PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I'd say 90% of "public" projects are done by private companies. There are a few exceptions (such as street paving- the City actually does much of that in house) but generally speaking private contractors build, pave, renovate, etc. for public entities. Doing work in an occupied station that can't be closed is slow, inefficient and expensive. The alternative would be to shut the station down for 6 months to complete the project- don't think the public would be too thrilled with that option.

Stop bringing reasonable points to a thread where people just want to 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 about taxes!

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Valuation increase is not a tax increase. The rate hasn't changed in years and it can't change without legislation. Based on press coverage its obvious the OPA methodology needs significant work. Philly and other areas in this state are SUPPOSED to update valuations on a regular basis, but it doesn't happen. That is not a case of doing something illicit- it's actually following state mandates. Suburban jurisdictions are even more unbalanced in terms of tax burden (Inquirer has written about this) because the counties have avoided doing mass re-appraisals that would make things more fair. Philadelphia does not have to perform revenue neutral mass appraisals- which is technically a good thing for those advocating that property taxes cover an increased portion of the budget load.

The accuracy needs to improve, but the idea that people prefer that outdated real estate information be used for valuations so they don't have to pay more taxes in an area with appreciating values doesn't hold water in my book. An accurate system is one in which the valuations track closely with values which means appreciation in the real world will lead to higher tax bills.

This is only true if the changes in relative taxation are revenue neutral. Meaning, you increase my taxes because the value of my home went up relative to my neighbors. Or perhaps, somebody gets a decrease because they're paying to much.

That is how it used to work in Philadelphia. The entire basket (value of all properties) was looked at and the millage adjusted so that the overall tax received was revenue neutral. Of course, some properties would see increases in this system and others decreases.

Of late, they've simply been re-assessing without making the overall tax receipts revenue neutral. That means, some of us (me) end up paying more in absolute terms than everyone else. It's further aggravated by the fact that some properties are being targeted over others. If you are not going to make an honest effort to review everyone's valuation, then you shouldn't be able to do it at all.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Turning an aircraft carrier.

There are sooo many variables that come into play - and politics isn't designed to allow for this. Tax reform requires across-the-isle agreement and that, more today than ever before, won't happen.

I agree that the expense side of the ledger is a major problem. It costs so much more for the government to build/renovate/operate than the private sector. Unions? I think so.

How many of us have passed a SEPTA construction site and actually seen someone working? It's taken them over a year to tile 15th street station. I'm pretty sure that I could have had that done myself in about 3 months, working weekends and evenings. The lazy, entitled union worker of today is the reason why budgets blow up. Or at least a big reason.

Look, I'm not the biggest fan of unions (especially given the recent headlines regarding Johnny Doc), but they can hardly be blamed for the pace at which 15th st has been reconstructed. 15th St Station lies directly under a massive masonry building. The station infrastructure itself is bordering on being 60 years old. It takes a lot of time to strip everything down and reconstruct it especially considering that they couldn't close the station on weekdays.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I'd say 90% of "public" projects are done by private companies. There are a few exceptions (such as street paving- the City actually does much of that in house) but generally speaking private contractors build, pave, renovate, etc. for public entities. Doing work in an occupied station that can't be closed is slow, inefficient and expensive. The alternative would be to shut the station down for 6 months to complete the project- don't think the public would be too thrilled with that option.

I don't necessarily believe that. They build wall separations that separate the work zones from the public spaces. I could see how there might be a delay here and there but the majority of the work zones are separated. You can literally look in there and see the guys not working.

I've spent quite a bit of my career in construction and it's not subtle.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Redddog

I don't necessarily believe that. They build wall separations that separate the work zones from the public spaces. I could see how there might be a delay here and there but the majority of the work zones are separated. You can literally look in there and see the guys not working.

I've spent quite a bit of my career in construction and it's not subtle.

Maybe because the majority of the work is done while you're not there? I've taken the El at night and have seen them hard at work retiling everything. A lot of their work is just organization too; there are a lot of pipes and electrical/modem wires that needed to be realigned and reorganized.

I agree that this construction should have gone faster, but let's be fair, this is the single most heavily trafficked subway station in the entirety of Philadelphia. I would imagine that that would affect their work schedule in some way.

If you want to discuss unions being 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 unions in construction, we should discuss something more on-color for this forum: the original Comcast Center. They originally wanted to install flushless urinals in all of the male bathrooms, but when it was proposed to the plumber's union, they protested until Comcast agreed to their demands. The duct work was installed for the future possibility of installing regular urinals, but all of the bathrooms were nonetheless installed with waterless ones. All because they wouldn't be paid as much as they had wanted.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

reforming taxes simply means shifting burden from one group to another. No one who benefits from current tax structure is going to sit by idly and accept reforms that place more burden on them. The party that rules does not change budget realities and thus has little bearing on whether or not drastic tax "reforms' take place. State law and budget realities limit the options- hence the reason Nutter wanted to sell PGW to get a big infusion of cash to use towards lowering some taxes. Interestingly, I'm not aware of any suburban municipality that is actively lowering taxes. If people want to be somewhere it seems taxes aren't typically the primary factor they evaluate. I think people have been warning about a pending mass exodus ever since Philadelphia's population started to increase. As far as I know, the trend remains upward as we speak

You are vastly over simplifying with your comments as it's not as simple as "reforming taxes simply means shifting burden from one group to another." One, as we've seen in the Controllers audits this year, the city government has large amounts of budget uncounted for. Additionally, the city is operating with huge inefficiencies which has a profound impact on budget expenditures. In short, the city could streamline and reduce taxes just by fixing these areas as an offset. Additionally, there are many government offices that could be cut or reduced -- ie, do we really need an Office of LGBT Affairs? I question if we do (and I'm a gay man so not saying that with any bias, but rather questioning what value it brings), and it could save millions by cutting back some of these extras and aligning the tax code to encourage more population growth and small business growth instead (could even focus on LGBT small businesses with the money saved from that cut which I argue would have greater impact). And btw -- there are ways to get creative without cuts -- for instance, the wage tax is tiered so people living in the city pay more and people living outside the city pay less. They could increase taxes on people who commute into the city for work and decrease on residents to offer a tax break to residents. The point though is that the city needs reform in this space and it will take a combination of streamlining operations, some government cuts, and general tax code reforms to make the tax burdened lessened for residents -- and the city should do it to encourage a broader tax base in the city which will translate into longer term stability in revenue collection.

As for Philly's population growth, when did that start exactly? Hint -- Look at the year 10 year tax abatements were passed and overlay that against the population trends, and you'll see there is a direct and strong correlation between the two --the population stopped declining as a result of the abatements. I'm direct proof of that as I would not have bought a house in the city or remained in the city without lower taxes. Now if the federal tax reform, we are seeing slowing house sales, and lots of people living around me, including me, are starting to look for property outside the city to shift their residency to avoid taxes.

The reality is Philly's taxes must go down or a lot of the more affluent younger people are going to leave -- and that's the group that is funding most of the wage tax collection growth, increasing the home title transfer tax collection growth, and spurring much of the small business growth the city is seeing.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

You are vastly over simplifying with your comments as it's not as simple as "reforming taxes simply means shifting burden from one group to another." One, as we've seen in the Controllers audits this year, the city government has large amounts of budget uncounted for. Additionally, the city is operating with huge inefficiencies which has a profound impact on budget expenditures. In short, the city could streamline and reduce taxes just by fixing these areas as an offset. Additionally, there are many government offices that could be cut or reduced -- ie, do we really need an Office of LGBT Affairs? I question if we do (and I'm a gay man so not saying that with any bias, but rather questioning what value it brings), and it could save millions by cutting back some of these extras and aligning the tax code to encourage more population growth and small business growth instead (could even focus on LGBT small businesses with the money saved from that cut which I argue would have greater impact). And btw -- there are ways to get creative without cuts -- for instance, the wage tax is tiered so people living in the city pay more and people living outside the city pay less. They could increase taxes on people who commute into the city for work and decrease on residents to offer a tax break to residents. The point though is that the city needs reform in this space and it will take a combination of streamlining operations, some government cuts, and general tax code reforms to make the tax burdened lessened for residents -- and the city should do it to encourage a broader tax base in the city which will translate into longer term stability in revenue collection.

As for Philly's population growth, when did that start exactly? Hint -- Look at the year 10 year tax abatements were passed and overlay that against the population trends, and you'll see there is a direct and strong correlation between the two --the population stopped declining as a result of the abatements. I'm direct proof of that as I would not have bought a house in the city or remained in the city without lower taxes. Now if the federal tax reform, we are seeing slowing house sales, and lots of people living around me, including me, are starting to look for property outside the city to shift their residency to avoid taxes.

The reality is Philly's taxes must go down or a lot of the more affluent younger people are going to leave -- and that's the group that is funding most of the wage tax collection growth, increasing the home title transfer tax collection growth, and spurring much of the small business growth the city is seeing.

FWIW, the "Office" of LGBT Affairs is literally just one person (who shares a secretary/support staff with the Mayor's Office). This is not super important but I did want to point it out lol.

[City Wide]

Taxes, few people if any are satisfied with the way they are collected and the basis for this or that tax, but just about everybody accepts that gov't needs some tax. Beyond that, its like herding cats. How about if the City wasn't allowed to increase its budget by more then 2% per year over the rate of inflation, and if revenue went over budget the surplus would automatically go into a rainy day fund or pay down debt or both. Just think if the citizens had to directly approve all tax increases, what a thought.

Unfortunately in our fair City there's no direct way, other then bribery, for the citizens to change the direction of gov't. Elections? Ha! Blackwell is terrible, but her first serious opponent in about 50 years might be a couple of points better, if at all.

For those of you who for some reason think reasonable republicans are the answer all I say to you is look at Harrisburg and the Parking Authority here in town. The desire should be on the 'reasonable' side, not the party name. Hell, I'd vote for the know nothing party if I thought they could run the City better. (google it)

[allovertown]

Let's see, the results for 500th Philadelphia Taxes Debate are in. Everyone still believes exactly what they believed going into the debate, exactly zero minds were changed, and nothing was accomplished.

Great job everyone. See you next week, when the same stupid topic will derail the thread again.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

You are vastly over simplifying with your comments as it's not as simple as "reforming taxes simply means shifting burden from one group to another." One, as we've seen in the Controllers audits this year, the city government has large amounts of budget uncounted for. Additionally, the city is operating with huge inefficiencies which has a profound impact on budget expenditures. In short, the city could streamline and reduce taxes just by fixing these areas as an offset. Additionally, there are many government offices that could be cut or reduced -- ie, do we really need an Office of LGBT Affairs? I question if we do (and I'm a gay man so not saying that with any bias, but rather questioning what value it brings), and it could save millions by cutting back some of these extras and aligning the tax code to encourage more population growth and small business growth instead (could even focus on LGBT small businesses with the money saved from that cut which I argue would have greater impact). And btw -- there are ways to get creative without cuts -- for instance, the wage tax is tiered so people living in the city pay more and people living outside the city pay less. They could increase taxes on people who commute into the city for work and decrease on residents to offer a tax break to residents. The point though is that the city needs reform in this space and it will take a combination of streamlining operations, some government cuts, and general tax code reforms to make the tax burdened lessened for residents -- and the city should do it to encourage a broader tax base in the city which will translate into longer term stability in revenue collection.

As for Philly's population growth, when did that start exactly? Hint -- Look at the year 10 year tax abatements were passed and overlay that against the population trends, and you'll see there is a direct and strong correlation between the two --the population stopped declining as a result of the abatements. I'm direct proof of that as I would not have bought a house in the city or remained in the city without lower taxes. Now if the federal tax reform, we are seeing slowing house sales, and lots of people living around me, including me, are starting to look for property outside the city to shift their residency to avoid taxes.

The reality is Philly's taxes must go down or a lot of the more affluent younger people are going to leave -- and that's the group that is funding most of the wage tax collection growth, increasing the home title transfer tax collection growth, and spurring much of the small business growth the city is seeing.

This whole post is utter nonsense.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Stop bringing reasonable points to a thread where people just want to 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 about taxes!

sorry. It is indeed much easier to hold out hope that hundreds of millions could be axed from the budget if only the right set of eyes looked at things. Just cut back- but not on the stuff people care about.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

This is only true if the changes in relative taxation are revenue neutral. Meaning, you increase my taxes because the value of my home went up relative to my neighbors. Or perhaps, somebody gets a decrease because they're paying to much.

That is how it used to work in Philadelphia. The entire basket (value of all properties) was looked at and the millage adjusted so that the overall tax received was revenue neutral. Of course, some properties would see increases in this system and others decreases.

Of late, they've simply been re-assessing without making the overall tax receipts revenue neutral. That means, some of us (me) end up paying more in absolute terms than everyone else. It's further aggravated by the fact that some properties are being targeted over others. If you are not going to make an honest effort to review everyone's valuation, then you shouldn't be able to do it at all.

There is NOTHING positive about the old system. The values had zero relation to actual home values and the city wasn't really doing any assessments. They would just increase the millage rate every 5 or so years when the budget got tight. The city never had to make its assessment updates revenue neutral- other counties do however.

BTW, everyone who sees a valuation increase believes they have been "targeted". Folks are saying the same thing all over the city if they don't like the assessment increase. City council has put a lot of heat on OPA and Kenney over valuation methodology and the long delayed CAMA system. They are also looking for a new head of OPA because of how all of this has been handled.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Redddog

I don't necessarily believe that. They build wall separations that separate the work zones from the public spaces. I could see how there might be a delay here and there but the majority of the work zones are separated. You can literally look in there and see the guys not working.

I've spent quite a bit of my career in construction and it's not subtle.

First of all some work on a project like that can only be done when train service is shut down. Because of the length of a train there is only a specific length of platform that can be closed off during service hours. The less space you have to deal with the less efficient contractors are on a project. Allowing public access around your project and maintaining train service causes logistical inefficiencies. They pave highways in the middle of the night- this is not the cheapest or most efficient way to do so, but it's the only way to do it and maintain all lanes during the day. I don't know who wasn't working or for how long, but there are host of reasons someone may not be doing something on a project- lunch, break-time, waiting for delivery of materials, waiting for utility shut-off etc. Most of the public projects that people complain about are executed by private contractors, not government employees.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by iamrobk

FWIW, the "Office" of LGBT Affairs is literally just one person (who shares a secretary/support staff with the Mayor's Office). This is not super important but I did want to point it out lol.

Point taken. I was just giving an example of one office where I know we spend money but there might not be a ton of value added. There used to be more staff than that, but not sure what the total budget is. My main point is I'm quite certain there are many offices and services that Philly government has that could be streamlined, cut, or reallocated.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

My main point is I'm quite certain there are many offices and services that Philly government has that could be streamlined, cut, or reallocated.

No there's not.

(Sorry, just trying to contribute to the debate.)

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Londonee

This whole post is utter nonsense.

Which part? The part about the Controllers office audit discovering $33m in missing funds last year with findings in support of how inefficient and badly run the city's budget is? https://www.philly.com/philly/news/polit...3-million-rebecca-rhynhart-20180612.html

Or that there are extra offices within the city's government that are extra that could be cut? There's a long list of government offices that Philly has that could be structured and streamlined: https://www.phila.gov/departments/

Offices that could be combined and/or restructured together to get rid of senior overhead:

A. Diversity & Inclusion
1. Office of LGBT
2. Office of Engagement of Women
3. Office of Black Male Engagement
4. Mayor’s Office for People with Disabilities
5. Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations
6. Office of Chief Diversity Officer
7. Philadelphia Veterans Advisory Commission

B. Arts & Culture
1. Office of Mural Arts
2. Office of Arts Commission
3. Office of Arts, Culture and the Creative Economy (OACCE)

C. Public Safety and Reintegration
1. Mayor’s Office of Reintegration Services (RISE)
2. Philadelphia Department of Prisons
3. Philadelphia District Attorney’s Office (DAO)
4. Office of Criminal Justice (OCJ)
5. Office of the Sheriff
6. Town Watch Integrated Services
7. Police Advisory Commission
8. Philadelphia Police Department

D. Civic Engagement
1. Office of Youth Engagement (OYE)
2. Mayor’s Office of Public Engagement
3. Office of Civic Engagement and Volunteer Service.

E. Housing & Development
1. Philadelphia Housing Authority
2. Philadelphia Housing Development Corporation
3. Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority
4. Delaware River Waterfront Corporation
5. Community Life Improvement Program (CLIP)
6. CityGeo (GIS)
7. City Planning Commission
8. Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation
9. Philadelphia Land Bank

F. Technology & Innovation
1. Office of Innovation and Technology (OIT)
2. Office of Innovation Management
3. Office of Open Data and Digital Transformation (ODDT)
4. Office of the Chief Administrative Officer

G. Finance & Commerce
1. Office of the Director of Finance
2. Department of Revenue
3. City Treasurer’s Office
4. Board of Revision of Taxes (BRT)
5. Department of Commerce (DOC)
6. Office of Performance Management
7. Office of the City Controller
8. Tax Review Board (TRB)

H. Health & Medical
1. Board of Health
2. Department of Behavioral Health and Intellectual disAbility Services (DBHIDS)
3. Department of Public Health
4. Mayor’s Commission on Aging

I. Transportation
1. Office of Transportation, Infrastructure and Sustainability (oTIS)
2. Philadelphia Parking Authority
3. Office of Fleet Management (OFM)
4. SEPTA

J. Ethics & Risk Management
1. Office of the Chief Integrity Officer (CIO)
2. Office of the Inspector General (PhillyOIG)
3. Office of Risk Management
4. City of Philadelphia Board of Ethics


Again, I'm only highlighting there is substantial overlap between many of these Offices, Departments, Boards, Commissions, etc. The city would benefit from synergy of consolidating and/or restructuring many of these to reduce Administrative overhead -- and thus, spend more of the tax revenue on programs helping citizens rather than funding bloated inefficiencies. Additionally, some of the cost savings or restructuring the government could be used to cut taxes too or to reallocate for grant programs to help each community, better fund education, street cleaning, or any amount of ways to reinvest in the people of the city. And to note -- from the list above, I didn't even list out all the Offices and Departments and you can clearly see the buckets of overlap. Keep in mind, the city has 30k employees -- if streamlining resulted in 5k jobs adjustment, it could save taxpayers between $300m to $700m each year that can go towards other uses (grants, loans, redevelopment, tax cuts, etc).

As for my points on population growth, not sure where you can disagree with that either. Philly's population was in decline until the tax abatements were passed. That's true as well.

Feel free to disagree -- but just stating the post is "utter nonsense" and not supplying any actual feedback for discussion is just trolling.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by PHL10

No there's not.

(Sorry, just trying to contribute to the debate.)

You didn't contribute anything.

Feel free to read my post above. I laid them all out. There's a ton of overlap between many of the different Offices. No reason many of them can't be combined and restructured to streamline the government, make it more efficient, and save money for tax cuts or to reinvest back into the community instead into overhead of people running each different office.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

There is NOTHING positive about the old system. The values had zero relation to actual home values and the city wasn't really doing any assessments. They would just increase the millage rate every 5 or so years when the budget got tight. The city never had to make its assessment updates revenue neutral- other counties do however.

BTW, everyone who sees a valuation increase believes they have been "targeted". Folks are saying the same thing all over the city if they don't like the assessment increase. City council has put a lot of heat on OPA and Kenney over valuation methodology and the long delayed CAMA system. They are also looking for a new head of OPA because of how all of this has been handled.

My taxes are almost $4,000 on a 755 square foot trinity in Northern Liberties. 5 years ago, the tax bill was $1200. There are 1,600 square foot homes littered throughout Northern Liberties with lower taxes than mine. The two houses attached to mine are identical in layout and pay more than $1,000 less than I do.

So yeah. The re-assessments are uneven, unfair, and targeted.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

My taxes are almost $4,000 on a 755 square foot trinity in Northern Liberties. 5 years ago, the tax bill was $1200. There are 1,600 square foot homes littered throughout Northern Liberties with lower taxes than mine. The two houses attached to mine are identical in layout and pay more than $1,000 less than I do.

So yeah. The re-assessments are uneven, unfair, and targeted.

Yea -- the adjustments were bogus. My land value went up drastically, while the guy who owns the vacant property next to mine didn't get any increase...in fact, he owns 10 properties in the area and none were increased on him despite that he has renovated them (poorly...but still renovated). The entire thing was a shame to target people who had abatements. That kind of stuff is what is going to eventually encourage people to leave. I'm already seeing people leaving the area and heading out of the city.

[Tatts]

"They could increase taxes on people who commute into the city for work and decrease on residents to offer a tax break to residents."
No, they cannot. They are expressly forbidden from doing that by state law. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

"Which part? The part about the Controllers office audit discovering $33m in missing funds last year."
Okay, you clearly have a mad-on about Philly government. And you deliberately led with the old story about the "missing" money that wasn't missing at all--and everybody knows it. There have been follow-ups in the news many times since then. The bulk of that money was deposited automatically on a monthly basis in the wrong city account. That one correction solved the bulk of the issue. Subsequent news has shown that everything is working its way out. That happens all the time in any big business. As I remember, the finance departments had a personnel shortage during that time. And the city has is old software and systems. But fixing that takes money--lots of it, paid to major software corporations, which you don't want them to spend.

And your list of departments that need to be combined is laughable. The Parking Authority? That is a STATE agency, run by the Republicans in Harrisburg as a patronage mill. Everybody knows that. It's in the papers all the time.

The Board of Health is already part of the Department of Public Health, and DBHIDS is about mental and behavioral health while the Department of Public Health is about diseases and disease control--different missions. You just don't know what you're talking about; you've only looked at the names.