General STO News and Rapibus System

[Horus]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

routes 88, 93,94 and 85 still serve downtown hull during peak hours and they do use the rapibus corridor so yes the previous poster was correct in his assessment.

All of those routes work along Maisonneuve through Hull (serving Place d'Accueil) and only 93 uses any of the Rapibus corridor. None of those routes interact with the Aylmer/Plateau/Hull routes which plug up along Promenade du Portage, so I maintain my point.

Maisonneuve and Allumettières may be used by Rapibus routes, but it can't be considered Rapibus corridor and it is clearly the weak link in the system. Buses operate in mixed traffic with some HOV lanes, but are at the mercy of road conditions when trying to shift lanes in order to navigate the left turn at the intersection of those two roads, and again when attempting to enter the separate Rapibus corridor at Montcalm (Gatineau-bound). Ottawa-bound buses flow generally well at most times.

The segregated segments of Rapibus work fantastically well to the point that there would be little benefit to converting that to LRT at this time. It is the on-street routing around Ile de Hull that is problematic and unreliable.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Horus

All of those routes work along Maisonneuve through Hull (serving Place d'Accueil) and only 93 uses any of the Rapibus corridor. None of those routes interact with the Aylmer/Plateau/Hull routes which plug up along Promenade du Portage, so I maintain my point.

Maisonneuve and Allumettières may be used by Rapibus routes, but it can't be considered Rapibus corridor and it is clearly the weak link in the system. Buses operate in mixed traffic with some HOV lanes, but are at the mercy of road conditions when trying to shift lanes in order to navigate the left turn at the intersection of those two roads, and again when attempting to enter the separate Rapibus corridor at Montcalm (Gatineau-bound). Ottawa-bound buses flow generally well at most times.

The segregated segments of Rapibus work fantastically well to the point that there would be little benefit to converting that to LRT at this time. It is the on-street routing around Ile de Hull that is problematic and unreliable.

You missed his point, the rapibus routes have higher ridership that justifies conversion to lrt than aylmer and plateau routes and I agree with that.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

If we converted the Rapibus to LRT and built a tunnel under Old Hull and the river linking to the Confederation Line, this would free a lot of space downtown for Aylmer and Plateau buses. The ridership forecast for 2031 is far higher for the Rapibus than either the Aylmer LRT or Plateau LRT.

emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

You missed his point, the rapibus routes have higher ridership that justifies conversion to lrt than aylmer and plateau routes and I agree with that.

I'm not arguing that. Rapibus presently has more ridership than Aylmer and Plateau routes and likely will continue to do so. It's designed that way and works well as a spine route from Eastern areas of Gatineau.

I am disputing any claim that converting Rapibus to LRT will be of benefit to existing Aylmer or Plateau bus routes. It won't. They don't operate in the same spaces now and converting Rapibus to LRT alone doesn't change that.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Horus

emphasis mine.



I'm not arguing that. Rapibus presently has more ridership than Aylmer and Plateau routes and likely will continue to do so. It's designed that way and works well as a spine route from Eastern areas of Gatineau.

I am disputing any claim that converting Rapibus to LRT will be of benefit to existing Aylmer or Plateau bus routes. It won't. They don't operate in the same spaces now and converting Rapibus to LRT alone doesn't change that.

If the rapibus was converted to lrt then the Alymer and Plateau buses could use Maisonneuve and Allumettières since there will be no more rapibus routes on them and that would be a faster route to Ottawa than using Alymer and tache.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

If the rapibus was converted to lrt then the Alymer and Plateau buses could use Maisonneuve and Allumettières since there will be no more rapibus routes on them and that would be a faster route to Ottawa than using Alymer and tache.

Have you ever been on des Allumettières during peak hours? That is not an advantage for buses trying to travel between Ottawa and west of Gatineau Park.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Horus

Have you ever been on des Allumettières during peak hours? That is not an advantage for buses trying to travel between Ottawa and west of Gatineau Park.

yes I have since live next to it and it's better than tache anyday. Allumettiers still has room for aylmer and plateau buses even with some of the buses currently using it so your statement is just an opinion that I dont agree with.

[Aylmer]

Taché backs up for cars, but its reserved lanes do a decent job of keeping congestion out of the way of buses. Having buses wait behind cars on Des All would definitely be a step backwards in terms of service. Of course, if they removed a car lane on Des All to make it a bus lane, it might be an alright option for the Plateau (although Chemin d'Aylmer, which is a significantly more direct and populous route).

[Horus]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

yes I have since live next to it and it's better than tache anyday. Allumettiers still has room for aylmer and plateau buses even with some of the buses currently using it so your statement is just an opinion that I dont agree with.

If it made any sense for Aylmer/Plateau buses to be using Allumettières/Maisonneuve at all, they'd be doing it now. Removing the 3-4 Rapibus vehicles that use that route every 10 min isn't going to magically make it so much better that they'd shift those Aylmer/Plateau routes.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Horus

If it made any sense for Aylmer/Plateau buses to be using Allumettières/Maisonneuve at all, they'd be doing it now. Removing the 3-4 Rapibus vehicles that use that route every 10 min isn't going to magically make it so much better that they'd shift those Aylmer/Plateau routes.

the city of gatineau is rather slow in making changes that make sense and that's why you don't see aylmer and plateau buses on Allumettiers/Maisonneuve even though there is room for them. And for the other poster there are bus lanes on these streets as well and they work fine.

[Aylmer]

Those reserved lanes were carved out of the 6-lane section east of the A50. Des All between St Raymond and the 50 is a completely different challenge; between a complete redesign and rebuild of the Wrightville roundabouts, the reconstruction of a wider Lac-des-fées bridge, and the re-dynamiting of the Gatineau Park, the cost of adding reserved lanes to the road is likely to far outstrip the rather slim benefits of doing so. Converting two lanes of traffic in its most congested stretch would be more feasible, if no less contentious. Although again, I question whether the benefits would justify even that.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by Horus

Which downtown are you referring to? Peak hour Rapibus routes (route 200) don't even serve downtown Hull as they travel from Montcalm station to Lyon via Allumettières and Maisonneuve without any additional stops. Essentially all of the buses plugging up Portage and Taché are already the Aylmer/Plateau/Hull routes, so a Rapibus LRT tunnel won't change that.

Rapibus vehicles are maybe 1 out of 5 or 6 STO buses on Wellington once they've crossed the bridge, but generally, taking away those buses isn't really going to change much there either.

I don't know the STO very much, so correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I see, there are 38 STO buses using Wellington in front of the Parliament. There only seems to be 13 of these from Aylmer and the Plateau : 22, 23, 24, 29, 34, 40, 41, 44, 45, 46, 47, 55 and 59. If I understand correctly, buses 25, 26, 27, 36, 37, 371, 38, 400 and 20 run in downtown Hull and all of these seem to be from Hull and Gatineau. If the Rapibus was converted to LRT with a tunnel under Old Hull and the river, these buses would then feed the LRT and free a lot of space in both Ottawa downtown and Hull.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

I don't know the STO very much, so correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I see, there are 38 STO buses using Wellington in front of the Parliament. There only seems to be 13 of these from Aylmer and the Plateau : 22, 23, 24, 29, 34, 40, 41, 44, 45, 46, 47, 55 and 59. If I understand correctly, buses 25, 26, 27, 36, 37, 371, 38, 400 and 20 run in downtown Hull and all of these seem to be from Hull and Gatineau. If the Rapibus was converted to LRT with a tunnel under Old Hull and the river, these buses would then feed the LRT and free a lot of space in both Ottawa downtown and Hull.

yep you are correct about that

[Horus]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

I don't know the STO very much, so correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I see, there are 38 STO buses using Wellington in front of the Parliament. There only seems to be 13 of these from Aylmer and the Plateau : 22, 23, 24, 29, 34, 40, 41, 44, 45, 46, 47, 55 and 59. If I understand correctly, buses 25, 26, 27, 36, 37, 371, 38, 400 and 20 run in downtown Hull and all of these seem to be from Hull and Gatineau. If the Rapibus was converted to LRT with a tunnel under Old Hull and the river, these buses would then feed the LRT and free a lot of space in both Ottawa downtown and Hull.

True enough, some space might be freed up in Ottawa, but by the same token, the proposed Aylmer SLRT would remove all of the Aylmer/Plateau buses from that area, freeing up space for the Gatineau and Rapibus vehicles.
In either case, freeing up space on Wellington in Ottawa shouldn't be the determining factor on where to spend LRT dollars.

[Aylmer]

It's also worth pointing out that, unlike the Transitway and the Rapibus, the west end's capacity problems aren't limited to the downtown portion. Whereas the BRT routes have mostly grade-separated infrastructure except for downtown, the west end has surface-level routes outside downtown too. As other posters have pointed out, this lowers the capacity ceiling for all modes, which are limited by the maximum frequency permitted by signal priority. So even though the Rapibus corridor has greater ridership, the west end is likely to hit its bus capacity ceiling sooner than Gatineau will.

We can kick the can down the road a few years by spending 100's of millions on improved bus lanes, but we'll still end up in the situation of having to build LRT only a few years later after the slightly-higher ceiling will be hit. The end result is that we will have spent more (BRT and LRT instead of just LRT), and undergone disruptive construction twice.

Finally, let's not forget that building LRT - no matter in which direction - will make it easier to extend in the other. Once the most expensive and difficult portion (downtown) is completed, then adding branches east or north will be significantly easier.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

We can kick the can down the road a few years by spending 100's of millions on improved bus lanes, but we'll still end up in the situation of having to build LRT only a few years later after the slightly-higher ceiling will be hit. The end result is that we will have spent more (BRT and LRT instead of just LRT), and undergone disruptive construction twice.

I believe this is exactly why they did it. I vaguely remember someone saying they studied briefly brt vs lrt, and the brt would hit capacity in 10 or so years. Said they didn't want to build something if it'd hit capacity within 10 years, especially if another option had higher capacity within the same time.

[Gat-Train]

Originally Posted by corynv

I believe this is exactly why they did it. I vaguely remember someone saying they studied briefly brt vs lrt, and the brt would hit capacity in 10 or so years. Said they didn't want to build something if it'd hit capacity within 10 years, especially if another option had higher capacity within the same time.

Not only that, but there are likely significant operational savings that will result from replacing buses with LRT.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

In terms of cities than run coupled trams at street level, I can think of Munich, Cologne, The Hague, and Berlin off the top of my head. And of course, there's the monster, 56 m Budapest trams which carry upwards of 560 passengers.



Ottawa's BRT performed admirably because, save the downtown portion, it opted for near-total grade separation. Operating at street level with dedicated lanes, BRT to the west of Gatineau would have a much lower capacity ceiling. According to the STO's study, we would hit that effective limit within the first 5 years of operation. BRT is certainly cheaper than rail, but it's not so cheap as to be disposable after that short a time.

Street-level LRT also has a lower capacity ceiling than Metro-LRT. But even the lower ceiling is high enough to satisfy capacity needs for decades to come in this case.

I don't know Budapest well, but from what I've been reading, their tram is mostly grade separated. "Most of the routes I have seen are on a dedicated lane or right-of-way, which is at least separated from car traffic by concrete "balls", so cars are unlikely to invade the tram route." Is it really safe to run such long trains through mixed traffic ? Especially considering that Budapest drivers are used to trams, which isn't the case in Gatineau or Ottawa. The whole line would be paralyzed every time there's an accident (or road construction).

It is even possible to run such long trams through mixed traffic ? Hamilton, ON plans to limit LRT trains length to 28m to not block intersections. If someone is more familiar than me with Gatineau's transit planning, I would like to know if longer trams are possible.

Using 2011 data, the STO already runs 120 buses per direction per hour on Wellington in front of the Parliament without any grade separation. An articulated bus can hold up to 110 passengers. If all there buses were articulated, this means a PPHPD (people per hour per direction) of up to 13200. That's far more than the 3900 for a tram.

Aylmer has the same problem Vanier has : there's very little room for a segregated LRT or BRT.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

I don't know Budapest well, but from what I've been reading, their tram is mostly grade separated. "Most of the routes I have seen are on a dedicated lane or right-of-way, which is at least separated from car traffic by concrete "balls", so cars are unlikely to invade the tram route." Is it really safe to run such long trains through mixed traffic ? Especially considering that Budapest drivers are used to trams, which isn't the case in Gatineau or Ottawa. The whole line would be paralyzed every time there's an accident (or road construction).

I think you're conflating grade separation (no intersections, tunnels, aerial structures) and lane separation (at-grade, but with its own dedicated right of way separated by the concrete balls mentioned in your post). This graph helped me understand the difference:




Although Gatineau doesn't appear to be considering an Ottawa-style fully grade-separated system (ROW A), no one is advocating a Toronto streetcar-style mixed traffic system either (ROW C).

Gatineau appears to be going for ROW B, much like Budapest: separate lanes at grade.

It is even possible to run such long trams through mixed traffic ? Hamilton, ON plans to limit LRT trains length to 28m to not block intersections. If someone is more familiar than me with Gatineau's transit planning, I would like to know if longer trams are possible.

Hamilton's context isn't very accommodating of long vehicles because the two streets it runs down have very frequent intersections (every 50-200m) throughout, many of which are important cross-routes. The route which Gatineau is proposing lies on the other extreme with little cross-traffic and infrequent intersections. The one exception is Old Aylmer, where smal cross-streets are likely to be restricted to right-turns only. But at only about 0.7 km out of 20+ km, this is a pretty small section.

Using 2011 data, the STO already runs 120 buses per direction per hour on Wellington in front of the Parliament without any grade separation. An articulated bus can hold up to 110 passengers. If all there buses were articulated, this means a PPHPD (people per hour per direction) of up to 13200. That's far more than the 3900 for a tram.

I don't know how often you've taken the bus down Wellington, but it's an excrutiatingly slow crawl in increasingly overcrowded buses. It's tolerable only because it's a relatively short section. But as the west's population and transportation demand continue to swell, the bus jams will continue to extend further down the line, reliability will continue to dwindle, overcrowding will continue to get worse, and service speed will continue to decline.

So yes, it's possible to fit that number of buses and passengers into a lane. I can also squeeze myself into pants four sizes down. It just isn't possible to do either well or for any length of time.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I think you're conflating grade separation (no intersections, tunnels, aerial structures) and lane separation (at-grade, but with its own dedicated right of way separated by the concrete balls mentioned in your post). This graph helped me understand the difference:




Although Gatineau doesn't appear to be considering an Ottawa-style fully grade-separated system (ROW A), no one is advocating a Toronto streetcar-style mixed traffic system either (ROW C).

Gatineau appears to be going for ROW B, much like Budapest: separate lanes at grade.






Hamilton's context isn't very accommodating of long vehicles because the two streets it runs down have very frequent intersections (every 50-200m) throughout, many of which are important cross-routes. The route which Gatineau is proposing lies on the other extreme with little cross-traffic and infrequent intersections. The one exception is Old Aylmer, where smal cross-streets are likely to be restricted to right-turns only. But at only about 0.7 km out of 20+ km, this is a pretty small section.



I don't know how often you've taken the bus down Wellington, but it's an excrutiatingly slow crawl in increasingly overcrowded buses. It's tolerable only because it's a relatively short section. But as the west's population and transportation demand continue to swell, the bus jams will continue to extend further down the line, reliability will continue to dwindle, overcrowding will continue to get worse, and service speed will continue to decline.

So yes, it's possible to fit that number of buses and passengers into a lane. I can also squeeze myself into pants four sizes down. It just isn't possible to do either well or for any length of time.

I would support a median LRT like the one you've shown, but for now, Gatineau is planning to run the trams along the sidewalk. That's quite risky considering the amount of side roads and turning vehicles on Aylmer Road.

I do realize that there are far too many buses on Wellington, but even if we halved the amount of buses, we would still get a max PPHPD of 6600, far above the 3900 Gatineau is planning, assuming there would be transit priority.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

I would support a median LRT like the one you've shown, but for now, Gatineau is planning to run the trams along the sidewalk. That's quite risky considering the amount of side roads and turning vehicles on Aylmer Road.

I wouldn't agree to that either. But exactly for the reason you mentioned, I think it's unlikely that particular layout will make the cut. In any case, I'm not too worried; it's basically just a prettied-up screenshot of Streetmix.net, and I remember seeing median-running concepts too, so I wouldn't assume that it's anywhere near a final decision.

I do realize that there are far too many buses on Wellington, but even if we halved the amount of buses, we would still get a max PPHPD of 6600, far above the 3900 Gatineau is planning, assuming there would be transit priority.

A bus every 60 seconds is unstable under the best of conditions. If you throw in intersections and variable passenger loads and it quickly becomes impossible to maintain. Again, you can make it work, but you can't make it work well.

The comparison between a signal priority and non signal priority mode is a false one since they don't provide the same speed, regularity, or reliability. Scheduling a bus or a tram every 60 seconds means that passengers will be waiting at red lights, behind alighting vehicles, and at stations waiting for the next bunch to arrive. Scheduling every 4-5 minutes means a faster, reliable ride.

This is perhaps the biggest advantage of light rail; by running long vehicles, you can ensure a high capacity while maintaining a sustainably low frequency despite a lack of grade separation. In that context, a single signal priority bus lane can carry 1500 (standard artic) to 2700 (bi-articulated bus) pphpd while a signal priority tram lane can achieve anywhere from 3900 (260-person trams) to 8400 (Budapest's 560-person trams) pphpd.

If we're considering spending on a at-grade system which will require sub-4-minute frequencies from day 1, we're spending on something which will quickly become obsolete.