The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[osmo]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Probably won’t be much of anything done. It takes decades to get anything done in Toronto.

That said, I am in favour of the province taking over the subway, and in fact I’m in favour of them taking over all transit in the GTHA and eliminating the TTC and other municipal systems. Metro Vancouver has a single transit system administered by the province and it is much more efficient than the patchwork of systems in the GTA - and they get stuff done. I am in awe at how the entirety of the Skytrain system has been built in only the past 35 years.

I believe Metrolinx was birthed to mimic Translink and ultimately take over all the agencies. That plan isn't going to work through until funding is stable and predictable. I believe Translink has a stable funding stream which enables it to be swift in implementing its capital plans.

A Province agency removed from politics which sole job is to build and operate transit would be a dream.

[CityTech]

Metrolinx was originally conceived of as an arms length transit planning agency. Only a few years later did it take over GO Transit operation.

As we've seen, however, Metrolinx has not been arms length at all, and there has been quite a bit of political interference in its plans.

[ainvan]

Vancouver SKYTRAIN: Expo Line to the NEW COMMERCIAL/BROADWAY PLATFORM 5

• Video Link

[Mister F]

Yup, the way that transportation is governed in the Toronto area is fundamentally broken. The fact that in the last 35 years Vancouver has gone from nothing to a larger rapid transit system than Toronto is proof of that. Until we get a truly regional transportation agency with predictable funding free from political meddling, we're never going to get to where we need to be. This pattern of new premiers and mayors trotting out new transit plans every few years is maddening.

[CityTech]

^ In fairness to Ford he's keeping Wynne's signature project for Toronto - GO RER. The Hurontario and Finch LRT lines as well.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by CityTech

^ In fairness to Ford he's keeping Wynne's signature project for Toronto - GO RER. The Hurontario and Finch LRT lines as well.

So far it does seem as if he's a bit less unhinged than Rob was (just doing stuff out of spite, optics, whim, etc.) I mostly assumed they were basically the same since many commentators described Doug as the behind the scenes director of many of Rob's actions.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

So far it does seem as if he's a bit less unhinged than Rob was (just doing stuff out of spite, optics, whim, etc.) I mostly assumed they were basically the same since many commentators described Doug as the behind the scenes director of many of Rob's actions.

This isn't really a consequence of the two brothers being different, it's more a consequence of the City of Toronto and the Province of Ontario being different governments. There's a lot more to "rein in" a premier than a mayor (cabinet, caucus, bureaucracy, etc.). Based on what we've heard from leaks and insider reports and such it does sound like the PC caucus and its experienced politicians in cabinet (like Christine Elliott and Lisa MacLeod) are doing a pretty good job moderating Ford's excesses. The PCs nearly faced a caucus revolt in the fall; someone leaked to the Star that as many as 7 backbenchers were reportedly negotiating with the Liberals to cross the floor.

Doug Ford's government is proving to be much more centrist than I think a lot of people were expecting/predicting. In fact, other than the carbon tax issue, there isn't much differentiating the current Ford administration from the one Patrick Brown would probably have been running.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Yup, the way that transportation is governed in the Toronto area is fundamentally broken. The fact that in the last 35 years Vancouver has gone from nothing to a larger rapid transit system than Toronto is proof of that. Until we get a truly regional transportation agency with predictable funding free from political meddling, we're never going to get to where we need to be. This pattern of new premiers and mayors trotting out new transit plans every few years is maddening.

One regional transit provider across the GTA may end up being too big and inefficient and it probably won't solve the underlying political issues of trying to please everyone through the self interests of the decision makers.

[milomilo]

The GTA isn't exactly huge, it seems obvious to me you would have one transit body serving it. Like Transport for London, which serves 8 million people with a much more complex transit system.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by CityTech

This isn't really a consequence of the two brothers being different, it's more a consequence of the City of Toronto and the Province of Ontario being different governments. There's a lot more to "rein in" a premier than a mayor (cabinet, caucus, bureaucracy, etc.). Based on what we've heard from leaks and insider reports and such it does sound like the PC caucus and its experienced politicians in cabinet (like Christine Elliott and Lisa MacLeod) are doing a pretty good job moderating Ford's excesses. The PCs nearly faced a caucus revolt in the fall; someone leaked to the Star that as many as 7 backbenchers were reportedly negotiating with the Liberals to cross the floor.

Doug Ford's government is proving to be much more centrist than I think a lot of people were expecting/predicting. In fact, other than the carbon tax issue, there isn't much differentiating the current Ford administration from the one Patrick Brown would probably have been running.

While everything you stated is quite true, there is also one VERY big difference between the two...……...Rob was a drug addict and Doug isn't. Although I don't like Doug, at least you could sit down in a room with the man and have a rational conversation which was simply not optional with Rob.

Doug also, as noted, is the Premier of a province and not the counsellor of a city so he has a lot of backbenchers to keep happy. This is why his newest transit plan is quite a good one and maintains GO/RER as well as that serves a lot of very important Conservative 905 voters and he knows that a lot of middle income people rely on transit. Frankly I was quite happy and surprised, and so were most Torontonians, {except those on the left who were hoping he would cancel the DRL so they would have more to bitch about} that he has made the DRL his first priority and made it a much larger and more functional line.

His budget is also far more reasoned than what many {from both the left and the right} were expecting. He is a prick but he seems to be governing from a far less irresponsible right-wing agenda than many had anticipated.

[Chadillaccc]

Lol yeah, Doug just dealt them.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

While everything you stated is quite true, there is also one VERY big difference between the two...……...Rob was a drug addict and Doug isn't. Although I don't like Doug, at least you could sit down in a room with the man and have a rational conversation which was simply not optional with Rob.

Doug also, as noted, is the Premier of a province and not the counsellor of a city so he has a lot of backbenchers to keep happy. This is why his newest transit plan is quite a good one and maintains GO/RER as well as that serves a lot of very important Conservative 905 voters and he knows that a lot of middle income people rely on transit. Frankly I was quite happy and surprised, and so were most Torontonians, {except those on the left who were hoping he would cancel the DRL so they would have more to bitch about} that he has made the DRL his first priority and made it a much larger and more functional line.

His budget is also far more reasoned than what many {from both the left and the right} were expecting. He is a prick but he seems to be governing from a far less irresponsible right-wing agenda than many had anticipated.

Making statements and budgets are one thing. This has happened before, the big plans. It is action that needs to happen. This is what we all need to see. Speeches and lines on maps do not necessarily build rapid transit.

Also, changing plans and moving lines on maps leads to inaction. There needs to be follow through and without re-thinking over and over again. It is a common political ploy to keep re-thinking, re-studying, re-announcing with the end result, that everything just keeps getting delayed.

Doug Ford needs to prove that he is a man of action, not just a man of rhetoric.

I don't believe politicians until I see the shovel in the ground.

[TorontoDrew]

It's already estimated Duhg Fords plan will cost the city at least another 2 years of delays.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

It's already estimated Duhg Fords plan will cost the city at least another 2 years of delays.

Aside from the Scarborough Subway the city had no funding set for anything else announced by Ford. Unless you believe that the coutunual escalation of price with the Scarborough Subway would not have caused delays with its current timeline (which keeps on getting delayed because they have to reconfigure plans due to costs rising continually), it is safe to assume things are moving along as planned. The only hindrance is that DRL plans now have to be retooled but DRL had zero funding prior to this announcement and it was destined for plan to see it's end life to sit on a City shelf collecting dust.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

It's already estimated Duhg Fords plan will cost the city at least another 2 years of delays.

It doesn't have to though, only if you want to implement the project through conventional delivery. You can run an EA and RFI then RFQ simultaneously, leading to either a design build or a P3 contract. It isn't like the scope will change enough that the projects would qualify or not qualify different bidders. All of the projects are large enough that it would be a stretch for any left field bidders to be successful.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by osmo

Aside from the Scarborough Subway the city had no funding set for anything else announced by Ford. Unless you believe that the coutunual escalation of price with the Scarborough Subway would not have caused delays with its current timeline (which keeps on getting delayed because they have to reconfigure plans due to costs rising continually), it is safe to assume things are moving along as planned. The only hindrance is that DRL plans now have to be retooled but DRL had zero funding prior to this announcement and it was destined for plan to see it's end life to sit on a City shelf collecting dust.

Pretty much.

Also, I’m not a believer in letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, but the City’s EA-approved DRL plan had so many glaring omissions that I think it’s worth sending back to the drawing board. Chief among them is that the line didn’t go west of Osgoode (job and population growth in this area has been astronomical), and didn’t go north of Danforth on the east side. This means that it would have been decades before the relief line was extended to Eglinton and Don Mills (where it actually needs to go to provide relief) or extending west of University avenue.

I suppose the reason for this is because the city planners decided on the technology first, rather than on the routing/destinations. The route had to fit the high costs of the TTC’s current subway technology, rather than the needs of where people need to travel to or from. If you need to build stations supporting a 150m long train, with full-length mezzanine levels above the platforms, then, sure, you have to build a fairly short line to keep the costs and the timeline from being blown beyond anything reasonable.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Pretty much.

Also, I’m not a believer in letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, but the City’s EA-approved DRL plan had so many glaring omissions that I think it’s worth sending back to the drawing board. Chief among them is that the line didn’t go west of Osgoode (job and population growth in this area has been astronomical), and didn’t go north of Danforth on the east side. This means that it would have been decades before the relief line was extended to Eglinton and Don Mills (where it actually needs to go to provide relief) or extending west of University avenue.

I suppose the reason for this is because the city planners decided on the technology first, rather than on the routing/destinations. The route had to fit the high costs of the TTC’s current subway technology, rather than the needs of where people need to travel to or from. If you need to build stations supporting a 150m long train, with full-length mezzanine levels above the platforms, then, sure, you have to build a fairly short line to keep the costs and the timeline from being blown beyond anything reasonable.

If I recall part of the reason that the City made such a tiny DRL plan is that to cross the Don river and go north from the Danforth is going to need a large and expensive infrastructure bridge segment which would have blown up costs. They kept it thrifty and tiny likely for political reasons as they wanted to create a plan to get funding (which isn't how you should plan transit). That bait was laid as the City knows the Province would be open to dump money to make sure that the future Great/First Gulf Unilever lands has Subway access.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by osmo

Aside from the Scarborough Subway the city had no funding set for anything else announced by Ford. Unless you believe that the coutunual escalation of price with the Scarborough Subway would not have caused delays with its current timeline (which keeps on getting delayed because they have to reconfigure plans due to costs rising continually), it is safe to assume things are moving along as planned. The only hindrance is that DRL plans now have to be retooled but DRL had zero funding prior to this announcement and it was destined for plan to see it's end life to sit on a City shelf collecting dust.

Actually, the city/TTC was already looking to procure the boring machines, this stops that process if we are actually to believe the provinces new plan. Aslo it's very easy for one level of government to make a financial promise stating they will cover 1/3rd of a non existent plan forcing the city and feds to go along with it or look bad. This is nothing more then a stunt which is going to cost us more delays.

If it were not for the Ford's at city hall Toronto's fully funded transit city would be up and running by now, the DRL would be possibly be u/c.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Actually, the city/TTC was already looking to procure the boring machines, this stops that process if we are actually to believe the provinces new plan. Aslo it's very easy for one level of government to make a financial promise stating they will cover 1/3rd of a non existent plan forcing the city and feds to go along with it or look bad. This is nothing more then a stunt which is going to cost us more delays.

If it were not for the Ford's at city hall Toronto's fully funded transit city would be up and running by now, the DRL would be possibly be u/c.

That the city thought it should do that shows how wrong headed the city's process for building things is, which doesn't take advantage of any knowledge gained from the past 50 years worldwide of welfare gains when you do design-build, or even more, design-build-maintain. Why would they lock in the machines when that also locks in station design - especially when the world wide trend is moving towards single bore as a source of cost savings. Given the length of time the projects will take, the boring machines' long lead times are not a critical path item - not having them ordered on day 1 will not delay the project by the delivery time.


And Transit City, as much as I liked the plan, it had a lot of glaring holes in the various project budgets to be filled. IIRC at the time the projects hadn't included things like rolling stock or maintenance yards. As we saw with the new Toronto Street Cars and the new maintenance centre for them, those things can be incredibly expensive.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Yup, the way that transportation is governed in the Toronto area is fundamentally broken. The fact that in the last 35 years Vancouver has gone from nothing to a larger rapid transit system than Toronto is proof of that. Until we get a truly regional transportation agency with predictable funding free from political meddling, we're never going to get to where we need to be. This pattern of new premiers and mayors trotting out new transit plans every few years is maddening.

Well, I do agree that Vancouvers system is larger in length there is a lot of extra factors that have come up for Toronto: the streetcar network has been drastically improved in some areas and some lines act as near LRT level service. The Toronto subway also has significantly more capacity than the Skytrain which makes extending it more cost intensive.

Toronto also has about 30+ km of rapid transit under construction while Vancouver has nothing, and even with the Broadway Subway Toronto will be way ahead.

Its also worth considering the MASSIVE amount of money thats being spent to upgrade GO, UP already provides a rapid and frequent service across Western Toronto and the Lakeshore GO Line's are getting up to similar frequencies (as well as having express trains). That doesn't even consider improvements in York, Mississauga etc which when factored in would give Toronto at least triple the rapid transit miles of Metro Vancouver.

TLDR Toronto is misleading. While the TTC has not grown much a ton of projects are being built in other cities surrounding Toronto, on GO, and severalbig projects a re under construction in Toronto.

Originally Posted by milomilo

The GTA isn't exactly huge, it seems obvious to me you would have one transit body serving it. Like Transport for London, which serves 8 million people with a much more complex transit system.

the GTHA which is there region Metrolinx serves is over 4 times large (in terms of area) to Greater London and also has around 8 million people it is not a small problem.