West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Starting with post #1292.

The gist of it though is that the DMU's used on the Trillium Line aren't designed to be used in mixed traffic like conventional LRT trains are.

This is why I have not been pleased on how the Trillium Line upgrades have been handled all along. We have got this backwards. The original section should have been double tracked and electrified first so we could have used conventional LRT trains instead of what amounts to diesel regional trains. How do the DMUs compare for price? LRT would have allowed us to avoid total grade separation if we deemed that not necessary. We have really limited ourselves on the flexibility of how we extend the Trillium Line. The obvious one is our plans for the airport but also any plans for service into Gatineau are also limited as well as further extensions in Riverside South. I keep thinking of those Park n Ride lots that have been built both in Riverside South and Barrhaven that have very limited value since they will not connected to our long-term rail plans. A waste of money. Why are we building a new rail network tied together with baler twine? It is not convenient for riders because various rail lines cannot be connected together properly. It seems that every rail line will use different technology which means transfers and more transfers.

For something that is costing us several billion dollars, it is bad design without considering the transit user.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is why I have not been pleased on how the Trillium Line upgrades have been handled all along. We have got this backwards. The original section should have been double tracked and electrified first so we could have used conventional LRT trains instead of what amounts to diesel regional trains. How do the DMUs compare for price? LRT would have allowed us to avoid total grade separation if we deemed that not necessary. We have really limited ourselves on the flexibility of how we extend the Trillium Line. The obvious one is our plans for the airport but also any plans for service into Gatineau are also limited as well as further extensions in Riverside South. I keep thinking of those Park n Ride lots that have been built both in Riverside South and Barrhaven that have very limited value since they will not connected to our long-term rail plans. A waste of money. Why are we building a new rail network tied together with baler twine? It is not convenient for riders because various rail lines cannot be connected together properly. It seems that every rail line will use different technology which means transfers and more transfers.

For something that is costing us several billion dollars, it is bad design without considering the transit user.

The City of Ottawa has, for whatever reason, decided that any LRT to be built should be fully grade separated, regardless of vehicle type or location (see: Kanata LRT extension). It's not like the DMU's did this to us.

Other than the extension to Terasses, the next logical extension to the Trillium Line would be to extend it along the Rapibus corridor, whenever that becomes necessary. Maybe even take some pages out of MOOSE's book and extend it far east or far north (when it's necessary, of course).

While extending the Trillium Line into downtown Ottawa would be nice and save a number of people a transfer, it is absolutely unnecessary. Getting off of one train, going up an escalator and getting onto another train (that comes every 5 minutes or less) is not the end of the world. Yes, the days of milk-run buses where you never need to transfer will be over, but overall our transit system will still be far better.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The City of Ottawa has, for whatever reason, decided that any LRT to be built should be fully grade separated, regardless of vehicle type or location (see: Kanata LRT extension). It's not like the DMU's did this to us.

Other than the extension to Terasses, the next logical extension to the Trillium Line would be to extend it along the Rapibus corridor, whenever that becomes necessary.

While logical from the point of view that the existing track and ROWs are aligned, I can't see this happening. If Ottawa and OCTranspo insist that the Trillium line trains run in complete grade separation, then to fully grade separate the Rapibus corridor would be a complete nightmare and massively expensive.

The more likely situation is that Gatineau converts Rapibus to LRT by itself, and finds a suitable location for a transfer terminal to Trillium Line and/or Aylmer LRT(s).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Horus

While logical from the point of view that the existing track and ROWs are aligned, I can't see this happening. If Ottawa and OCTranspo insist that the Trillium line trains run in complete grade separation, then to fully grade separate the Rapibus corridor would be a complete nightmare and massively expensive.

The more likely situation is that Gatineau converts Rapibus to LRT by itself, and finds a suitable location for a transfer terminal to Trillium Line and/or Aylmer LRT(s).

The Rapibus suffers from the same problem that the Trillium Line does in that its alignment is too far west. It would be a great location for freight use, but not so good for passengers (especially commuters).

Personally, I would like to see them to have a future LRT line along Gréber, Fournier and Maisonneuve Boulevards. It could potentially even be extended to cross the Portage Bridge, though that route gets trickier on the south side of the river.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

For something that is costing us several billion dollars, it is bad design without considering the transit user.

The what?

I mean, hell, even LRT stations give more design consideration to buses, than to the people riding the LRT or the buses.

[J.OT13]

We're talking about the Gatineau LRT in the PoW thread, which is no longer part of the Gatineau LRT plan.

Here are the new option under consideration.

Improvements to status quo. For the love of God NO!



B1 Bus only. Way to spend hundreds of million for little additional capacity.



T1. Train only. Out of our price range despite the Mayor's ambition.



H1. Hybrid solution. Better coverage for probably the same price as rail only.



H2. Better coverage, cheaper price.



http://www.sto.ca/index.php?id=797&L=fr&...m_campaign=Information_5_scenarios_etude

[J.OT13]

I think it's a positive move that Gatineau is finally moving away from the PoW. Having two N/S Lines meeting head-to-head with thousands transferring to and from the same, already packed E/W Line was a disastrous vision. If PoW is used, it has to be the Trillium crossing. Simplified linear vision. Lets do what we can to at least start a downtown loop.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think it's a positive move that Gatineau is finally moving away from the PoW. Having two N/S Lines meeting head-to-head with thousands transferring to and from the same, already packed E/W Line was a disastrous vision. If PoW is used, it has to be the Trillium crossing. Simplified linear vision. Lets do what we can to at least start a downtown loop.

Agreed. I think I'm coming around to H1 or H2... They both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I feel H2 maybe wins out because BRT service makes more sense for Plateau (no need to transfer from your suburban bus route) and LRT makes more sense for Alymer (more walkability and density concentrated close to the alignment).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Agreed. I think I'm coming around to H1 or H2... They both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I feel H2 maybe wins out because BRT service makes more sense for Plateau (no need to transfer from your suburban bus route) and LRT makes more sense for Alymer (more walkability and density concentrated close to the alignment).

You might be right on that one. And the Aylmer route is better suited for LRT due to the straighter alignment and lack of space (LRT takes up less room than BRT, as demonstrated by the Transitway conversion).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think it's a positive move that Gatineau is finally moving away from the PoW. Having two N/S Lines meeting head-to-head with thousands transferring to and from the same, already packed E/W Line was a disastrous vision. If PoW is used, it has to be the Trillium crossing. Simplified linear vision. Lets do what we can to at least start a downtown loop.

Agreed. With a station at Lyon, many will be within walking distance of their destination. Those who aren't will have a partially emptied Confederation Line train to transfer to.

I have said this before, but the POW bridge was only ever considered because it is there and not being used, not because its location is good. If it didn't exist, I don't think anyone would even think to build a rail bridge there today.

[Multi-modal]

So I was thinking - and I know this is transit fantasy territory - but what happens to the Rapibus after this gets built? I think its a valid question to ask to make sure the first phase gets built right.

I'm going to assume that T1 is chosen as the preferred alternative (I feel like that is the way the political winds are blowing, nevermind if it is the best alternative). I'm also going to assume it goes over budget but achieves full build-out anyway. Finally, I assume the O-train is extended ... perhaps to Montcalm, but who knows.

The question is - what happens when politicians and the public from east Gatineau start demanding LRT. What would happen to a converted Rapibus? What would be the ideal scenario?

I see 3 options (excuse the crude diagrams):

Option 1 - Interline with the Alymer LRT
This is the cheapest option, but it may run in to capacity issues, and it completely abandons Hull.


Option 2 - An incomplete "U" Loop

This would use the Alexandra Bridge to connect to the Alymer Line and form one very long Gatineau LRT line. Disadvantages are - the long line could have issues with the trains bunching (although I'm sure there are ways to have fixed dwell times to avoid bunching), and trips like UQO to Les Galeries de Hull would be a very long train ride (partially alleviated by transferring to the Trillium Line for those that don't mind the double transfer)


Option 3 - Crossed Loop
In this option the east Gatineau LRT would use Allumettieres and Maisonneuve to cross the Alymer LRT at Maisonneuve and Laurier. The Alymer line would be re-directed to cross at Alexandra - and they would again connect in downtown Ottawa to form one giant Gatineau LRT line. With this alternative the rider has an option to transfer at Maissonneuve and Laurier if you don't want to take the trip through Ottawa... or say you were coming from Alymer to Lyon Station area in Ottawa, you could transfer to use the Portage Bridge rather than the Alexandra Bridge.


What do you all think? I feel that Option 2 would be fine, but Option 3 would have some big advantages. Either way - if Gatineau goes with H1 or H2, then converts Rapibus to LRT - it may force the BRT portion from Alymer or Plateau to transfer, which not ideal. I think T1 might be the most "future proof".

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

So I was thinking - and I know this is transit fantasy territory - but what happens to the Rapibus after this gets built? I think its a valid question to ask to make sure the first phase gets built right.

I'm going to assume that T1 is chosen as the preferred alternative (I feel like that is the way the political winds are blowing, nevermind if it is the best alternative). I'm also going to assume it goes over budget but achieves full build-out anyway. Finally, I assume the O-train is extended ... perhaps to Montcalm, but who knows.

The question is - what happens when politicians and the public from east Gatineau start demanding LRT. What would happen to a converted Rapibus? What would be the ideal scenario?

I see 3 options (excuse the crude diagrams):

Option 1 - Interline with the Alymer LRT
This is the cheapest option, but it may run in to capacity issues, and it completely abandons Hull.


Option 2 - An incomplete "U" Loop

This would use the Alexandra Bridge to connect to the Alymer Line and form one very long Gatineau LRT line. Disadvantages are - the long line could have issues with the trains bunching (although I'm sure there are ways to have fixed dwell times to avoid bunching), and trips like UQO to Les Galeries de Hull would be a very long train ride (partially alleviated by transferring to the Trillium Line for those that don't mind the double transfer)


Option 3 - Crossed Loop
In this option the east Gatineau LRT would use Allumettieres and Maisonneuve to cross the Alymer LRT at Maisonneuve and Laurier. The Alymer line would be re-directed to cross at Alexandra - and they would again connect in downtown Ottawa to form one giant Gatineau LRT line. With this alternative the rider has an option to transfer at Maissonneuve and Laurier if you don't want to take the trip through Ottawa... or say you were coming from Alymer to Lyon Station area in Ottawa, you could transfer to use the Portage Bridge rather than the Alexandra Bridge.


What do you all think? I feel that Option 2 would be fine, but Option 3 would have some big advantages. Either way - if Gatineau goes with H1 or H2, then converts Rapibus to LRT - it may force the BRT portion from Alymer or Plateau to transfer, which not ideal. I think T1 might be the most "future proof".

I prefer either H1 or H2. T1 would be a waste of money for little benefit. H2 offers more bang for the buck and it covers a wider area.

After taking another look, option 2 and 3 look good as well but I still will go with either H1 or H2.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I prefer either H1 or H2. T1 would be a waste of money for little benefit.

Something I think people are missing when they say H1 or H2 are cheaper is the cost of new vehicles and electrification. The announcement says that no matter what option is chosen it will be fully electric. This means that

1. even the bus options will require caternary poles and wires, and/or
2. the bus options will require new garages with charging infrastructure and other charging at points along the line

So it follows that H1 or H2 will require a new MSF for trams, as well as a new garage for the electric buses.

[J.OT13]

If they plan to go with electric buses for any west BRT, who's to say they don't plan to upgrade the entire fleet to electric? Electric buses doesn't necessarily mean trolley buses with centenaries. We're starting to see an emergence of decent plug-in buses.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If they plan to go with electric buses for any west BRT, who's to say they don't plan to upgrade the entire fleet to electric? Electric buses doesn't necessarily mean trolley buses with centenaries. We're starting to see an emergence of decent plug-in buses.

True, but the start-up cost is non-negligible and would be included in this project's cost.

[lrt's friend]

If the aim is a downtown loop, I still say crossing at Chaudiere, which gives direct access to Albert and Slater is best. This gives the broadest coverage to places downtown including the U of O, and any major destination that might be built on Lebreton Flats.

The current proposal assumes the most minimal route into downtown and therefore assumes that a loop will never be built. It also assumes that nothing notable will be built on Lebreton Flats.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

If the aim is a downtown loop, I still say crossing at Chaudiere, which gives direct access to Albert and Slater is best. This gives the broadest coverage to places downtown including the U of O, and any major destination that might be built on Lebreton Flats.

The current proposal assumes the most minimal route into downtown and therefore assumes that a loop will never be built. It also assumes that nothing notable will be built on Lebreton Flats.

How would you propose connecting Mackenzie King Bridge back to the Alexandra bridge... that's a bit of a challenge. It seems to me an Albert-Slater alignment kills a loop more than using the Portage Bridge.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

How would you propose connecting Mackenzie King Bridge back to the Alexandra bridge... that's a bit of a challenge. It seems to me an Albert-Slater alignment kills a loop more than using the Portage Bridge.

Waller, Rideau, Dalhousie

It seems to me, some alignment using Queen Street to access Lyon Station will be even more difficult if you somehow loop it back to the Interprovincial Bridge. I don't think a plan to have trams crossing Confederation Square will be seen very favourably or will require some very expensive tunneling which will likely interfere with the Confederation Line tunnel.

I also cannot see any way to get trains from Queen or Sparks down to the old Hull Electric right of way next to the Chateau without causing serious damage to Confederation Square and Rideau Canal navigation.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Waller, Rideau, Dalhousie

Depending on the LRT vehicles they end up choosing, the turns to go from Waller to Rideau to Dalhousie might not be possible. Its also a very long route in Ottawa for the STO to want to invest in. Unless STO and OC Transpo merge it seems just as unlikely as crossing Confedration Square somehow.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Depending on the LRT vehicles they end up choosing, the turns to go from Waller to Rideau to Dalhousie might not be possible. Its also a very long route in Ottawa for the STO to want to invest in. Unless STO and OC Transpo merge it seems just as unlikely as crossing Confedration Square somehow.

I see the need for federal investment if we ever want to see an interprovincial loop. I see the need of federal investment if we want any sort of proper interprovincial transit connectivity especially if trains are involved.

How do you see a loop being routed?

I guess I am not following what STO is proposing to get trains even to Lyon Station. How do they get there? They are not going through the Garden of the Provinces. They can't be going through the cliff because that is where the Confederation Line tunnel is. They must be using Wellington and turning onto Lyon and then reversing. Still a pretty sharp turn for all those trains. This is awful long way from key destinations including the Rideau Centre, Byward Market and the U of O. Lots of transfers taking place and unhappy customers.