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  #3461  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 4:04 AM
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casper casper is offline
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
You may think that, but the reality is a different story. It sounds like you want Skytrain (or something comparable) to travel to the Massey tunnel / bridge / whatever-the-heck-gets-built, presumably primarily following Hwy 99 - most of which travels through the ALR in Richmond. Then there's the fact that outside of it's downtown, most of Richmond is low density, along with South Delta. A WCE commuter type rush hour only train would be useful but anything beyond that...
The key issue is BC Ferries is a major intermodal transit hub that can be built up into into an even bigger transit focused hub. It is not about servicing intermediate stops it is about connecting that hub with the rest of region.

Driving a car on the ferries is expensive and can involve long waits. If there was a strong public transit option there would be fewer car on the ships.
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  #3462  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 4:42 AM
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Canada-Line wont go over to Delta. if anything it will go to Steveston. in 2009 it cost ~$110m/km. they wont be building it out that far to service nothing. they may build something else, but it wont be the Canada-Line.

also, do you know how deep this tunnel will need to go to avoid federal environmental reviews that could take 10yrs, and how nearly impossible it will be/or expensive it will be? remember, trains cant do much grade and the Canada-Line cannot do what Expo/Millennium can do. Canada-line has issues just getting from Richmond/Vancouver in the bad weather.


i have a feeling this tunnel idea will die on the vine once we get our heads out of our political asses.
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  #3463  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 6:14 AM
flipper316 flipper316 is offline
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Yes, you are right. I stand corrected on that. I still think capacity for rrt is necessary though. I'm sure that Canada libe will ultimately push shouth towards Delta.
How many times this has to be discussed. Canada line to south Delta? Never ever. Don't think there will ever be a population base to ever support that. Especially there where Tsawwassen and Ladner are so isolated. And it'll cost billions to a skytrain to nowhere. Not to mention the cost of reconstructing the single track in Richmond where the dumbasses in Richmond didn't even want guideways so they settled for a short-sighted single track.
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  #3464  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by casper View Post
The key issue is BC Ferries is a major intermodal transit hub that can be built up into into an even bigger transit focused hub. It is not about servicing intermediate stops it is about connecting that hub with the rest of region.

Driving a car on the ferries is expensive and can involve long waits. If there was a strong public transit option there would be fewer car on the ships.
Would there though? Turn Tsawwassen into a major transit hub so you take a ferry and get to... Duke Point, that other major transit hub? Swartz Bay is the best served terminal with transit and even that's kind of terrible.

A transit focused hub with no complementary services on the other end isn't going to drive people to take transit.
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  #3465  
Old Posted May 27, 2019, 8:28 PM
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As it stands now, don't some of the Gulf Island routes fill up with foot passengers so they have to leave cars at the dock with the car deck half empty (because max load is number of passengers, not cars)?
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  #3466  
Old Posted May 28, 2019, 12:15 AM
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how would skytrain get across the river? Its a lot wider than the north arm.
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  #3467  
Old Posted May 28, 2019, 2:23 AM
WestCoastEcho WestCoastEcho is offline
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Originally Posted by moosejaw View Post
how would skytrain get across the river? Its a lot wider than the north arm.
Checking the length of the crossing in Google Earth from bank to bank, looking at a crossing with a distance of 1.4km, which includes crossing Deas Island as well. Make it closer to 2.3km when you add in the approaches. Not exactly insurmountable or a significant challenge in terms of engineering.
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  #3468  
Old Posted May 28, 2019, 4:04 AM
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
As it stands now, don't some of the Gulf Island routes fill up with foot passengers so they have to leave cars at the dock with the car deck half empty (because max load is number of passengers, not cars)?
Be that as it may, the Salish-class ferries covering the Gulf Islands have a capacity of just 600 passengers - two Rotems. Even if every passenger took the train, at current Canada Line frequency, Tsawwassen would need at least six of those ferries an hour to make that viable on TransLink's end.

Would be nice though - a near-direct connection from the islands to YVR...
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  #3469  
Old Posted May 28, 2019, 4:33 AM
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Why is everyone so focused on the ferry terminal traffic, when the biggest passenger demand would be to Tsawwassen Mills and connecting to Tsawwassen itself. A station in front of the mega mall would be hugely popular and the area population must be starting to be fairly significant. Building on ground level for half of the route would also be as cheap as you can build Skytrain. Still expensive, but nothing like in many other areas.

I agree that it will likely still never happen, but it is not like the ferry terminal would be the only or even the biggest destination on that end.
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  #3470  
Old Posted May 28, 2019, 4:44 AM
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Two words: diminishing returns. With a population of 21k and #601 ridership of about 37 pphpd (200 for a SkyTrain?), Tsawwassen or its mall aren't enough to justify expanding the line to twice its length. The business case would have to revolve around being a regional connector, and even that's not a very good argument.

Edit: 37 riders per bus, not per hour. So that's 148 pphpd at peak for the #601, and 600-700 for the Canada Line... still not enough.

Last edited by Migrant_Coconut; May 28, 2019 at 5:25 AM.
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  #3471  
Old Posted May 28, 2019, 6:18 AM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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I'm more interested HSR than RRT through that area, to be honest.

HSR along the 99 would have less opposition. Veer away from Richmond downtown at Knight and tunnel it for 6km until you get to the junction that takes it to Pacific Central.

git 'er done.
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  #3472  
Old Posted May 28, 2019, 6:50 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
I'm more interested HSR than RRT through that area, to be honest.

HSR along the 99 would have less opposition. Veer away from Richmond downtown at Knight and tunnel it for 6km until you get to the junction that takes it to Pacific Central.

git 'er done.
That's a great idea. I have just two (2) questions: given the cost of tunnels in this part of the world, xould the price of the tunnel preclude its being built?
Also, what route would you use to get it over the South Arm of the Fraser. Inside the new George Massey? Probably not, given the opposition. So how would you route it?
Would it be possible to do a diagram? That's be great. Thanks.
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  #3473  
Old Posted May 28, 2019, 8:51 PM
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I'm not seeing the point - the longer route will likely negate any land cost savings, and then you're giving up Surrey in favour of... Ladner? Richmond?
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  #3474  
Old Posted May 29, 2019, 5:40 AM
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  #3475  
Old Posted May 29, 2019, 6:35 AM
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VICTORIA — At a recent announcement on health care funding, an off-topic question to Premier John Horgan brought an unexpected answer.

“The Massey tunnel — people are getting more and more upset with the delay. What’s going to happen?” was the question.

Had the premier been conversant with his own government’s policy on a replacement for the greatly congested tunnel, he could have responded as follows: “Work to develop options for a long-term solution for the George Massey crossing is underway.”

Indeed, that was the wording of a Transportation Ministry press release a few days before Horgan spoke out.

“The ministry will work closely with the newly formed Metro Vancouver mayors’ task force, Indigenous groups, TransLink, local municipalities and other stakeholders to explore and evaluate crossing options,” it continued.

Evaluating which option would best reduce congestion, support transit, enhance the movement of goods and promote a healthy environment would take time.

And, as the ministry noted in its May 16 press release, this would not be a rush job.

“The target completion for this phase of work is the end of November 2019. … A final business case will be completed by fall 2020.”

The leisurely pace was in keeping with strategy the New Democrats adopted after killing the previous B.C. Liberal government plan to replace the tunnel with a 10-lane bridge. Namely, stall as long as possible to avoid having to commit to project and a price tag much before the next election.

But in answering the aforementioned question on May 23, Horgan made news by suggesting that the NDP had abandoned its go-slow policy and switched to a fast track on replacing the tunnel.

“I think we can get going on this quite quickly,” Horgan told reporters. “Minister Claire Trevena is seized with this opportunity.”

Horgan also suggested that the choice of a replacement project had already been made — thanks to a recommendation from the regional mayors’ council.

“I’m very excited that the mayors’ council have come to an agreement that the best way forward would be to twin the tunnel.”

Horgan didn’t deny that the twinned tunnel would be expensive. “There’s a lot of money involved,” he conceded. “But we know that this is one of the significant congestion points in the region. We want to do our best to fix that.”

He insisted that the twin tunnel option would come in at “significantly less cost than the proposal that was on the table prior to the election, in the many, many billions of dollars.”

The B.C. Liberals budgeted the 10-lane crossing at $3.5 billion. Todd Stone, the transportation minister in that government, maintains that before leaving office, the Liberals had received a low bid for $2.6 billion.

The twinned tunnel could cost more than either amount — as much as $4 billion. That’s according to Stan Cowdell, the engineer the New Democrats hired to re-evaluate the B.C. Liberal plans for the project.

Horgan also suggested that Ottawa would be on board to share the cost of construction, now that the New Democrats have abandoned the B.C. Liberal plan to fund the crossing with tolls. But that remains to be seen, given existing federal commitments for infrastructure projects in B.C.

Horgan’s apparent green-lighting of the twin-tunnel option drew a “what the premier meant to say” clarification from the Ministry of Transportation.

“People are tired of being stuck in traffic, that’s why we are working with the communities to move forward with a long-term solution,” said the statement attributed to Trevena. “As the premier indicated earlier today, consensus among the mayors allows government to get started on this in a more timely way.”

Then came a significant caveat. “Last week, a request for proposals was posted on B.C. Bid (the government website) for a technical team to complete the engineering work on the viable options.”

The request, far from supporting Horgan’s view that a twinned tunnel was the best and cheapest option, indicated the choice was an open question.

“The successful proponent will provide transportation, planning and professional and technical services for development and evaluation of the … crossing.”

Options to be evaluated included a long-span bridge, a bored tunnel, an immersed tube tunnel or tunnels, possible uses (if any) of the existing tunnel and any combination thereof.

Far from stacking the deck in favour of a twinned tunnel, the proponent was asked to appoint a key team member as the lead for consideration of each option.

All this, plus consultations with First Nations and the public, to be completed by the end of 2019. Final report to be delivered at the consultant’s discretion. All work, including follow-ups, to be wrapped up by May of next year. Total fees capped at $2 million.

Only then will the ministry get on with preparing a proper business plan for the replacement project, with full costing of the preferred option and the rationale for so choosing. That’s due by late 2020, 18 months hence.

After reading over the ministry’s own request for a project evaluation, issued six days before the premier made his pseudo-announcement, two possibilities suggest themselves.

Either this whole exercise will turn out to be a sham, crafted to get the premier the answer he wants on twinning the tunnel just before the next election.

Or that in suggesting that the “best way forward is to twin the tunnel” and the government “can get going on this quite quickly,” Horgan did not know what he was talking about.

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  #3476  
Old Posted May 29, 2019, 7:13 AM
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we have literally thrown out 5yrs of consultations and work for no reason other than politics. sigh.
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  #3477  
Old Posted May 29, 2019, 8:00 AM
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I think the worst part about this is major transportation projects are being decided by a “mayors task force”
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  #3478  
Old Posted May 29, 2019, 4:05 PM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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To be fair, did anyone actually participate in the public consultation during the tenure of the previous government? Like literally, the options presented were "support the project" or "don't support the project". I would have supported the bridge replacement, but really hated the interchange design that they came up with at both ends of the bridge... And thus, I'm actually glad they're taking their time to evaluate all the different possibilities. Hopefully, this will mean the public can get a say on the alternatives.
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  #3479  
Old Posted May 29, 2019, 4:11 PM
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To be fair, did anyone actually participate in the public consultation during the tenure of the previous government? Like literally, the options were "support the project" or "don't support the project". I would have supported the bridge replacement, but really hated the interchange design that they came up with at both ends of the bridge... So I'm actually glad they're taking their time to evaluate all the different possibilities. Hopefully, this will mean the public can get a say on the alternatives.
There was actually a three to four year period to do that starting in 2012.

I participated.

They spent years evaluating all the same options being re-evaluated now again.

I also really don’t feel like going over once again how any option that retains the existing tunnels / existing general interchange structures and layouts is a giant waste of money / has a far worse cost benefit ratio when considering all the attributes at play (traffic flow, mass transit, safety, future proofing, ALR concerns, shipping, etc...) than the previous bridge plan.

The smart easy way out would have been to reduce the bridge from 10 lanes to 8, maybe tweak an interchange design or two, and continued with the general project.

There is no way that this tunnel project is coming in at under 2.6 billion (which was the leading bid for the bridge project before cancellation) unless it completely removes everything else (save for a few token minor bandaids) from the project besides the river crossing itself.
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  #3480  
Old Posted May 29, 2019, 4:57 PM
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"He insisted that the twin tunnel option would come in at “significantly less cost than the proposal that was on the table prior to the election, in the many, many billions of dollars.”

The B.C. Liberals budgeted the 10-lane crossing at $3.5 billion. Todd Stone, the transportation minister in that government, maintains that before leaving office, the Liberals had received a low bid for $2.6 billion.

The twinned tunnel could cost more than either amount — as much as $4 billion. That’s according to Stan Cowdell, the engineer the New Democrats hired to re-evaluate the B.C. Liberal plans for the project."

So Horgan is either a liar or just stupid. Hard to tell.
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