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  #501  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2019, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
That doesn't directly explain why there is such a variation between stations in Metro Vancouver, not only spatially (when a station down the street is 15 cents a liter cheaper than another station) but temporally (when the price at 2am is 15 cents cheaper than the price at 2pm).

In that quote, "oil companies" are not the same as "gas station companies", right?
Was about to respond but you beat me to it. I think you're being charitable when you say "doesn't directly explain"; I would say it doesn't explain the games being played with price at all.

WestCoastEcho, I agree there is a supply issue not keeping up with demand. Basic economics does play a part here. That explains why prices overall are higher compared to three, five, or ten years ago. But, as CanSpice said, that's not an answer for why a gas station sells the same fuel for two vastly different prices every day. As Warren said, this is a straightforward commodity. The structure in which a price is determined for gas, similar to any other good for consumption, should be essentially A+B+C=(price). And for some reason it's not that simple. The stations are not getting two deliveries a day, one significantly more expensive than the other.

The oil companies say stations are responsible for setting prices in a way where they cover the cost of purchasing the fuel and are able to make a profit. In other words, it's the stations' fault that prices are the way they are. Yet the stations themselves say head office (read: oil companies) tells them what price the fuel must be sold at and even communicate the mid-day price reductions.

So who to believe?
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  #502  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2019, 7:49 PM
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Originally Posted by bluefox View Post
The oil companies say stations are responsible for setting prices in a way where they cover the cost of purchasing the fuel and are able to make a profit. In other words, it's the stations' fault that prices are the way they are. Yet the stations themselves say head office (read: oil companies) tells them what price the fuel must be sold at and even communicate the mid-day price reductions.

So who to believe?
Along Lougheed near the Coquitlam/PoCo border there's four gas stations. I always see someone from the Shell at Westwood & Lougheed in the median with binoculars so they can see what the price is at the Save-On Gas down Lougheed. These four stations (the other two are a Chevron and one attached to a Real Canadian Superstore) are always within a penny or two of each other. I strongly suspect stations are responsible for setting their own prices.
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  #503  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2019, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
Along Lougheed near the Coquitlam/PoCo border there's four gas stations. I always see someone from the Shell at Westwood & Lougheed in the median with binoculars so they can see what the price is at the Save-On Gas down Lougheed. These four stations (the other two are a Chevron and one attached to a Real Canadian Superstore) are always within a penny or two of each other. I strongly suspect stations are responsible for setting their own prices.
Depends on ownership. Sometimes they are given the signal to change prices, other times it's just "match Shell down the street whenever they change."

When there are drastically different prices on stations across the street from each other, it's because somebody is asleep at the switch, ignoring the guidelines, or some other human error.
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  #504  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2019, 9:46 PM
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There was some pretty wild swings this weekend in Kelowna. $1.49 at a PetroCan on Friday morning, $1.35 Saturday morning at a nearby Esso.
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  #505  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 10:39 AM
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It almost seems to me that the solution would be for the provincial government to set a government mandated fixed price. That once a year would be reevaluated and set again for the next year. Kind of like how the pricing of our hydro and natural gas is set.

They could set it to, as an example, $1.50/litre. That would then be the price of gas for the next year. Then it would be increased or decreased the next year depending on the average price of oil, possible the inflation rate, and what other factors go into the price of gas.

That would mean if the price of oil happened to become cheaper during the year than the gas company would keep the extra profit. But if the price of oil went up during the year the gas company would get less of a profit.


On a side thought, I do wonder if the price of gas flucates as much in a commercial card lock.
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  #506  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 3:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bluefox View Post
Was about to respond but you beat me to it. I think you're being charitable when you say "doesn't directly explain"; I would say it doesn't explain the games being played with price at all.
Vancouver seems to be a very strange market for gas. I remember the year when the price that all of the gas stations posted on their big signs was 1 cent a litre more than they actually charged. That would be a crazy idea in almost any other market, but once it got started all of the stations quickly joined in...

I imagine that what's happening with the nighttime pricing is that one of the companies decided to incentivize late night purchases to justify the cost of keeping the station open 24 hours by selling at closer to cost, and once that happened all the other stations had to follow suit so that they didn't loose all of their sales.

What's incredible to me is that every time I drive down into the US beyond a tankful of the border I see all these vastly different gas prices. I find it hard to believe that one station can charge so much more than another and still stay in business. It seems that Americans have bought into the idea that one company's gas is worth a lot more than another's. Canadians seem to treat the stuff as much more like a commodity and they're not willing to pay much, if any, price premium for one brand over another.
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  #507  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SFUVancouver View Post
There was some pretty wild swings this weekend in Kelowna. $1.49 at a PetroCan on Friday morning, $1.35 Saturday morning at a nearby Esso.
CTV had a piece on the local news last night that virtually all of the price increases in Vancouver are going straight back to line the pockets of Alberta companies. Anyone who thinks the firms that shut down refineries here to limit supply will somehow turn charitable and increase supply in the Lower Mainland through TMX to lower prices is deluded.

It's more than a coincidence that these price hikes happen right around when Kenney takes office. It's all designed to put pressure on the Government of BC, and they don't care if consumers are collateral damage.
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  #508  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
CTV had a piece on the local news last night that virtually all of the price increases in Vancouver are going straight back to line the pockets of Alberta companies. Anyone who thinks the firms that shut down refineries here to limit supply will somehow turn charitable and increase supply in the Lower Mainland through TMX to lower prices is deluded.

It's more than a coincidence that these price hikes happen right around when Kenney takes office. It's all designed to put pressure on the Government of BC, and they don't care if consumers are collateral damage.

Exactly. It's 'a fools errand' to think that once the pipeline would be expanded we will get cheaper gas. I gotta remind that the new pipeline will be 12X the amount currently going through the trans mountain; so does that mean our gas would go down by as much? Not bloody likely and i'd be surprised if we got an average 5cent reduction on prices if anything.

Thing is, once they get away with building the pipeline I would place good money on them turning around and stating something along the lines of:
'Well because of the inflation of costs of refinement and excessive delays on pipeline expansion there will only be a negligible impact on lowering the prices of gasoline now that we have additional capacity, it's really all the fault of taxes the government imposes that your gas is so expensive'.

Once we get another 'right of centre' government in BC that wins votes by lowering taxes, they will once again have enough time to turn around and say something like:
'golly gee, it's weird that removing taxes didn't have enough of an impact as we told you to think it would on your gas, I guess BC's only choice now is to give our fellow oil companies tax exemptions and rebates for having to bring you product through those crazy; bigly tall mountains. Such an obstacle they are for us and keeping prices down'.
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  #509  
Old Posted May 1, 2019, 1:32 AM
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As soon as consumers discover that prices don't drop and in fact probably go UP when the pipeline is built, I think we will see a major shift to EVs in BC, if not a true consumer revolt (not just "don't buy gas on day X" type things going around on social media). We'll reach a breaking point and people will start actually protesting.

Canada is generally a very expensive country to live in but that's largely because of private companies' price shenanigans -- hiding behind exchange rates, duties, higher taxes, la raison de semaine, etc. etc. -- and gas is one of the main examples of collusive pricing. They get away with it because they absolutely can.
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  #510  
Old Posted May 1, 2019, 4:39 AM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
Vancouver seems to be a very strange market for gas. I remember the year when the price that all of the gas stations posted on their big signs was 1 cent a litre more than they actually charged. That would be a crazy idea in almost any other market, but once it got started all of the stations quickly joined in...

I imagine that what's happening with the nighttime pricing is that one of the companies decided to incentivize late night purchases to justify the cost of keeping the station open 24 hours by selling at closer to cost, and once that happened all the other stations had to follow suit so that they didn't loose all of their sales.

What's incredible to me is that every time I drive down into the US beyond a tankful of the border I see all these vastly different gas prices. I find it hard to believe that one station can charge so much more than another and still stay in business. It seems that Americans have bought into the idea that one company's gas is worth a lot more than another's. Canadians seem to treat the stuff as much more like a commodity and they're not willing to pay much, if any, price premium for one brand over another.
On North Road there is an Esso and a Shell, the Shell is often 5 cents cheaper than the Esso and yet the Esso seems busier.
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  #511  
Old Posted May 1, 2019, 1:34 PM
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Day 1 of the Federal EV rebate today. Tesla Model 3 is now on the list, and I read that a Hyundai dealer in North Van has 40 EVs lined up for delivery today.

But hey, keep on complaining about gas prices...
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  #512  
Old Posted May 1, 2019, 4:27 PM
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Day 1 of the Federal EV rebate today. Tesla Model 3 is now on the list, and I read that a Hyundai dealer in North Van has 40 EVs lined up for delivery today.

But hey, keep on complaining about gas prices...
When I was at my VW dealer, he said they can't keep e-Golfs in stock and their allotment is small.
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  #513  
Old Posted May 1, 2019, 7:06 PM
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(Sorry if this post is leaning political...)

I see Alberta politics at work again... Their new premier has bought into and spreading the line that we only have ourselves to blame for high gas prices due to our desire to protect our coastlines and livelihoods. And yet I have the same concerns as retro_orange: that there will be an endless road of excuses towards justifying high gas prices whether or not any new oil pipeline actually goes ahead.

Personally, I would not mind an oil pipeline from Alberta to the BC coast (e.g. Prince Rupert or Vancouver), but there has to be some meaningful way of protecting or insuring our rivers and coasts against any spills that may occur. This is because a sizeable chunk of local jobs (tourism and fisheries) depend heavily on a clean environment and ecosystem. And yet, neither Alberta or the federal government seem to be very interested in offering adequate protection or insurance... it's as if they know it will cost a disproportionate fortune to us and would rather pretend to be blind to the consequences.

IIRC, for the Enbridge Gateway project, only ~$1.5 billion was guaranteed to be paid to BC over the 30-year lifetime of the pipeline; the rest was dependent on federal government transfers. I find the guaranteed amount to be super low and kind of offensive actually... The cost of the Exxon Valdez spill was double / triple that. The oil industry's historical track record in regards to oil spill response and paying out liabilities is simply atrocious across the board; thus it's almost a given that a spill will occur if any new or expanded pipeline is built.
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  #514  
Old Posted May 1, 2019, 7:08 PM
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When I was at my VW dealer, he said they can't keep e-Golfs in stock and their allotment is small.
Yes most of the major players have made these cars as compliance cars and to show they are competing with Tesla. Only Nissan seems to have been serious about EVs.

If there's a rush to get in on something before the October election and possible cancellation of the program, only Tesla can fill that demand.
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  #515  
Old Posted May 1, 2019, 7:09 PM
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IIRC, for the Enbridge Gateway project, only ~$1.5 billion was guaranteed to be paid to BC over the 30-year lifetime of the pipeline; the rest was dependent on federal government transfers. I find the guaranteed amount to be super low and kind of offensive actually... The cost of the Exxon Valdez spill was double / triple that. The oil industry's historical track record in regards to oil spill response and paying out liabilities is simply atrocious across the board; thus it's almost a given that a spill will occur if any new or expanded pipeline is built.
All true. We are asked to take all of the risk and get none of the benefit. And they are surprised we aren't really interested?
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  #516  
Old Posted May 1, 2019, 8:08 PM
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All true. We are asked to take all of the risk and get none of the benefit. And they are surprised we aren't really interested?
I forgot to add. The fact that Alberta's throwing a tantrum at us makes them look kind of weak IMO. I'm very glad BC has the resources and the infrastructure necessary to accommodate electric EVs for the general public as it will reduce our dependence on them and thus their influence on us.
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  #517  
Old Posted May 1, 2019, 9:53 PM
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Did Kenney even consult the oil companies? I am sure they won't be too impressed that they can't get their product to consumers.
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  #518  
Old Posted May 1, 2019, 10:40 PM
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Boosting the price of gas and or cutting the supply of oil will only help to force more people to buy more electric cars and therefore only reduce faster the demand for oil and gas in general.
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  #519  
Old Posted May 2, 2019, 5:52 AM
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And who do they think closed the other refineries we had? Those big oil companies were the ones who made the decision to shutter three Vancouver refineries so they could supply product out of Alberta. And now people believe those same big oil companies when they say will happily supply more to BC if the Transmountain expansion goes through? Their stated goal for TMX is to have access to alternative markets, aka Asia. That does no good for BC and will in fact drive up prices further.
The shuttering of the local refineries has everything to do with scale, and costs. In general, the local refineries have to compete with both Albertan and Washington State refineries, which are significantly larger operations than ours and can get economies of scale. Add increasing costs (land taxes, increasing environmental regulations, etc), that just killed most of the refineries that existed.

In fact, the only way the Parkland refinery is able to exist is that they heavily specialize in producing both high octane gasoline, and aviation kerosene.

The purpose of TMX is two fold; first, a specialized 500,000 barrel per day pipeline to be laid along the route of the existing pipeline dedicated to heavy crude. The existing pipeline is to be refurbished, and used for light crude for supplying Parkland, and to supply refined fuel as well.

By taking the heavy crude off the existing pipeline, it directly replaces the capacity used for the heavy crude for capacity to supply refined fuel, and there's a bonus as well; since heavy crude is more viscous, it doesn't flow as well, and decreases the overall capacity of the pipeline; think of it the difference between using a straw to suck on a thick milkshake verses regular 2% milk.

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Originally Posted by cabotp View Post
It almost seems to me that the solution would be for the provincial government to set a government mandated fixed price. That once a year would be reevaluated and set again for the next year. Kind of like how the pricing of our hydro and natural gas is set.

They could set it to, as an example, $1.50/litre. That would then be the price of gas for the next year. Then it would be increased or decreased the next year depending on the average price of oil, possible the inflation rate, and what other factors go into the price of gas.

That would mean if the price of oil happened to become cheaper during the year than the gas company would keep the extra profit. But if the price of oil went up during the year the gas company would get less of a profit.


On a side thought, I do wonder if the price of gas flucates as much in a commercial card lock.
The government mandated fixed price would have to be high enough that the marginal source of supply cost is met; that being the price being set at whatever the Puget Sound refineries will charge. Set it too low, and those refineries will refuse to sell to us; they are more than happy to sell their product to Oregon and California at market rate versus a low ball offer from BC.

Fixed prices really only work when supply actually exceeds demand; this is the case in the Maritimes, as the Maritimes have a surplus of supply of refined fuel. Take in case, the big Irving refinery in New Brunswick; it makes a lot of money selling refined fuel to the US East Coast.

And yes, commercial card lock prices also fluctuate; unless you have a set, negotiated price beforehand, and that's only with massive fleet users (hundreds or thousands of vehicles), and it sets out a minimum volume and a maximum volume to be supplied.
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  #520  
Old Posted May 2, 2019, 6:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Millennium2002 View Post
(Sorry if this post is leaning political...)

I see Alberta politics at work again... Their new premier has bought into and spreading the line that we only have ourselves to blame for high gas prices due to our desire to protect our coastlines and livelihoods. And yet I have the same concerns as retro_orange: that there will be an endless road of excuses towards justifying high gas prices whether or not any new oil pipeline actually goes ahead.

Personally, I would not mind an oil pipeline from Alberta to the BC coast (e.g. Prince Rupert or Vancouver), but there has to be some meaningful way of protecting or insuring our rivers and coasts against any spills that may occur. This is because a sizeable chunk of local jobs (tourism and fisheries) depend heavily on a clean environment and ecosystem. And yet, neither Alberta or the federal government seem to be very interested in offering adequate protection or insurance... it's as if they know it will cost a disproportionate fortune to us and would rather pretend to be blind to the consequences.

IIRC, for the Enbridge Gateway project, only ~$1.5 billion was guaranteed to be paid to BC over the 30-year lifetime of the pipeline; the rest was dependent on federal government transfers. I find the guaranteed amount to be super low and kind of offensive actually... The cost of the Exxon Valdez spill was double / triple that. The oil industry's historical track record in regards to oil spill response and paying out liabilities is simply atrocious across the board; thus it's almost a given that a spill will occur if any new or expanded pipeline is built.
Gasoline and Oil talk is a big part of politics in Canada. If anything this thread should be moved to the politics section.

It's just a matter of time and cost cutting by management that will eventually result in a major oil spill. Who here remembers the pipeline blowout in Burnaby from a few years ago? Not only is there the potential for it to be 12X the size but we were just lucky there was no ignition of the spilled oil which would have turned into a major disaster for Burnaby at the pipelines current rate of flow.

A great article of what happened in 2007, I bolded important parts and removed a bunch of storyline as it's long and rambling but a good read, linked below


Quote:
The day oil rained down on Burnaby


Ten years ago this week, an excavator ruptured a pipeline and sent crude oil shooting into the sky. In this report, we look back on that day and its aftermath

Grant Granger / Burnaby NowJuly 21, 2017
The oil was thick and heavy on Belcarra Drive following a pipeline puncture on nearby Inlet Drive on July 24, 2007.
Photograph By File photo

Hatch had no clue there was an oil pipeline running so close to the home she’d lived in since 1976. “When the firefighter came and told me I had to evacuate immediately and said there had been an oil spill, I had no idea what that meant,” says Hatch a decade later. She soon found out.

Hearing “oil pipeline” and “rupture” in the same sentence was a red flag alerting him to the dire seriousness of the situation.

She learned later it wasn’t a good idea to be driving a car during an oil spill. You weren’t even supposed to be turning on an engine for fear of sparking a fire.

“The odour of the oil was quite powerful, and it was very difficult for people to even get close to the scene,” he says.

Some of the delay in stopping the flow, the report concluded, was attributed to a mixup in Kinder Morgan’s monitoring centre.

“They closed a valve (at the dock) that should not have been closed, and they left a valve open that should have been closed which was at the tank farm terminal,” says Chu.

“That took a while for them to realize the errors and the mistakes, and when they applied the correct procedures a lot of the homes were already covered with oil and it had started flowing down the streets and down the storm drains into the inlet.”

Residents evacuated

An estimated 225 residents were affected directly or indirectly and, like Hatch, were advised to leave the area. A reception area was set up at Confederation Park and accommodation arranged, if needed.
According to Kinder Morgan, 101 evacuees belonging to 42 families spent the night of July 24, 2007 somewhere other than home.

Other neighbours, she says, couldn’t return for months because they happened to have their windows open when the oil started spewing, contaminating the interiors of their homes.

Shore birds affected

The TSB report said: “The crude oil seeped into the surrounding soil, storm drains, and sewer lines. The Barnet Highway was closed for several days. Moving through the storm drain system, the crude oil eventually reached the marine waters of Burrard Inlet where it began to spread further into the inlet through wind and tide action. Burrard Inlet’s marine environment and approximately 1,200 metres of shoreline were affected by the crude oil spill. A number of shore birds were contaminated after coming into contact with the oil.”
Red Zone

For several months, Hatch had arborists, landscapers, health researchers, insurance adjusters and bureaucrats tramping on her property. Her soil and grass was removed and replaced. Most of her plants were taken away or severely pruned.

Most of the work was carried out by contractors hired by Kinder Morgan. After getting new dirt, sod and plants, a worker showed up to remove and replace her gutters. She was distressed when he started throwing the old gutters, still containing oil, on her new, clean lawn and remediated dirt.

Hatch says it took a couple of years to make sure the remediation was safe.

Her insurance company, however, was a different matter when it came to the house.

“Some people in the neighbourhood, I know they had their insurance company walk away from them, and Kinder Morgan paid for them,” Then she discovered there was even another bureaucratic layer above that.

“All of this I ended up having to do myself. I was the one that had to deal with all the workers that came. You never knew when they’d come; they’d arrive just out of the blue,” she says. “I always had to be vigilant, I couldn’t just say A-OK, everything’s going to be fine. I had to do my own work in order to protect my property, my children, my dog.”

She estimates it took about 30 months to get the physical property back to its original state. “But your sense of safety, that was shattered.”

Published reports say Kinder Morgan spent $15 million in remediation costs and millions more for personal property damage. Kinder Morgan says eight residential properties were classified as being heavily oiled, 15 as moderately oiled and 21 as lightly oiled.

Hadden says the spill was relatively small compared to other North American incidents. But, as real estate agents say, it was all about location, location, location.
“Because of its location, it certainly had huge impacts,” he says. “Because the oil itself got into the storm drain system and then into the inlet, it then became a marine spill.”

Residents moving on

Although it’s a decade later, Hatch says many residents just want to put the rupture behind them.

“A lot of people don’t want to (talk about it),” she says. “There are a few people who actually just want to forget it, they don’t want to think about it anymore, they just want it to go away. Then there’s others, like me, who are still learning more and still try to help, if we can, to raise awareness and educate. For me, I never realized the bigger picture of global warming, and that’s all been part of what I’ve learned for myself.”

Just down the back lane from her place, Hatch has a neighbour who is moving to the West Kootenays and is representative of a different attitude. A lot of oil went down the lane’s storm drain before it got to the house he owned, so it only suffered a “salt and pepper” look to it.

“You can’t stress over those things. They’ll clean it up, they’ll fix it,” he shrugs, declining to give his full name.

Two other families contacted by the NOW who had their homes sprayed by the oil politely declined interviews. Some don’t live there anymore, but that’s not necessarily due to the spill.

Health questions

Since the rupture, Hatch has survived a breast cancer scare. During her treatment she was told there is a higher proportion of residents in the area with cancer. But, she admits, it’s difficult to determine how much of a role, if any, the rupture played in those findings. After all, Westridge has had a cluster of refineries nearby in the past and the neighbourhood is close to a heavily used commuter route.

As for the environment, a study by Stantec commissioned by Kinder Morgan in 2012 says a long-term monitoring program that began in 2008 shows “recovery endpoints” for water, intertidal sediment, crabs, subtitle sediment and fucus (brown algae) have been met. But “there are residual levels of contamination in mussels that have not yet met the agreed upon endpoint levels.”

Keeping watch

One reason Hatch has stuck around is to help protect her community.
When Kinder Morgan announced its expansion plans a few years ago, she didn’t hesitate in learning more and joined Burnaby Residents Opposed to Kinder Morgan Expansion.

In her mind, the issue has brought up the ghosts of 2007.

“It does, because that was human error. I know they are trying to make this as safe a facility as possible, but human error often plays into mistakes being made,” says Hatch. “Whether you agree with it or not, it isn’t a good thing to have in a densely populated neighbourhood.”

Chu and the City of Burnaby are strongly opposed to the proposal. He acknowledges the company has sophisticated systems that can detect the rate of oil flow anywhere along the pipeline that help to avert disaster.

“But despite state-of-the-art technology, human errors do occur. And human errors in record drawings and emergency procedures are something that you see. Not because of the failure of the system technology per se, but it was one error, that led to another, which resulted in significant damage to the environment and to the neighbourhood,” he says.

“It was a wake-up call. Not that we weren’t worried about pipeline safety before, but it even heightened the awareness of the pipeline in the urban environment.
https://www.burnabynow.com/news/the-day-oil-rained-down-on-burnaby-1.21287293
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