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  #4681  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 12:51 AM
Multi-modal Multi-modal is offline
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
I'm curious what Route 15 is, as well. If they're creating a new route instead of just adding extra peak period trips on the 12 that extend to Gatineau, it must mean it's doing something different from the 12. Perhaps it takes a more direct route between Vanier and Blair station (like going down Blair or Bathgate) instead of going on the long semi-circle through the Beacon Hill area.
Yes, the new service map shows the 15 goes down den haag and bathgate to Blair. It is not an all day route so likely replaces the 12's peak trips to/from la cite plus adds a few additional trips.

The map also shows the 25 (Orleans half of the old 94) and peak trips of the 39 (Orleans half of the old 95) using bathgate from Blair and ending at la cite. THat is going to be a massive increase in service to bathgate and la cite.
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  #4682  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 1:08 AM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Route 96 (formerly 116) used to run to Baseline (and correct me if I am wrong, but also further extensions in peak periods). They cut the route to meet their optimization budget back in 2011. This reduced ridership and allowed a cut in frequency particularly in off peak hours. It has been mentioned many times as a short sighted change. I am all for reinstating the original routing.
100% this. The 96 should be extended to Baseline, and it should be every 30 minutes during the day rather than hourly.

The south Merivale industrial areas are so close to Barrhaven, but are almost impossible to get to from Barrhaven because the route that serves that area doesn't connect to the Transitway trunk from Barrhaven. Cutting the service back to Merivale in 2011 was (and continues to be) a dumb idea.
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  #4683  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 1:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Multi-modal View Post
Yes, the new service map shows the 15 goes down den haag and bathgate to Blair. It is not an all day route so likely replaces the 12's peak trips to/from la cite plus adds a few additional trips.

The map also shows the 25 (Orleans half of the old 94) and peak trips of the 39 (Orleans half of the old 95) using bathgate from Blair and ending at la cite. THat is going to be a massive increase in service to bathgate and la cite.
The 12's peak period trips are from downtown to La Cite (and back in PM), but I think most of the trips on the 15 will be towards downtown & Gatineau in the AM, and the reverse in the PM. The whole point is to supplement the 12 in the peak direction to deal with capacity issues.
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  #4684  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 1:25 AM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
The 12's peak period trips are from downtown to La Cite (and back in PM), but I think most of the trips on the 15 will be towards downtown & Gatineau in the AM, and the reverse in the PM. The whole point is to supplement the 12 in the peak direction to deal with capacity issues.
You are probably right, but in addition to relieving the #12s capacity issues, I bet the 15 will absorb those peak trips to la cite in the reverse direction.
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  #4685  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 2:31 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Battery electric buses are really taking off.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-23/electric-buses-are-hurting-the-oil-industry

OC Transpo needs to start trialling some and developing a strategy to switch.

I wish the feds would actually jump on this. It's a great way to actually cut emissions, reduce local smog and improve the fiscal capacity of transit authorities, since these buses would save 3000-4000L of fuel per year, and incur lower maintenance costs. Cities need to push the Feds to fund a long term replacement program. $1-2B a year over 10-15 years would transform bus transit in Canada.
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  #4686  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 4:23 PM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Battery electric buses are really taking off.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-23/electric-buses-are-hurting-the-oil-industry

OC Transpo needs to start trialling some and developing a strategy to switch.

I wish the feds would actually jump on this. It's a great way to actually cut emissions, reduce local smog and improve the fiscal capacity of transit authorities, since these buses would save 3000-4000L of fuel per year, and incur lower maintenance costs. Cities need to push the Feds to fund a long term replacement program. $1-2B a year over 10-15 years would transform bus transit in Canada.
IDK. We have pretty extreme weather, and both heating and A/C demands a lot of power.
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  #4687  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 11:40 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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IDK. We have pretty extreme weather, and both heating and A/C demands a lot of power.
Which is why they should at least start serious trials. Not just a token handful of buses.
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  #4688  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 5:17 PM
CityTech CityTech is offline
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Other Canadian cities are doing electric bus trials. Toronto is going pretty hard on them, as is St. Albert, AB.
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  #4689  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 11:42 AM
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More than 6,000 OC Transpo bus trips cancelled in nearly one-month period

Trevor Oattes, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: April 15, 2019


Ask any regular user of OC Transpo about missing a bus because of a cancelled trip and you’re almost guaranteed to hear a story.

Maybe someone will tell you about being stranded on a freezing cold day, waiting for a scheduled bus that never showed. Maybe someone will tell you about how they were late for work, or missed a class, because their bus never came.

But how often are OC Transpo rides actually cancelled? The Citizen endeavoured to find out, asking the transit agency for trip cancellation data.

It turns out there’s a reason people often have a story to tell.

Over a 29-day period in February and March, there were 6,284 cancelled bus trips in Ottawa, according to the provided data.

During that nearly one-month period, the fewest bus cancellations on a given day was 20 and the most was 883.

However, the data also show that about 97 per cent of scheduled trips, on average, are completed each day. The lion’s share of cancellations occur on weekdays, with a daily average of 283 cancellations. There are far fewer cancellations on weekends, when service is reduced, with a daily average of 41 cancellations.

According to the data, there are an average of 7,696 scheduled rides per day, and an average of 7,479 rides completed.

But that’s small comfort to riders stuck waiting for a no-show bus, something OC Transpo recognizes.

“Customers expect and deserve to get from point A to point B safely and reliably,” says Troy Charter, the city’s director of transit operations. “It’s our job to provide that service. We do our best to try and educate with regards to why these challenges are happening. As a customer, I understand the frustrations that they may experience when they’re not seeing the reliability that they’re used to.”

There are processes and resources in place to help mitigate the conditions that cause buses to be cancelled, Charter says. He says OC Transpo has operators and buses that are strategically placed throughout the city, which can be used to respond to unforeseen circumstances. The hope is that these measures will reduce the number of cancellations that occur.

And some cancellations are simply unavoidable. The data provided by OC Transpo was for 29 days during the winter, when adverse weather can lead to spikes in trip cancellations. For example, the day that had 883 cancellations was on Feb. 13, when Ottawa was pounded by a massive snowstorm.

“We strive to deliver each and every trip. We have staff that work until the very end to try and deliver every trip that we advertise,” says Charter. “When we can’t meet those, we try our best to inform customers through our various means that there are impacts. But on those really challenging days, we know that it’s difficult to get all of that information out in a timely manner.”

One place that’s evident is on the OC Transpo Live Twitter account. The account is supposed to track bus cancellations throughout the city, but a data review by the Citizen reveals it only broadcasts a fraction of the cancellations that actually occur.

The Citizen compiled the cancellation data from the Twitter account for the same time period as the data provided by OC Transpo.

A comparison shows hundreds of cancelled trips weren’t publicly shared.

On Feb. 20, for example, there were only 30 cancellations recorded by the account, whereas the OC Transpo data show there were 231 cancellations that day.

In an email, Pat Scrimgeour, the city’s director of transit systems and planning, says flaws with the cancellation reporting by the account are the result of which work staff decide to prioritize.

“During peak periods, and especially during challenging service days, staff in transit information and customer service have prioritized responsibilities,” said Scrimgeour. “On days when there are a high number of trip cancellations, some trips may not be posted to Twitter due to the prioritization of work. Our focus is on assisting customers by providing the highest importance updates, such as elevator outages, detours or significant delays to service due to inclement weather, traffic or other issues.”

The Citizen spent an afternoon last week talking to riders about cancellations near the Transitway’s Baseline station.

“I take the No. 168, which is one of the most popular buses in Kanata,” says Zack Burns, a student at Algonquin College. “When a bus like that gets cancelled with no real notice, you’re kind of screwed, especially if you’re going to work. I had one bus cancel and instead of being on time I was an hour late.

“I got in a bit of trouble for missing the start of my shift, but when I told them it was just the buses, they kind of understood. Even my employers know that the buses can suck.”

T.J. Oliver, a former employee at the Ottawa International Airport, says he’s had many encounters with cancelled buses.

“There’s only one bus that goes out to the airport, the No. 97,” says Oliver. “I’ve had it drive by me three times during a snowstorm before, and that left me stranded for almost two hours. I was just in Barrhaven and I saw four No. 170s show up at once. Why are there four No. 170s and no No. 95s when everyone at that stop is waiting for a No. 95?”

Despite unpleasant moments, Oliver says he’s also had a few welcomed experiences.

“For all the negatives I’ve had with OC Transpo, I’ve had a couple of drivers pull over and ask, ‘What bus are you waiting for, where are you going?’ and they tell me to hop on,” he says. “There are flashes of decency here and there.”

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...ips-cancelled-in-nearly-one-month-period
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  #4690  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 1:31 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Battery electric buses are really taking off.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-23/electric-buses-are-hurting-the-oil-industry

OC Transpo needs to start trialling some and developing a strategy to switch.

I wish the feds would actually jump on this. It's a great way to actually cut emissions, reduce local smog and improve the fiscal capacity of transit authorities, since these buses would save 3000-4000L of fuel per year, and incur lower maintenance costs. Cities need to push the Feds to fund a long term replacement program. $1-2B a year over 10-15 years would transform bus transit in Canada.
This is very much a no-brainer strategy. There is really no excuse at this point for most agencies not to have a program up and running within 5 years that makes an aggressive push towards transitioning to electric technology.
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  #4691  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 1:31 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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This is very much a no-brainer strategy. There is really no excuse at this point for most agencies not to have a program up and running within 5 years that makes an aggressive push towards transitioning to electric technology.
I really wish the feds showed leadership on this. More than all those electric car subsidies, this would have made a real difference.

Imagine they offered $2 billion a year for 10-15 years and offered to pay for any transit agency replacing a diesel bus and pursuing an electrification strategy. That guaranteed demand for 2000 buses a year would have built a battery electric bus industry in Canada, while cutting the emissions equivalent of 60 000 cars annually, while actually making a noticeable difference on air quality for some major urban corridors.

Not pursuing easy wins like this in favour of low impact political theatre has me pretty upset with this government.
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  #4692  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 3:29 AM
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Trialing electric buses would be an expensive proposition for OC Transpo. As shown by their failed attempt at using hybrid buses, they are incapable of limiting buses to specific routes. As a result, they would need to build dozens of charging stations across the city to ensure every route on the network has access to one. Better to let other cities trial the buses and then have Ottawa go all in once the technology is proven.
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  #4693  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 12:18 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Trialing electric buses would be an expensive proposition for OC Transpo. As shown by their failed attempt at using hybrid buses, they are incapable of limiting buses to specific routes. As a result, they would need to build dozens of charging stations across the city to ensure every route on the network has access to one. Better to let other cities trial the buses and then have Ottawa go all in once the technology is proven.
Few points.

First, buses have peak usage in the morning and afternoon. This means that at least some of the fleet can be pulled offline to charge.

Next, with OC Transpo migrating to more of a feed strategy with LRT, we have the perfect place to deploy fast chargers at all the suburban LRT stations with bus loops.

Lastly, the batteries and buses themselves have been improving so much that in 3-5 years they'll be viable on most if not all our routes year-round without much non-depot charging. Which is why OC Transpo needs to get on to planning a strategy. The lifecycle costs are getting competitive with diesel. They should be planning on how to rage advantage of this change.
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  #4694  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 12:59 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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On the topic of electric buses, the first one arrived in Toronto yesterday. https://twitter.com/JohnTory/status/1117883067970965509

I agree with TrueNorth00. Even if Ottawa starts the process for starting to use electric buses today, it would likely be 3 - 5 years before they even hit the road. There is no reason not to start making this shift, and now is the time to start planning for it, and making it happen.
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  #4695  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 1:55 PM
corynv corynv is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Trialing electric buses would be an expensive proposition for OC Transpo. As shown by their failed attempt at using hybrid buses, they are incapable of limiting buses to specific routes. As a result, they would need to build dozens of charging stations across the city to ensure every route on the network has access to one. Better to let other cities trial the buses and then have Ottawa go all in once the technology is proven.
You only need charging stations across the city if you're doing short haul buses (for lack of a better term) like Nova's. There are long haul buses that can do up to 600km on a single charge. And if we got those we wouldn't need nearly as many charging stations.
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  #4696  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 2:07 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by corynv View Post
You only need charging stations across the city if you're doing short haul buses (for lack of a better term) like Nova's. There are long haul buses that can do up to 600km on a single charge. And if we got those we wouldn't need nearly as many charging stations.
There are now buses that can do 600 km in summer and 200 km at -40 in the winter. So all you need is charging at the LRT stations they are feeding and their 5 min stop would pick up enough charge for most of another run. Whatever extra labour is incurred from running a few more buses per route, would be offset by substantially lower maintenance and fuel costs.

At the very least, there should be a sincere trial on several types of routes in Ottawa to categorize and determine operational patterns and lifecycle costs of BEBs as they apply to OC Transpo.
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  #4697  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 2:32 PM
danishh danishh is offline
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I'm not convinced on electric buses, though obviously the technology is getting there. Long-term, it seems industrial use will go either natural gas or hydrogen with fuel cells with an electric drivetrain.

The biggest problem in Ottawa is going to be range reduction in the winter and operational challenges (converting from depot refuelling to station recharging).

New Flyer has a project with Ballard Power for a fuel cell bus that just got cleared for US Federal govt funding (https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/ne...gible-for-federal-funding-856813327.html). I'm sure with 2 Canadian companies, and natural gas being the prime source of generating H2, the feds could get on board in a multi-partisan way. Doug Ford might even go for it.
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  #4698  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2019, 3:04 PM
JohnnyRenton JohnnyRenton is offline
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The biggest problem in Ottawa is going to be range reduction in the winter and operational challenges (converting from depot refuelling to station recharging).
Winnipeg, who has even colder, harsher winters than Ottawa, has been running electric buses on the line to the airport for years now. They have a charging point at the airport, and another at the start of the line. It is actually a simple system. Operationally it would actually save a not insignificant amount of labour as you no longer need to refuel vehicles. You can just plug them in (or raise a pantograph, depending on the system), and let them charge.
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  #4699  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2019, 2:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
First, buses have peak usage in the morning and afternoon. This means that at least some of the fleet can be pulled offline to charge.
You are assuming that the buses are never deployed to all day routes. We can't make that assumption as OC Transpo is incapable of restricting a model of bus from certain routes.

Quote:
Next, with OC Transpo migrating to more of a feed strategy with LRT, we have the perfect place to deploy fast chargers at all the suburban LRT stations with bus loops.
Agreed, but until Stage 3 is complete, not all routes will travel to LRT stations, and I will say it again, OC Transpo can't guarantee that the electric buses would be limited to routes that serve LRT stations.

Quote:
Lastly, the batteries and buses themselves have been improving so much that in 3-5 years they'll be viable on most if not all our routes year-round without much non-depot charging. Which is why OC Transpo needs to get on to planning a strategy. The lifecycle costs are getting competitive with diesel. They should be planning on how to rage advantage of this change.
As you later stated, the range gets shortened in winter. Battery technology is getting better, but chemistry limits the maximum charge density a Li Ion battery can have. Maybe someone will come up with an even better battery technology, but I wouldn't assume that it will happen in the next 3-5 years.

I am not against electric buses, but I also don't think it is a bad thing that OC Transpo is watching what other cities are doing for now as long as we learn from their mistakes.
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  #4700  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2019, 2:38 AM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
You are assuming that the buses are never deployed to all day routes. We can't make that assumption as OC Transpo is incapable of restricting a model of bus from certain routes.



Agreed, but until Stage 3 is complete, not all routes will travel to LRT stations, and I will say it again, OC Transpo can't guarantee that the electric buses would be limited to routes that serve LRT stations.
They are definitely capable of restricting certain types of buses. Before double deckers became commonplace they were only ever used during peak periods. Some routes are also not cleared to be done by double deckers (the 299 for instance, I believe).

Generally, OC Transpo doesn't have any hard restrictions on what bus can run which route because with the fleet we have they have no reason to, but that doesn't mean they couldn't if they had to.
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