DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Launch 12]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Boulder should get its train... after Boulder upzones and doubles* its population.

* I'm being generous here. Boulder should quadruple its population.

I knew the anti-Boulder bullsh*t would come out of any reference to a possible train to Boulder. Why does Boulder not deserve a train, but other areas of the metro with lower densities do? (e.g., Aurora, Lakewood, Thornton)....and fake BRT doesn't count.

[jbssfelix]

Originally Posted by Launch 12

I knew the anti-Boulder bullsh*t would come out of any reference to a possible train to Boulder. Why does Boulder not deserve a train, but other areas of the metro with lower densities do? (e.g., Aurora, Lakewood, Thornton)....and fake BRT doesn't count.

Hot take....they don't.

[LooksLikeForever]

There was some fairly big transit news this week that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Obviously the southeast rail expansion isn't 'news', but glad to see it's opening.

Item 1: 2.3-mile extension of RTD Southeast Rail Line opens Friday
https://kdvr.com/2019/05/17/2-3-mile-extension-of-rtd-southeast-rail-line-opens-friday/

Item 2: Southwest Airlines announces plans to construct maintenance hangar at DIA
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/money/c...s-to-construct-maintenance-hangar-at-dia

Southwest's announcement is a $100 investment that will house three 737 planes and is the first maintenance facility that Southwest has constructed at DIA.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Launch 12

I knew the anti-Boulder bullsh*t would come out of any reference to a possible train to Boulder. Why does Boulder not deserve a train, but other areas of the metro with lower densities do? (e.g., Aurora, Lakewood, Thornton)....and fake BRT doesn't count.

Because Boulder doesn't deserve fake BRT and a commuter train that costs 50% more than any other line with ridership of 10K per day. Boulder isn't the second city of the metro area- it's a liberal wealthy backwater that ceded any point of importance when it decided to limit growth back in the 70's. The Front Range Flyer services the single most important thing in Boulder: CU, which the B Line will not and cements the fact that the B Line is fundamentally worthless to Boulder. Other cities are getting screwed, Boulder is getting exactly what it deserves given it's size and being relatively unimportant outside of being the place where CU Boulder squats.

If the rumors are true and the B line can be extended as a peak service to Westminster, Broomfield, Lousville, and Longmont (the city that really is getting the shaft in all of this) for <$250M than RTD should do that as quickly as possible and than slow-walk any other kind of improvements to the B Line for another 30 years while focusing on BRT along the Diagonal Highway. Promise met w/o shelling out an exorbitant amount of cash.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Launch 12

I knew the anti-Boulder bullsh*t would come out of any reference to a possible train to Boulder. Why does Boulder not deserve a train, but other areas of the metro with lower densities do? (e.g., Aurora, Lakewood, Thornton)....and fake BRT doesn't count.

Building on wong's insightful view...

The idea was to run diesel engine pulled trains along BNSF tracks. Utah has been successful in creating the same with a low capital cost.

So here's your assignment
Be just like John Denver and jump on a jet plane to Omaha and have a man-to-man chat with Warren Buffet. Tell him if he doesn't solve this problem yesterday he'll never be welcome in Boulder ever again. That should solve the problem. I'm pulling for ya, you can make this happen; Good Luck.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeForever

There was some fairly big transit news this week that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Obviously the southeast rail expansion isn't 'news', but glad to see it's opening.

Item 1: 2.3-mile extension of RTD Southeast Rail Line opens Friday
https://kdvr.com/2019/05/17/2-3-mile-extension-of-rtd-southeast-rail-line-opens-friday/

Thanks for the update; didn't realize the 'time had come.'

Props to Lone Tree (and DougCo) for their buy-in which enabled RTD to win yet one more nice FTA grant while the opportunity still existed. Now if they could just figure a method, like stopping at every other station, to speed these choo choo's along quicker?

Originally Posted by LooksLikeForever

Item 2: Southwest Airlines announces plans to construct maintenance hangar at DIA
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/money/c...s-to-construct-maintenance-hangar-at-dia

Southwest's announcement is a $100 investment that will house three 737 planes and is the first maintenance facility that Southwest has constructed at DIA.

Wasn't all that long ago that DIA was facing life where hubs for connecting flights were losing favor to growing point-to-point non-stop service. That was the model of success that SW Air followed. SW also favored low-cost airports which is why they passed over DIA for years.

Then add into the equation the Great Recession and DIA was dealing with quite a downdraft. Fortunately SW Air had already established their presence and still grew if more slowly than planned as a result. Frontier, though, in changing business models in favor of adding more hubs cut their DIA flights nearly in half.

Ancient history now knowing airline traffic later started taking off like a rocket ship. SW kept growing. Frontier which had been successful in creating other hubs came back to rapidly re-growing their presence in Denver. Meanwhile, Airports which had delayed expansion previously now needed to grow at costs that were 3X what DIA had already accomplished.

Now SW has found that the readily available land needed for their new facilities is ideal for locating in Denver. Impressive how far they've come.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by Launch 12

I knew the anti-Boulder bullsh*t would come out of any reference to a possible train to Boulder. Why does Boulder not deserve a train, but other areas of the metro with lower densities do? (e.g., Aurora, Lakewood, Thornton)....and fake BRT doesn't count.

Thing is, the density argument doesn't really hold up since the train is never going to stop anywhere near the actual heart of Boulder. That and Boulder proper has only grown 1% per year on average since 1990. Why exactly does it "deserve" two parts of fastracks when it is only the 8th largest city in the metro area? Like Wong said, the cities really getting screwed by no built-out B train are Louisville, Lafayette, and Longmont since the train would have gone near or through those cities (right through the middle of Louisville) and aren't really benefited by the Flatiron Flyer.

2017 107,125 -719 -0.67%
2016 107,844 382 0.36%
2015 107,462 2,181 2.07%
2014 105,281 1,674 1.62%
2013 103,607 1,554 1.52%
2012 102,053 1,004 0.99%
2011 101,049 2,279 2.31%
2010 98,770 4,097 0.42%
2000 94,673 11,361 1.29%
1990 83,312 6,627 0.83%

http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/boulder-population/

Hell, the nearby cities will probably pass it in population in 10-20 years.
Boulder 109,557
Longmont 96,068
Loveland 81,895
Broomfield 71,461

http://worldpopulationreview.com/states/colorado-population/cities/

This is another fun one, especially the city of Boulder's share of the county population.

https://www-static.bouldercolorado.gov/docs/trends-1-201307021541.pdf

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Boulder isn't the second city of the metro area- it's a liberal wealthy backwater that ceded any point of importance when it decided to limit growth back in the 70's. The Front Range Flyer services the single most important thing in Boulder: CU, which the B Line will not and cements the fact that the B Line is fundamentally worthless to Boulder. Other cities are getting screwed, Boulder is getting exactly what it deserves given it's size and being relatively unimportant outside of being the place where CU Boulder squats.

I hate Boulder's growth limits as much as the next guy, but I must say this description of Boulder is over-the-top. Boulder, in terms of being an influence-wielding, job-creating, cultural and economic center of the metropolis, is still our second city (for now at least).

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

Hell, the nearby cities will probably pass it in population in 10-20 years.
Boulder 109,557
Longmont 96,068
Loveland 81,895
Broomfield 71,461

They will. At that point a substantial proportion of their population will still be commuting to Boulder for work every day - and not the other way around.

(I'm just adding to my point above and not countering anything you said.)

[Sam Hill]

This is an interesting article regarding Boulder's growth limits (although I suspect it's already been brought up here before; if so I apologize):

Boulder, CO: Another Desirable But Over-Regulated U.S. City

Collectively, writes Dyer, this regulatory bubble that has been placed in, over and around Boulder has preserved its exclusive status. "When you have a small island of land surrounded by open space that prevents outward expansion, and you couple such a severe restriction with height limits in order to make sure that the view of the Flatirons remains unobstructed in perpetuity, and you do this in a highly desirable town with a worldwide reputation for food, culture, natural beauty, safety and affluence, it is simply impossible to hold back housing price escalation."

The city may have an interesting downtown, but bike a quarter mile out, and you are faced with the same strip-mall development found throughout America. This didn't result because Boulder was "over-developed", but because density in an otherwise hot market was never allowed, meaning there is minimal pedestrian traffic or mixed uses. In these areas, lifting the height limit might be a boon, not a bane, to Boulder's urban character.

[twister244]

I may have said this before, but I feel like the folks who are the most upset about not having a train go to Boulder are people that would rarely use it. The train would hit Boulder Junction Depot near the Google campus, then shoot north to Longmont, completely missing the campus and downtown. So, folks in Lafayette/Louisville would have to drive to a park-n-ride, hop on a train, get into town, then transfer to a local bus to get to their final destination.

Or...... they could just drive to a park-n-ride on 36, wait a couple minutes for a FF bus, and get off right next to campus/downtown and walk to their final destinations. It's also worth noting the FF4 goes to Boulder Junction Depot already and has a stop right in front of the Google Campus. There's also the FF6, which picks up people in the business park area on the east side of town near Upslope.

As someone that commutes from Denver to Boulder, I couldn't see the train impacting my commuting patterns that much. In fact, it's entirely possible the FF2 would still take less time to get into Boulder compared to the train. From the moment I walk on to when I get off at the Table Mesa park-n-ride, it's about 30 minutes. I would expect the train to take longer than that given it has more stops than the FF2.

Everyone in Boulder loves to complain about not having a train until you start digging down into the cost analysis and begin to agree with why RTD didn't put their eggs into that basket. Now, if there's a low-cost alternative where a train runs a few times during rush hour, then sure, go for it. But, I am not in favor of dumping over a billion dollars just to appease some whiny Boulderites.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

This is stereotyping and entire group of people based on the actions of a handful of people.

Which urban liberals do every day when it’s about the President and his supporters. But when it’s millennials and cyclists it is somehow different. The hypocrisy is real.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by twister244

The train would hit Boulder Junction Depot near the Google campus, then shoot north to Longmont, completely missing the campus and downtown. So, folks in Lafayette/Louisville would have to drive to a park-n-ride, hop on a train, get into town, then transfer to a local bus to get to their final destination.

I haven't really familiarized myself with the technicalities that make routing the train through the actual heart of Boulder impractical (I'm guessing it's a cost thing), but man, that just sucks. When I found out how that line would be routed, my whole fantasy of how cool it would be to have a commuter train connecting Denver to Boulder was shot through the heart. If that's the only train we can get, then what the hell's the point? I'd rather it not get built until we can figure out a way to build a real one (probably an unrealistic fantasy, I know).

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Which urban liberals do every day when it’s about the President and his supporters. But when it’s millennials and cyclists it is somehow different. The hypocrisy is real.

I don't know if that's an apt comparison. People judge Trump's supporters based upon the actions and words of Trump himself. Support of Trump is absolutely mind-boggling. In order to think it's a good idea for that man to be president, one would have to be at least unintelligent enough to somehow not be able to tell that he's unintelligent. And you might not necessarily have to be a bigot, but you would at least have to be content with the idea of having a bigot run our country. We're talking about a man who forged his political career by publicly promoting a racist conspiracy theory that our president is secretly a Muslim immigrant. In the America I grew up in, that would be automatically disqualifying. But America isn't America anymore.

[TakeFive]

Well done!

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

That and Boulder proper has only grown 1% per year on average since 1990.

• Video Link

Dems/K.C Becker have a solid plan to ask voters next year to allow the state to keep any TABOR related $'s and divide them among education and CDOT/transportation instead of returning these $'s to taxpayers. The amounts could be nominal or significant depending... In a lead up to the election CDOT will be doing a broad outreach to the public for feedback. It's pretty open-ended enabling citizens to express whatever is important to them with respect to transportation. This is a smart move although there's always the possibility that 'special interests' will try to hijack the process.

Not sure who designed CDOT's web page; seems a little convoluted but it's mostly functional.

Colorado's gas tax of 22 cents per gallon hasn't increased since 1991, and does not increase with inflation. With what was collected in the '90s, CDOT was able to spend $125 per person on transportation—

Today, the gas tax remains at 22 cents per gallon, and now CDOT can only spend $69 per person on transportation. And the future is projecting worse, with just $41 per person 20 years from now.

Hello Republican talking points

It's easy to ask that we become more efficient and stretch those dollars, but when you look at the reality, we've been doing more with less for a long time. In fact, today we're really doing less with less.

our state grew by 50 percent over the last 20 years and is projected to grow another 50 percent over the next 20 years. If our funding remains as it is, you will see that impact on the roads.

The advantage with this proposal is that at least a pool of funding is designated for funding transportation and education. The disadvantage is that without a good idea of how much will be there it's harder to plan ahead. The biggest benefit is it precludes Republicans from constantly blocking spending and it precludes Dems from spending this money on their favorite cause of the day.

Pure politics

https://www.cpr.org/news/story/colorado-is-entering-a-new-environmental-eramaybe

More than a dozen new energy and environment bills are headed to Gov. Jared Polis for a signature. They cover an array of issues from the oversight of electrical generating companies to how companies have to factor climate change into their decision making

Some of this sounds like house-keeping but why do I get the feeling they also passed the "lawyer's jobs bill"? Will this mean that the painful and delay, delay antics of Central 70 will play out anytime CDOT wants to do something? In general I foresee boatloads of $'s being needed for monitoring, studying, all kinds of fun nerdy things. Best of luck, Colorado, your Nanny government is here to protect you.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

I don't know if that's an apt comparison. People judge Trump's supporters based upon the actions and words of Trump himself. Support of Trump is absolutely mind-boggling. In order to think it's a good idea for that man to be president, one would have to be at least unintelligent enough to somehow not be able to tell that he's unintelligent. And you might not necessarily have to be a bigot, but you would at least have to be content with the idea of having a bigot run our country. We're talking about a man who forged his political career by publicly promoting a racist conspiracy theory that our president is secretly a Muslim immigrant. In the America I grew up in, that would be automatically disqualifying. But America isn't America anymore.

Not that I necessarily disagree but that's a totally liberal take.

Reality is that most everyday Americans don't have the time to obsess over every silly or stupid thing that's tweeted. They have lives to lead and kids that need this, that and so on.

The majority mostly care about the big picture and their own personal circumstances. Am I better or worse off today than 4 years ago? That's the challenge for Dems. What's your plan for my family's needs; don't tell me about all your silly complaints. Even when Trump is wrong the visual is that he 'puts America first' and why should voters dislike that?

Not interested in getting into specific issues; I'm merely trying to reflect the big picture as seen through the eyes of the body politic.

[bunt_q]

Dp

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

People [also] judge Bernie’s supporters based upon the actions and words of Bernie himself. Support of Bernie is absolutely mind-boggling [to me]. In order to think it's a good idea for that man to be president, one would have to be at least unintelligent enough to somehow not be able to tell that he's unintelligent. And you might not necessarily have to be [incapable if doing third grade math] but you would at least have to be content with the idea of having [unicorns and rainbows] run our country. We're talking about a man who forged his political career by publicly promoting a [Europhile] conspiracy theor[ies] [and the idea that we can all be lazy and entitled and enjoy a lot of something for nothing.] In the America I grew up in, that would be automatically disqualifying. But America isn't America anymore.

Fixed it for you.

My current 2020 ballot preferences are:
Biden>Trump
Harris>Trump
Trump>Bernie
Trump>Warren
Trump>Pete B (if only because he’s 12 years old and should have a real job in politics once first).
Trump>Beto (I want to vote for winners).
If that makes me an unintelligent bigot, so be it; at least I’m not a cyclist!

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Fixed it for you.

That was a pointless exercise. The two versions are not equivalent.

In the first version, the most powerful nation on earth gets swept up in a wave of ethnic and religious nationalism and elects a demagogue who espouses deranged conspiracy theories and can't speak in complete sentences without the use of a teleprompter. The world has trouble sleeping at night knowing he has the launch codes.

In the second version, the most powerful nation on earth gets swept up in a wave of unicorns and rainbows and elects an impractically liberal politician who fails to deliver on any of his unrealistic promises. The world is slightly more annoyed by America's politics than usual.

America may not be America anymore, but it's still America enough that you can't get elected president going around calling yourself a socialist. We don't have to worry about Bernie.

Damn, I wish you wouldn't have brought up Trump and I wish I had not taken the bait, because this conversation can't go anywhere good. It's destined to end up like the comments section of a news article. I quit, lol.

[TakeFive]

If he runs I may vote for Justin Amash, R Mich.

It probably wouldn't be appropriate to vote for John McCain again so I gotta come up with somebody. Kamala does impress. Mark June 26th and 27th on your calendar.