Electric Vehicle Charging Stations in Ottawa-Gatineau

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Taxpayers are already paying a big chunk of the cost of your EV, you aren't paying gas taxes so are getting subsidized use of the roads and now you think your condo board should pay the $10k to install a charger?

This was my point earlier. The government should not be subsidizing the purchases of cars. They can and should help with infrastructure. Rather than giving out $5000 cheques to car buyers I'd rather they give out $10 000 cheques to condo boards to enable the installation of chargers that everyone in a building can use. That would actually make it feasible for more than a handful of people to buy EVs on their own.

Or even fund more public charger stations so that those who live in multi-unit dwellings can charge.

Government's role should be infrastructure here. Not direct subsidies.

[lrt's friend]

Isn't that the problem? The economics of EVs is that there has been and still are expectations of subsidies for one thing or another. We expect the government to pay for charging stations on private property whether to a landlord, or condo corporation, to your employer, to hotels, to gas station operators and to give out electricity for free at many locations. With gas cars, this was always paid for by private companies and you and me who pay for the fuel. There may be good reasons to switch to EVs but the purchase and operation of an EV should be paid for by the user and not by the taxpayer.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Isn't that the problem? The economics of EVs is that there has been and still are expectations of subsidies for one thing or another. We expect the government to pay for charging stations on private property whether to a landlord, or condo corporation, to your employer, to hotels, to gas station operators and to give out electricity for free at many locations. With gas cars, this was always paid for by private companies and you and me who pay for the fuel. There may be good reasons to switch to EVs but the purchase and operation of an EV should be paid for by the user and not by the taxpayer.

But the improved roads and freeways were paid for by the government. Whether it is roads for personal and commercial vehicles, rail for freight and passengers, electricity, canals, locks, etc, there has always been public investments of some kind. The whole history of the growth of the car and the suburbs is intertwined with massive amounts of subsidies and public spending.

It isn't as though every single EV charging hookup will have to be subsidized. it is already becoming a selling point for homebuyers and renters to have that hookup so many developers/hotel operators/property mangers are going to move the infrastructure forward on their own. The funding will likely be about filling in the gaps, so that as automakers transition away from petrol/diesel cars, you don't have communities or segments of the society who find themselves unable to reasonably own an EV due to lack of sufficient infrastructure.

Edit: And there are some aspects of EV infrastructure that will be hard to do without government funding. On street parking is a perfect example. There will eventually need to be some sort of system to allow on street EV charging. Though the cost could be recovered over time through fees/special EV parking permits, it still requires an initial capital investment. Cities could in theory charge higher fees in the early years, to recover the costs faster. But if they had to use that method then it would greatly slow down their ability to role a system out on a large scale, and deal with inevitable, sometimes costly, growing pains that will come with it.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's a lot you can do. In theory. In reality it goes like this for most cases:

"I want to buy an EV so we need a charger in the building."

"Cool. You can pay for the engineering cost and installation and we're good as long as it doesn't cost the board a dime."

"That'll cost $10k."

"Not our problem."

1. I charge my car outside, via a plug. No problemo there.
2. New home construction usually includes a 240V in the garage, standard.
3. New condo construction usually includes several charge stations, or 120V plugs at each parking stall. No problemo.
4. Yes, change is scary, but inevitable.
5. Yes, the gov't should provide a small incentive, maybe with some leftover carbon taxes. Once critical mass is hit, the incentive can definitely stop. (Soon... very soon... muah ha ha)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

1. I charge my car outside, via a plug. No problemo there.
2. New home construction usually includes a 240V in the garage, standard.
3. New condo construction usually includes several charge stations, or 120V plugs at each parking stall. No problemo.
4. Yes, change is scary, but inevitable.
5. Yes, the gov't should provide a small incentive, maybe with some leftover carbon taxes. Once critical mass is hit, the incentive can definitely stop. (Soon... very soon... muah ha ha)

As per StatsCan, a third of all dwellings in Canada are in some kind of multi-unit setup (condo, apartment, duplex/triplex, etc.). Skew homes to families and a rough guess would be something like a fifth to a quarter of all Canadians live in a multi-unit setup. Probably closer to half of residents in a large city. And most of those people don't have access to chargers today and unless something drastically changes, they won't have access for decades to come.

The government can and should mandate 240V 50A service in the garages of all new single family homes (I believe there's been some requirement recently added in the Ontario Building Code). But they've yet to do anything for all the new condos being built.

So all in all, we keep making it more difficult for the very people most likely to buy an EV to access chargers conveniently. And instead of addressing that the government chose to cut cheques to suburbanites who have access to two car garages to charge.

A lot of folks will bring up money spent on chargers at malls, grocery stores, etc. This is a red herring. Common sense tells you that it's not the same to charge at the bottom of the building than to have babysit your car at Starbucks or Loblaws (assuming there's an open charger spot when you get there) to charge.

As long as EVs are only practical for suburbanites, it will only be suburbanites buying them.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

As long as EVs are only practical for suburbanites, it will only be suburbanites buying them.

Exactly. We need the government to take a lead in projects like this curbside charging pilot project in Vancouver https://vancouver.ca/streets-transpo...t-program.aspx

EVs are still and upscale or straight up luxury item at this point. Those that can afford them are not likely to revoke a purchase if the subsidy is taken away. But someone is the city is definitely not going to consider one if they don't have easy access to charging. Given how far the technology has come in the last 5 years, and the auto industry turning EVs into a desirable luxury good, and not just some ugly car only eco-nuts would drive, access to charging is basically the last barrier to mass adoption.

[Truenorth00]

We have studies that show that public chargers aren't going to help with EV sales.

https://www.sfu.ca/university-commun...-chargers.html

And a lot of that is specifically because of the convenience issues I mentioned. People don't buy EVs unless they live in a house. There's a great article here by an economist who identified that living in and own a home made you more likely to buy an EV than renting an apartment:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innov...ons-180969773/

This is all well known.

People talk about the cost of electric vehicles being a barrier. The far bigger barrier is the fact that you need a house to charge the things.

I get why the government offered the rebate. It's an election year. They need to blunt some of the criticism and backlash on the carbon tax. Doesn't make it sound policy though.

[Gat-Train]

We should be trying to get people out of cars, period. Electric or gas, private automobiles and auto-centric development patterns are detrimental to the well-being of any city with a population greater than 100k.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We have studies that show that public chargers aren't going to help with EV sales.

https://www.sfu.ca/university-commun...-chargers.html

And a lot of that is specifically because of the convenience issues I mentioned. People don't buy EVs unless they live in a house. There's a great article here by an economist who identified that living in and own a home made you more likely to buy an EV than renting an apartment:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innov...ons-180969773/

This is all well known.

People talk about the cost of electric vehicles being a barrier. The far bigger barrier is the fact that you need a house to charge the things.

I get why the government offered the rebate. It's an election year. They need to blunt some of the criticism and backlash on the carbon tax. Doesn't make it sound policy though.

I would much rather see the government make larger investments in transit and intercity rail improvements.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

I would much rather see the government make larger investments in transit and intercity rail improvements.

I would too. But $300 million isn't going to buy you much in terms of transit and/or intercity rail. On the other hand $300 million could provide up to 30 000 charging spots to condos and apartments nationwide.

California is spending about US$2.5 billion. That's what they think it takes to make chargers convenient enough to enable a full changeover. That's about CA$3.3 billion. And they have a similar population size. I think that's far for a one time expenditure to basically enable a switch from gas to electric.

[roger1818]

While the availability of a charger at home is one factor as to why homeowners are more likely to buy an electric car, it isn’t the only factor. I would argue that a much bigger factor is families are much more likely to buy an EV as a secondary vehicle than a primary one and homeowners are more likely to own two (or more) cars than those who live in a condo or apartment since they don’t have to pay for parking spot at home.

I do agree that legislation and subsidies around residential chargers would be more effective than subsidizing vehicles though, if for no other reason than the charger infrastructure (wiring, etc) will last much longer than the car itself, so it’s an investment in the future.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We have studies that show that public chargers aren't going to help with EV sales.

https://www.sfu.ca/university-commun...-chargers.html

And a lot of that is specifically because of the convenience issues I mentioned. People don't buy EVs unless they live in a house. There's a great article here by an economist who identified that living in and own a home made you more likely to buy an EV than renting an apartment:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innov...ons-180969773/

This is all well known.

People talk about the cost of electric vehicles being a barrier. The far bigger barrier is the fact that you need a house to charge the things.

I get why the government offered the rebate. It's an election year. They need to blunt some of the criticism and backlash on the carbon tax. Doesn't make it sound policy though.

I am not disagreeing that having apartments with EV charging would help adoption a lot. Of course it would.

And while right now, for obvious reasons, all the attention is focused on new EV sales, a big part of adoption is going to be what happens in the resale market. The fact that most EVs depreciate at levels equal to luxury petrol cars is something that serves as a barrier to adoption. There are a lot of people out there who buy a Honda or Toyota because they want a vehicle with high resale value when it comes time to purchase something new. Chargers in apartments and for on street parking might not have the largest impact for new sales, but what will their impacts be on the resale market? Is this demographic more likely to buy a used vehicle, versus a new one? And if the consumer base for used EVs can be increased, this will help push up demand, which leads to higher prices, which also attracts additional consumers who then become more likely to purchase a new EV, versus new petrol car, because according to their calculus it makes financial sense to do so once depreciation is more in line with an equivalent petrol car.

I would also add that in the age of populism, there is something to be said about making sure that adoption is being helped across all segments of society. And even if investments don't yield the strongest results at the outset (such as on street charging in urban, residential areas), it is still important because it creates the perception that all segments of society are going to be able to take part in owning an EV. This is perhaps even more true in rural areas, especially rural areas of Western Canada, where opposition to EVs could get particularly fierce as the change over will impact the oil industry, and other adjacent industries such as transportation, in a real way.

I get that you need to be laser focused in the early stages of adoption, and targeting higher income households, in homes, makes sense. But there is only so long that you can do that before EVs gain a perception as being for the well off, or more urban, Eastern Canada/West Coast, liberal types. Any Federal EV adoption plan should be equal parts urban, suburban, and rural, and across all class divisions. Even if some demographics aren't part of an initial roll out, it should be clear what the future will bring to them. Not only is it fair, but there is just as much potential for EV adoption in rural areas as there is in urban and suburban ones.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

. The fact that most EVs depreciate at levels equal to luxury petrol cars is something that serves as a barrier to adoption.

This is only true while the tech is advancing significantly. Why buy an EV today when you know that five years from now battery prices are going to be 50-70% lower? And with that trend curve playing out in real life, it's impacting resale values. That curve is starting to bottom out though, just as we dip below $200/kwh for pack prices. So an EV you buy in 2024 won't have the same depreciation as today.

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

Chargers in apartments and for on street parking might not have the largest impact for new sales, but what will their impacts be on the resale market?

When you limit 20-30% of the market from owning any EV due to limited charging options, what do you think that would do to resale prices?

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

I would also add that in the age of populism, there is something to be said about making sure that adoption is being helped across all segments of society. And even if investments don't yield the strongest results at the outset (such as on street charging in urban, residential areas), it is still important because it creates the perception that all segments of society are going to be able to take part in owning an EV. This is perhaps even more true in rural areas, especially rural areas of Western Canada, where opposition to EVs could get particularly fierce as the change over will impact the oil industry, and other adjacent industries such as transportation, in a real way.

I get that you need to be laser focused in the early stages of adoption, and targeting higher income households, in homes, makes sense. But there is only so long that you can do that before EVs gain a perception as being for the well off, or more urban, Eastern Canada/West Coast, liberal types. Any Federal EV adoption plan should be equal parts urban, suburban, and rural, and across all class divisions. Even if some demographics aren't part of an initial roll out, it should be clear what the future will bring to them. Not only is it fair, but there is just as much potential for EV adoption in rural areas as there is in urban and suburban ones.

Government could avoid all the political landmines here by focusing entirely on building the infrastructure to convert to electric. Would be substantially more effective too.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is only true while the tech is advancing significantly. Why buy an EV today when you know that five years from now battery prices are going to be 50-70% lower? And with that trend curve playing out in real life, it's impacting resale values. That curve is starting to bottom out though, just as we dip below $200/kwh for pack prices. So an EV you buy in 2024 won't have the same depreciation as today.

There's a plus side to this though. It is currently very economical to buy a used EV at the 3-5 year mark. You can get a 2015 Nissan Leaf on AutoTrader today for $17k or so.. by comparison, a 2015 Honda Civic will go for $15k. Barely a difference, easily made up for in cost of operation. With that difference, if I had access to home charging, the 2015 Leaf would be an absolute no brainer over the 2015 Civic.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CityTech

There's a plus side to this though. It is currently very economical to buy a used EV at the 3-5 year mark. You can get a 2015 Nissan Leaf on AutoTrader today for $17k or so.. by comparison, a 2015 Honda Civic will go for $15k. Barely a difference, easily made up for in cost of operation. With that difference, if I had access to home charging, the 2015 Leaf would be an absolute no brainer over the 2015 Civic.

This is where two car owning suburbanite families can really benefit. Swap the commuter car for a used EV and get very low commuting costs.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

As per StatsCan, a third of all dwellings in Canada are in some kind of multi-unit setup (condo, apartment, duplex/triplex, etc.). Skew homes to families and a rough guess would be something like a fifth to a quarter of all Canadians live in a multi-unit setup. Probably closer to half of residents in a large city. And most of those people don't have access to chargers today and unless something drastically changes, they won't have access for decades to come.

The government can and should mandate 240V 50A service in the garages of all new single family homes (I believe there's been some requirement recently added in the Ontario Building Code). But they've yet to do anything for all the new condos being built.

So all in all, we keep making it more difficult for the very people most likely to buy an EV to access chargers conveniently. And instead of addressing that the government chose to cut cheques to suburbanites who have access to two car garages to charge.

A lot of folks will bring up money spent on chargers at malls, grocery stores, etc. This is a red herring. Common sense tells you that it's not the same to charge at the bottom of the building than to have babysit your car at Starbucks or Loblaws (assuming there's an open charger spot when you get there) to charge.

As long as EVs are only practical for suburbanites, it will only be suburbanites buying them.

Most new condos that I've seen have banks of chargers, usually for some small percentage of the population who will inevitably own EV's. And really, a 240V 50A service is not required for your average EV owner. A 120V 12A service works just fine for me for my day-to-day needs (~100km range from a 12 hour charge cycle, and if (eventually) the car ends up out of juice by Friday, it has the entire weekend to charge fully on a 120V. My point is, condos also have 120V plugs interspersed throughout their garages, and EV owners can simply petition the board to move their parking space to the plug. There's the inevitable argument and logistics of 'paying' for the energy, which is an entirely different topic. A few recent court cases should end the debate soon.

Now, I bought my 240 charger for the fun, and because it's cool. It was $1200 to purchase and install in my 'suburban' townhouse garage, 4km from downtown.

People on here who claim 'the government' is funding all of our nice EV's are not entirely correct. Sure some charge stations were 'free' at one point, but 95% are now owned and operated by ChargePoint, Electric Circuit, or FLO. These are pay-as-you-go, and range from lump sums of $1-$4 for a 'session' or $0.15-0.30/kwh. Its all a complete rip-off, as I pay $20/month at home to charge, and I drive 80-100km per day (15-18kwh). The building owner will partner with one of these companies to supply and install the charge station, and make a killing in the process.

I bought my EV without a government subsidy, used, with a fair amount of depreciation but actually the same % as an ICE vehicle would have had. Also my vehicle is known for depreciating less than an ICE vehicle over the long term, as the wear and tear is significantly less.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Most new condos that I've seen have banks of chargers, usually for some small percentage of the population who will inevitably own EV's.

Sure. But the majority of condo and apartment dwellers stay in old buildings that don't have these. And "most" definitely does not mean "all". There are lots of new condos and apartments still being built without any provisions for EVs.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

And really, a 240V 50A service is not required for your average EV owner. A 120V 12A service works just fine for me for my day-to-day needs

Sure. But we aren't even building this at most parking spot. One would think virtually any new parking spot would have such an outlet, just like they have for block heaters out west. It's always been amazing to me how we don't see such outlets in Ottawa when the city is nearly as cold for weeks at a time.

I do agree that in Ottawa, a normal 120V 12A outlet would work fine, as long as the line is properly gagued, so that the breaker doesn't trip when several neighbouring cars are charging. Adding proper charging units as standard at every spot would actually allow for some feedback and demand management on the electrical system. A worthwhile consideration, if the building is being built from scratch.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

My point is, condos also have 120V plugs interspersed throughout their garages, and EV owners can simply petition the board to move their parking space to the plug.

It really isn't as easy as you think. In most cases, when the condo was built, these plugs was installed not for the use of car owners, but for service needs of the building, such as cleaning. And they are located in that way. In my building for example, I can't find a single spot that is within 10 ft of a plug in my area of the parking garage. And there's only two outlets I can even have access to. Relying on plugs normally located so a cleaner can vaccuum or buff the floors, is not a realistic solution.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

my 'suburban' townhouse garage, 4km from downtown.

It's Ottawa. It gets suburban really fast a few kms from downtown. People in this town think Vanier is "urban". LOL. And yet Vanier is not all that different than most of Scarborough or Etobicoke in Toronto.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

People on here who claim 'the government' is funding all of our nice EV's are not entirely correct. Sure some charge stations were 'free' at one point, but 95% are now owned and operated by ChargePoint, Electric Circuit, or FLO.

I don't think when people complain about your EV being subsidized they are generally talking about free electricity. Free chargepoints really weren't common for all that long. They were usually bundled in the purchase (Tesla) or located at dealerships or offices, etc. places where you had to have access. In effect, paying for the fuel with your car or paid for by your employer, etc. People usually take issue with the rebates. After all they are several thousand dollars. This is why I've argued we'd all be better off if the government simply spent that cash on building the infrastructure to make charging far more accessible.

There's even little annoyances like the whole fiasco with the OnRoute contracts to Canadian Tire. Would have been amazing to have Tesla, Ionity, Chargepoint, FLO, etc. each have a row of chargers at every service centre. And heck that would not have even required government subsidies.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

my vehicle is known for depreciating less than an ICE vehicle over the long term, as the wear and tear is significantly less.

Tesla?

[roger1818]

A bit off topic but still related to EV chargers. I am looking at buying an EV and was wondering if anyone on this forum can give advice on class 2 home chargers?

1. Where in Ottawa can you buy them?
2. Any makes/models I should be looking for (or avoiding)?
3. Any recommendations on where in the garage it should be located?
4. Anything else I should be looking for?

The one thing I heard is to look for one with a long cord (25'?) and a cable management system, so that if you are parked in your driveway (or have a visitor with an EV) it will reach. I was also thinking of putting it near the front of the garage, to make it easier to have the cable reach into the driveway.

[Tesladom]

Tesla Model SR+ is the only one you should consider, all others are simply crap (sorry Leaf, Bolt ...)

Comes with Charger and 20 ft cord, PM me I can help you with your questions

[qprcanada]

Originally Posted by roger1818

A bit off topic but still related to EV chargers. I am looking at buying an EV and was wondering if anyone on this forum can give advice on class 2 home chargers?

1. Where in Ottawa can you buy them?
2. Any makes/models I should be looking for (or avoiding)?
3. Any recommendations on where in the garage it should be located?
4. Anything else I should be looking for?

The one thing I heard is to look for one with a long cord (25'?) and a cable management system, so that if you are parked in your driveway (or have a visitor with an EV) it will reach. I was also thinking of putting it near the front of the garage, to make it easier to have the cable reach into the driveway.

One issue I ran into when getting a charging station installed in my garage is that it could not be to close to the water tap so it could not be installed in area I wanted close to the door but in the end it was not an issue. The charging cord that plugs into the car is usually quite long and I have no problem charging my E-Golf in the garage or in the driveway. I purchased a Flo charger through the Hydro Ottawa program and am very happy with it.

Having a level 2 charger at home is a game changer and greatly reduces your range anxiety. I've had an electric car for over a year now and would never go back to an ICE.