Gas Prices

[BCPhil]

It's no coincidence that gas prices have gone up across the country to coincide with the new federal carbon tax (and increase here) right before an election.

The petroleum companies just like to drive the point home whenever it happens. They like to make "gas prices" an issue in debates, so that politicians have to start making promises to lower the price at the pumps to win over frustrated voters.

And this isn't about the gas tax either. A tax is just passed on to customers (or charged directly to customers). No, the petroleum companies want to make their industry critical to winning votes so they can get easier access to resources and transportation and lower fees/levies from government and pollute without repercussion.

The federal Liberals are marred in scandal, what better time to strike down a government that has policies that constrict growth (and thus profits) of the oil industry?

[Trainguy]

Some group in the gasoline chain is cashing in. The end product didn't all of a sudden cost more to produce. The inflated prices are lining someone's pockets and we are at their mercy because we can't just stop filling up. Gasoline is something that should be regulated so we pay a fair price but that is not how the world works. All the political BS and hot air won't change anything. Adding more refining capacity will but they like high gas prices.

[nds88]

Originally Posted by bluefox

Except, as we have already discussed earlier, fuel taxes are by and large the end result of a population that wants good public transit but throws a fit every time anyone wants to increase income, property or other taxes to pay for it.

So where does Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Moscow, Paris, London, Seoul get their transit money from? When I was in Moscow and Beijing, their transit was like under $1 to ride. They have phenomenal subways and they are both "developing" countries. Yes, Russia can get their S#$% together to get a subway built and we can't. And this was not done years ago, they are still building out new lines today. Yes, these cities have way more people, but they also have higher expenses too. Russia is a low tax country (my friend lived there for 15 years and is still considered a resident), and he pays way less taxes as a percentage of income. Hong Kong also does not tax, or taxes very low, income.

Tokyo can build massive multiple city block sized underground stops with literally hundreds of exits so pedestrians can get to specific buildings without holding up traffic by crossing the street. We can barely get two exits out of the Canada Line.

Shanghai was a swamp land in the 90s. Their first line opened in 93 and in less than 25 years they have over 17 lines. It looks like in the last 10-12 years was when the bulk of the lines were added.

Why can we not do stuff under budget and ahead of schedule?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by nds88

So where does Tokyo, Beijing, Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Moscow, Paris, London, Seoul get their transit money from? When I was in Moscow and Beijing, their transit was like under $1 to ride. They have phenomenal subways and they are both "developing" countries. Yes, Russia can get their S#$% together to get a subway built and we can't. And this was not done years ago, they are still building out new lines today. Yes, these cities have way more people, but they also have higher expenses too. Russia is a low tax country (my friend lived there for 15 years and is still considered a resident), and he pays way less taxes as a percentage of income. Hong Kong also does not tax, or taxes very low, income.

Tokyo can build massive multiple city block sized underground stops with literally hundreds of exits so pedestrians can get to specific buildings without holding up traffic by crossing the street. We can barely get two exits out of the Canada Line.

Shanghai was a swamp land in the 90s. Their first line opened in 93 and in less than 25 years they have over 17 lines. It looks like in the last 10-12 years was when the bulk of the lines were added.

Why can we not do stuff under budget and ahead of schedule?

We actually do build SkyTrain under budget and ahead of schedule... when we finally have enough funding for a budget and schedule. The problem is that Western Canada is the new kid on the block when it comes to building transit.

Moscow and Paris and London got started all the way back when the Queen's dad and grandad were around. The People's Republic of China is able to pay their construction workers $600 a month without any repercussion. Greater Tokyo has Canada's entire population packed into an area the size of Connecticut, and Seoul nearly has the same. If this were an Avengers movie, Vancouver would be Hawkeye.

Now, what's interesting about Hong Kong is that the MTA Corporation is able to directly redevelop properties that it buys and sells - that accounts for a lot of its non-farebox profit. We might want to convince Victoria to grant TransLink the same authority.

[mcminsen]

Marine Drive, North Vancouver, April 7 '19, my pic

Originally Posted by mcminsen

Marine Drive, North Vancouver, March 10 '19, my pic

[SpongeG]

it was 79.9 in Fox Creek Alberta today. They apparently sold out within a couple of hours.

Up north in high level it is 138.9 or 140.9, a few hours south it was 119.9 - 121.9

[nds88]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

We actually do build SkyTrain under budget and ahead of schedule... when we finally have enough funding for a budget and schedule.

What would be better phrasing is what the heck takes so long for us to get started and why does it cost so much relative to other major cities? UBC line should have been built back 10 years ago when I was going to campus. Its still not going to be done for another 5+ years. It would have cost half as much. So it might finish under the actual budget, but while waiting for things to start, the realized cost is double if they had just started earlier. In the mean time, Shanghai was able to build half their system in that time frame. Moscow is still building, my friend's home there was recently connected to a new line. And that line is still extending out.

The Vancouver Sun said Broadway subway will cost $500+m per km, yet the Evergreen line was $130m per km. Granted one is underground, but really, there must be some really greasy stuff going on behind the scenes.

And its not just skytrain, why don't we have Uber? What takes so long? Just copy what other major North American cities are doing. Same with building approvals. It takes almost 2 years to rubber stamp a low rise building, but they can build entire cities in Asia in 2 years. I'm not saying we do things like Asia, but there is a problem with bureaucracy and excessive regulation. We can't always be last to get started at things and have prices be the highest. The only thing we are fastest at is putting new taxes on things. We are definitely hawkeye when he's out of arrows.

I will give Vancouver props for the 2010 olympics. Other cities spent several times more than our "measly" 7 billion and all our facilities are still used today.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Some group in the gasoline chain is cashing in. The end product didn't all of a sudden cost more to produce. The inflated prices are lining someone's pockets and we are at their mercy because we can't just stop filling up. Gasoline is something that should be regulated so we pay a fair price but that is not how the world works. All the political BS and hot air won't change anything. Adding more refining capacity will but they like high gas prices.

Checking the average refining margin being reported, it is about $5.25 USD per barrel right now per this source:

https://www.neste.com/corporate-info/investors/market-data/refining-margins-0

The oil product margin for gas is about $11.65 USD per barrel at the same source:

https://www.neste.com/corporate-info/investors/market-data/oil-product-margins-0

The problem with BC is that we are very much supply constrained because of a lack of refining capacity on the Pacific Northwest, and no effective connections to other regions where there is a refining capacity surplus, such as in Alberta or to the US Gulf Coast.

As such, BC is forced to engage in a bidding war with Washington, Oregon, and California for whatever refined product there is available in the region. Add in a weak Canadian loonie, and all of the taxes and fees, that drives up the cost at the pump for you.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by nds88

What would be better phrasing is what the heck takes so long for us to get started and why does it cost so much relative to other major cities? UBC line should have been built back 10 years ago when I was going to campus. Its still not going to be done for another 5+ years. It would have cost half as much. So it might finish under the actual budget, but while waiting for things to start, the realized cost is double if they had just started earlier. In the mean time, Shanghai was able to build half their system in that time frame. Moscow is still building, my friend's home there was recently connected to a new line. And that line is still extending out.

The Vancouver Sun said Broadway subway will cost $500+m per km, yet the Evergreen line was $130m per km. Granted one is underground, but really, there must be some really greasy stuff going on behind the scenes.

And its not just skytrain, why don't we have Uber? What takes so long? Just copy what other major North American cities are doing. Same with building approvals. It takes almost 2 years to rubber stamp a low rise building, but they can build entire cities in Asia in 2 years. I'm not saying we do things like Asia, but there is a problem with bureaucracy and excessive regulation. We can't always be last to get started at things and have prices be the highest. The only thing we are fastest at is putting new taxes on things. We are definitely hawkeye when he's out of arrows.

Already answered most of this, but I'll try again.

The Moscow Metro opened in 1937. Soviet public works projects aside, that's a five-decade headstart over us. Vancouver wasn't even a global city until 20-30 years ago.

Shanghai is part of the People's Republic. China's spent a lot of their massive GDP on public works projects, and their labour and property laws are a joke, so construction is cheap. And since supply is starting to outpace demand, even that rapid pace isn't going to last... especially since much of it seems to be founded on corruption and lack of planning.

Bottom line, public transit is an exponential curve. More funding = more lines = more ridership = more revenue/political pull = more funding, but the ball needs to have been rolling long enough. We're still at the bottom half of that curve. SkyTrain only opened thirty years ago. Our population is 2.6 million, our minimum wage is $12 and climbing, our land value rivals Hong Kong's, and TransLink's already as efficient as it can get. So either we raise taxes, or lower our standards - I prefer the former.

Marshal said it best. I'm happy for your friend in Russia, but you might as well be demanding that Prince George have a metro by now.


---

Re: Broadway, it's expensive because the land it runs under is expensive. The actual cost is about two billion for the Arbutus stretch (TransLink factors in cost creep just in case), and most of that is property acquisition.
Why couldn't it get built earlier when land was cheaper? Politics. Campbell's Liberals first killed the Millennium Line expansion back in 2001, then prioritized the Canada and Evergreen from 2004-2012. Then Christy's Liberals decided to cockblock Vancouver in 2014 with the referendum, just because we voted her out of her own riding.

All of this stuff is readily available in the Broadway Extension thread, or the last ten years' worth of news and blogs. Similar drama plays out in Toronto and the States - among others - where ideologues and cheapskates and PR stunts take precedence over an effective, integrated system. Just look at the Scarborough or Sheppard fusterclucks.

Lack of rideshare is again, politics. The NDP needs South Vancouver and Surrey to remain the ruling party, and that means keeping the taxi drivers happy.
Besides, rideshares in the rest of North America are stealing passengers from transit. If that ever happened here, you can bet the conservatives and NIMBYs would use that as an excuse to slash funding, meaning less service -> lower ridership -> even less funding. What we really need is removal of the stupid boundary rules and a way to weed out the douchey drivers.

[MIPS]

Why is my gas suddenly $1.46/L? What did you clowns do to my precious BC Interior gas supply?

[Trainguy]

Drove by the Shell on 88th... 156.9..

A few blocks later the Petro Can on 96th.. 140.99 add in my 5 cent discount.. 1.359.

Some don't care what they pay... well I do!

[mcminsen]

West 41 Ave. and Dunbar Street, Vancouver, April 11 '19, my pic

[WarrenC12]

149.9 all down Kingsway last night. Cars lined up everywhere. I LOL'd.

[whatnext]

I saw a Chevron station with one of the old letterboard signs yesterday and a guy in a van with a cherrypicker going up to change the numbers. That must be a pain in the ass the way prices bounce around!

[Trainguy]

The Petro can 96th and KG was 1.69 this morning. On the way home it was 1.399. That's an insane price swing. Nice line ups to fill up though.

[logicbomb]

UCP wins in Alberta. Regardless of whatever they do... Gas prices are going to $2. If AB shuts the taps off...god help us all.

[SpongeG]

Gas pains on road to green gains in B.C.

Special report | B.C., California pay the highest gas prices on continent in part because they have chosen to be climate change leaders

By Nelson Bennett | April 16, 2019

Last week, Vancouver once again earned the dubious distinction of breaking a North American record for high gasoline prices, when they hit $1.65 per litre here.

Bowen Island’s gas prices surpassed even that, hitting $1.73.

South of the border, California earned a similar distinction. It has the highest gasoline prices in the U.S.

It is no coincidence that both regions also share the distinction of being leaders in climate change policies, including carbon pricing and low-carbon fuel standards, both of which contribute to higher gas prices.

...

https://biv.com/article/2019/04/gas-pains-road-green-gains-bc

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

UCP wins in Alberta. Regardless of whatever they do... Gas prices are going to $2. If AB shuts the taps off...god help us all.

So buy a Tesla.

[Galaxy]

Buying a Tesla or any all-electric vehicle will be the best for all of us in BC.

[retro_orange]

It's going to be interesting when they realize that Kenney's rhetoric isn't gonna be the magic bullet to make Alberta boom again. What is concerning is that everyone else (BC included) will be blamed for continuing stagnation and Kenney will be empowered to stoke more right wing extremism. Alot of new all electric vehicle models coming up, it's not the 90's or 2000's when Alberta last boomed and all we had to choose from was a 2 seat Honda Insight or first Prius. Alberta needs to diversify, maybe Kenney should encourage vehicle comapnies to build electric vehicle factories that will actually maintain a steady workforce not subject to boom and bust cycles.