, by your own admission, isn't going to happen. This means you think Gatineau should do nothing when it comes to rapid transit. That means you are anti-transit - or at least anti-Gatineau-transit.

WTF? What planet are you from? I said it will never happen because there is no will to make it happen.

OK, I'll put on my pro-driver hat on... "We need another bridge crossing between Ottawa and Gatineau, but we know this will never happen"

There you go! I'm now anti driver and anti Gatineau!

Sadly its the truth - there will not be another crossing and we all know this, and neither will there be an integrated Ottawa-Gatineau transit system

And for the record, I do about 25% of my commutes from the Gatineau side (remember the cottage mention?), so calling me anti-gatineau is very mis-informed

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's a common Tesla fan trait. Sadly. Typical profile and line of thought runs something like this:

They rarely if ever took transit (notice how our friend here doesn't say anything about his transit usage). So their views on public transit are entirely formed by a driver's perspective. Buying a Tesla was never about saving the planet (despite what they say). It was about buying the latest and greatest tech gadget they could afford. All the cachet of owning a Ferrari without the price tag! Well until the next great Tesla is released anyway..... And as a bonus they get to pretend they care about the environment as they evangelize electric cars as the solution for all environmental problems. Concerns about proper city planning, transit , etc. are easily dismissed because an EV solves every problem.

Their dream of a great city isn't Paris or London or Singapore. It's Los Angeles with less traffic.


There's plenty to criticize the Gatineau LRT plan on. None of those grounds include the idea that it should exclusively be a downtown loop. Only a commuter whose only interaction with the downtown core is work and whose only interaction with transit is their commute would think that. The irony here is that a wide transit system that covers every corner of the Ottawa-Gatineau metro area would actually make it much more pleasant for drivers like him. He's not not even imaginative enough to see that!

I don't want to assume too much about Tesladom and I have nothing against electric cars per say - but "electric car environmentalists" or "electric car urbanists" have always struck me as wolves in sheep's clothing