Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I am deeply skeptical of routings on Allumettières and Maisonneuve because these are car corridors whose purpose is incompatible with the kind of dense development and slow speeds which transit-oriented development requires. The best you could end up with is a sort of unhappy middle which is too auto-oriented to be pleasant, but too dense to be convenient for cars. Worse still, the competition with the existing nodes would do no favours to them. The result is middling new nodes and degrading old nodes, a shit-to-drive-on Chemin d'Aylmer and a shit-to-drive-on Allumettières, and 'just-okay' transit service down both. Like lukewarm beer or a half-dried grape, sometimes going down the middle makes no one happy. I think it's preferable for us to have excellent transit/ped-oriented corridors building on existing nodes, and to leave Maisonneuve and Allumettières for quick car access.

I agree with that too, that's why I have not completely made up my mind on the routing yet. Allumettières is basically a highway past the last roundabout, and light-rail running along a highway is not what we want either.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

One thing which I think is under-appreciated (and 'under-measured') is that a rapid transit project is more than only a question of commercial speed and coverage. The placement of infrastructure will determine where and how development will happen, and where it won't. So it's of particular importance as to where and how we want development to happen.

I think that this is an aspect of the Confederation Line which was somewhat neglected, and Ottawa will find itself trying to develop around stations in almost undevelopable areas between onramps beside the convenient-to-build Queensway sections, while by-passing or barely grazing those corridors which could've used the growth.

Essentially, let's build transit for the city we want, not build the city around the convenience of construction.

For Gatineau, I believe this means that existing nodes need to be served (Vieux-Aylmer, UQO/Val-Tétreau, Plateau Smart Centre), and that their corridors (Chemin d'Aylmer/Principale, Boul. Plateau, Taché) should be prioritized for transit and development in order to further strengthen them. These should be corridors which can, over time, become dense, pedestrian-oriented main streets.

I am deeply skeptical of routings on Allumettières and Maisonneuve because these are car corridors whose purpose is incompatible with the kind of dense development and slow speeds which transit-oriented development requires. The best you could end up with is a sort of unhappy middle which is too auto-oriented to be pleasant, but too dense to be convenient for cars. Worse still, the competition with the existing nodes would do no favours to them. The result is middling new nodes and degrading old nodes, a shit-to-drive-on Chemin d'Aylmer and a shit-to-drive-on Allumettières, and 'just-okay' transit service down both. Like lukewarm beer or a half-dried grape, sometimes going down the middle makes no one happy. I think it's preferable for us to have excellent transit/ped-oriented corridors building on existing nodes, and to leave Maisonneuve and Allumettières for quick car access.

Coverage, speed, and other infrastructure metrics are important. However, we shouldn't lose track of the fact that LRT is a city-building project, not just an infrastructure project. And I strongly believe that the B1/T1 routing accomplishes that, regardless of the technology.





I don't know what tone this is supposed to convey.

So i take it you dont live in that area and dont have to deal with the car traffic that i prefer it was gone.

Maisonneauve needs to be rebulit and the LRT project would make it cheaper to do that since the construction can be bundled in. I strongly disagree about the cars using those roads, they should go somewhere else and if thats a problem then to bad. As for speed you are wrong there since using alexandre tache is actually longer than using Allumnetieres and Maissoneauve. The H1 plan makes alot more sense than T1, its faster and covers more of the city

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by le calmar

LRT running along Allumettières could help rejuvenate the area similarly to what happned to Maisonneuve.

Maisonneuve is a good example of the urban planning equivalent of a "lukewarm beer and half-dried grape". It combines both the density of a city with the stark bleakness of a suburban highway. Although it's one of the densest streets in the city both in terms of residents and employment and a highly accessible and convenient location, no one would ever willingly spend any time in its vicinity, not for all the art installations in the world.



In a city, a road can be convenient to drive on, or it can be an attractive place to spend time. But the things which make it good at one will be the exact things which will preclude it from being the other.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

So i take it you dont live in that area and dont have to deal with the car traffic that i prefer it was gone.

I actually live two short blocks from Allumettières. The H alignment would give me a station within a stone's throw from my house. But generational city-building projects like this have to be more than the sum total of blind self-interest.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Maisonneuve is a good example of the urban planning equivalent of a "lukewarm beer and half-dried grape". It combines both the density of a city with the stark bleakness of a suburban highway. Although it's one of the densest streets in the city both in terms of residents and employment and a highly accessible and convenient location, no one would ever willingly spend any time in its vicinity, not for all the art installations in the world.



In a city, a road can be convenient to drive on, or it can be an attractive place to spend time. But the things which make it good at one will be the exact things which will preclude it from being the other.

Then you obviously ignore the restaurants that are nearby that people go to as well as the nightclubs that people go to as well. I can go on about the other attractions like the museum and place de portage buildings itself.

[Multi-modal]

One thing to think about is it looks like the H1 option pushes the Rapibus routes to connect to the proposed BRT along Alexandre-Tache or Boulevard Lucerne. This would create an interesting transit hub where the Rapibus, southwest Gatineau BRT alignment, and O-Train (eventually maybe) intersect.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Then you obviously ignore the restaurants that are nearby that people go to as well as the nightclubs that people go to as well. I can go on about the other attractions like the museum and place de portage buildings itself.

Except for St-Hubert, McDonald's and a pizza place, most of this is not on Maisonneuve itself. Though all of it is in the vicinity, you're right.

Also, he posted the worst segment of Maisonneuve in terms of "brutality".

Just to the east of that picture is much more human-scaled and pleasant - which is in fact most of Maisonneuve. It's still not a great, exciting city street but it's certainly not an unpleasant place to walk.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

One thing which I think is under-appreciated (and 'under-measured') is that a rapid transit project is more than only a question of commercial speed and coverage. The placement of infrastructure will determine where and how development will happen, and where it won't. So it's of particular importance as to where and how we want development to happen.

I think that this is an aspect of the Confederation Line which was somewhat neglected, and Ottawa will find itself trying to develop around stations in almost undevelopable areas between onramps beside the convenient-to-build Queensway sections, while by-passing or barely grazing those corridors which could've used the growth.

Essentially, let's build transit for the city we want, not build the city around the convenience of construction.

For Gatineau, I believe this means that existing nodes need to be served (Vieux-Aylmer, UQO/Val-Tétreau, Plateau Smart Centre), and that their corridors (Chemin d'Aylmer/Principale, Boul. Plateau, Taché) should be prioritized for transit and development in order to further strengthen them. These should be corridors which can, over time, become dense, pedestrian-oriented main streets.

I am deeply skeptical of routings on Allumettières and Maisonneuve because these are car corridors whose purpose is incompatible with the kind of dense development and slow speeds which transit-oriented development requires. The best you could end up with is a sort of unhappy middle which is too auto-oriented to be pleasant, but too dense to be convenient for cars. Worse still, the competition with the existing nodes would do no favours to them. The result is middling new nodes and degrading old nodes, a shit-to-drive-on Chemin d'Aylmer and a shit-to-drive-on Allumettières, and 'just-okay' transit service down both. Like lukewarm beer or a half-dried grape, sometimes going down the middle makes no one happy. I think it's preferable for us to have excellent transit/ped-oriented corridors building on existing nodes, and to leave Maisonneuve and Allumettières for quick car access.

Coverage, speed, and other infrastructure metrics are important. However, we shouldn't lose track of the fact that LRT is a city-building project, not just an infrastructure project. And I strongly believe that the B1/T1 routing accomplishes that, regardless of the technology.

.

You've given all of the things this project should do, and stated that B1/T1 accomplish that, but without any reasons why.

As far as I am concerned I don't live in Hull and never have. But in a number of ways the Hull sector (excluding the Plateau which is part of Hull) has arguably gotten the short end of the stick since the merger. I can recognize this. In the interest of fairness and not letting the central part of the Ville de Gatineau, if they pick B1/T1 (I don't care as much about BRT vs. LRT) and short-shrift most of Hull again, this will be a ballot question for me during the next elections. Enough is enough.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Then you obviously ignore the restaurants that are nearby that people go to as well as the nightclubs that people go to as well. I can go on about the other attractions like the museum and place de portage buildings itself.

The restaurant offerings of Maisonneuve are as follows:
- Pizza 9
- St-Hubert
- McDonalds (with drive-through)
- Bar le Whip
- Maisonneuve Pizza

One restaurant, two pizza joints, a fast-food drive-through and a tavern over two kilometres qualifies as 'very sparse'.

As for the nightclubs (I assume you're referring to Laval/Aubry) and the History Museum, these are all things which exist despite Maisonneuve. In fact, it's a good example of what I'm saying; People enjoy hanging out on the terraces of Laval or the Museum lookout because these are thoroughly people-oriented places, undiluted by the traffic of a major arterial rammed through the middle.

Unless we are willing to reduce Maisonneuve and Allumettières to a single 30-40 km/h lane in each direction, it simply cannot and will not be anything more than a handful of pizza joints severed by seven lanes of traffic, with or sans LRT.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Unless we are willing to reduce Maisonneuve and Allumettières to a single 30-40 km/h lane in each direction, it simply cannot and will not be anything more than a handful of pizza joints severed by seven lanes of traffic, with or sans LRT.

I wish they would do that, that would be my preference.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Except for St-Hubert, McDonald's and a pizza place, most of this is not on Maisonneuve itself. Though all of it is in the vicinity, you're right.

Also, he posted the worst segment of Maisonneuve in terms of "brutality".

I don't think it's unfair to show this part of the street. It's portion with the most density of destinations, highlighting how density can be easily and jarringly uncoupled from vitality.

Just to the east of that picture is much more human-scaled and pleasant - which is in fact most of Maisonneuve. It's still not a great, exciting city street but it's certainly not an unpleasant place to walk.

I live in Vieux-Hull and have to walk by Maisonneuve regularly. Despite the nice furniture, I can't possibly imagine which part of it is not unpleasant to walk on, let alone which is built to a human scale. Judging from the conspicuous lack of people or businesses on the street, it doesn't seem like I'm the only one.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You've given all of the things this project should do, and stated that B1/T1 accomplish that, but without any reasons why.

It's right there in the post you quoted.

Originally Posted by Aylmer

For Gatineau, I believe this means that existing nodes need to be served (Vieux-Aylmer, UQO/Val-Tétreau, Plateau Smart Centre), and that their corridors (Chemin d'Aylmer/Principale, Boul. Plateau, Taché) should be prioritized for transit and development in order to further strengthen them. These should be corridors which can, over time, become dense, pedestrian-oriented main streets.

As far as I am concerned I don't live in Hull and never have. But in a number of ways the Hull sector (excluding the Plateau which is part of Hull) has arguably gotten the short end of the stick since the merger. I can recognize this. In the interest of fairness and not letting the central part of the Ville de Gatineau, if they pick B1/T1 (I don't care as much about BRT vs. LRT) and short-shrift most of Hull again, this will be a ballot question for me during the next elections. Enough is enough.

Although this is a laudable sentiment, I think it's worth pointing out that even in the H alignment, Hull only gains one additional station at Allumettières/Labelle, located in a quiet two-storey residential area and whose closest draw is the Parc St-Jean wading pool. All the other stations, although impressive-looking on a map, are already covered by the current Rapibus alignment.

Hull does need better transit service (I live here - I know it only too well), but one additional station in a quiet residential neighbourhood in the periphery of the southern corner of Hull makes for a poor ballot question.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

It's right there in the post you quoted.
Although this is a laudable sentiment, I think it's worth pointing out that even in the H alignment, Hull only gains one additional station at Allumettières/Labelle, located in a quiet two-storey residential area and whose closest draw is the Parc St-Jean wading pool. All the other stations, although impressive-looking on a map, are already covered by the current Rapibus alignment.
\

But westbound Rapibus routes can't stop on Allumettieres in Hull - sure the alignment is in the same location, but the Rapibus does not provide full-station service to most of Hull at the moment.

[CityTech]

Much of downtown Hull is a brutalist nightmare. I dunno how its ever going to be fixed.

[Aylmer]

This is a fair point and a pretty easy fix (either platforms in the middle of the street or dedicated bus left turns from the right). The City/STO don't need to wait ten years for this project in order to improve service to Île de Hull. The fact that it hasn't been done yet indicates to me that it unfortunately isn't guaranteed to happen in an H scenario either. Remember, the original Rapibus was also supposed to include stops along Maisonneuve/Allumetières.

[Acajack]

My preference for the routing between the Plateau and Hull is to use to Gamelin extension (fire trucks only at the moment I think) routing across Gatineau Park and then have the line run through the middle of Wrightville, then probably down through the Vieux-Hull via the Sentier-de-l'Île corridor, which used to be a railway corridor in fact.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My preference for the routing between the Plateau and Hull is to use to Gamelin extension (fire trucks only at the moment I think) routing across Gatineau Park and then have the line run through the middle of Wrightville, then probably down through the Vieux-Hull via the Sentier-de-l'Île corridor, which used to be a railway corridor in fact.

Is that corridor still used by fire trucks? I thought they ripped it up and put in a bike path up to the Gatineau Park entrance.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Is that corridor still used by fire trucks? I thought they ripped it up and put in a bike path up to the Gatineau Park entrance.

Could be...

[le calmar]

^ it’s a bike path, but if I recall correctly a sign at the entrance says its also used as a fire route.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by le calmar

^ it’s a bike path, but if I recall correctly a sign at the entrance says its also used as a fire route.

It's an emergency ambulance route from the Plateau to the hospital. There are signs on the pathway warning cyclists of that scenario.