Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Millennium2002

They'd be handy as alternate routes, that's for sure. But given the proximity to Broadway, there probably won't be a full-time route using it.

Maybe it's just me, but there appears to be a massive spin / disinformation campaign going on targeting the regional SkyTrain projects. Some people are really betting their hopes on hitting the brakes at the last minute. There was that silly argument before Vancouver city council that SNC-Lavalin's "proprietary" technology will force us to accept their corrupt practices... then there were claims that we could easily shift this hard-earned transit project money towards social housing... oh and finally, there were those two separate proposals for either all-day West Coast Express or the hydrogen-powered interurban line...

It's like people have nothing better to do than complain about something being (or not being) in their backyards... Sigh. And I'm actually starting to worry that somehow one of these will gain traction and derail all of the hard work we've done.

The West Coast Express concept was never proposed to be built in place of any current Skytrain projects.

Please don't automatically take any suggestion of commuter rail / other rapid transit projects (or even highway projects) as direct attacks on Skytrain.

If that is how you look at things may as well throw the SFU Gondola on that list as well.

In fact the WCE article clearly stated that the Evergreen Line is the main reason why an all day bidirectional service can now realistically be done.

Now the idea of building LRT instead of Skytrain along Broadway is a direct attack on Skytrain. World of difference between such suggestions bud.

(One can support Skytrain to UBC, Skytrain to Langley and expanded WCE service!)

I feel this forum doesn't have the clear head it once did regarding transit expansion. Never thought expanding the WCE would get so much resistance and even get jumbled in peoples minds as an assault on the Broadway Subway project... like WTF?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I feel this forum doesn't have the clear head it once did regarding transit expansion. Never thought expanding the WCE would get so much resistance and even get jumbled in peoples minds as an assault on the Broadway Subway project... like WTF?

How does "there's no funding for more WCE so it won't happen yet" translate into "resistance?" Gotta put it on hold for the next Ten Year Plan, that's all; no amount of "But Montreal!" or "But Toronto!" will change that.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

How does "there's no funding for more WCE so it won't happen yet" translate into "resistance?" Gotta put it on hold for the next Ten Year Plan, that's all; no amount of "But Montreal!" or "But Toronto!" will change that.

That was not what the comment I quoted said, he said this:

“Maybe it's just me, but there appears to be a massive spin / disinformation campaign going on targeting the regional SkyTrain projects. Some people are really betting their hopes on hitting the brakes at the last minute.”

And he then went on to list NIMBY campaigns against the Broadway Skytrain and for some reason the idea of expanding the WCE, even though the idea of expanding the WCE never ever mentioned or even indirectly suggested any stoppage of the Broadway or Langley Skytrain projects.

I just find it bizarre to confuse the two issues together.

And you know what, you may be right, expanding the WCE probably is best to be done within the next transit expansion program after the 10 year plan is complete. But seeing how long all the current projects have been studied and discussed (literally decades before now) maybe at least preliminary discussion of expanding the WCE should be starting now.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

That was not what the comment I quoted said, he said this:

“Maybe it's just me, but there appears to be a massive spin / disinformation campaign going on targeting the regional SkyTrain projects. Some people are really betting their hopes on hitting the brakes at the last minute.”

And he then went on to list NIMBY campaigns against the Broadway Skytrain and for some reason the idea of expanding the WCE, even though the idea of expanding the WCE never ever mentioned or even indirectly suggested any stoppage of the Broadway or Langley Skytrain projects.

I just find it bizarre to confuse the two issues together.

And you know what, you may be right, expanding the WCE probably is best to be done within the next transit expansion program after the 10 year plan is complete. But seeing how long all the current projects have been studied and discussed (literally decades before now) maybe at least preliminary discussion of expanding the WCE should be starting now.

Stand Alone Complex strikes again?

I agree entirely, get the prework done now. Thing is, even the studies range into the octuple digits - the recent study for the SFU Gondola had to be worked into the Ten Year Plan budget!

[WestCoastEcho]

Former Premier Mike Harcourt is proposing a mega version of the UBC extension:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...t-heavy-rapid-transit-proposal-1.5093303

Combined with the planned Broadway subway project that will bring rapid transit from the VCC-Clark station to Arbutus Street, the cost is expected to run roughly $7 billion.

But for Mike Harcourt, that's not enough.

The former B.C. premier and Vancouver mayor wants people to think even bigger when it comes to planning the next few decades of public transportation.

"It's one of the great cities of the world, and the people of Vancouver deserve the best transportation system we can get," said Harcourt on Wednesday.

His pitch — which has been in the works for about four years, and has been publicly floated before — is to build a rapid transit line all the way from Lougheed Mall in Burnaby to the University of British Columbia. The majority of the quadruple track line would be tunnelled.

"We just need to up our game," said Harcourt. "[The current plan] is not ambitious enough, and it's not in keeping with the way we have done things — boldly and long term — here in the Greater Vancouver area."

As examples, Harcourt mentioned the Cleveland Dam in North Vancouver and Stanley Park as projects with enduring benefit to the region.

The idea is to have two express tracks and two local tracks. The express tracks could get from Lougheed to UBC in 20 minutes, according to Harcourt.

"We've got to be bold and we can finance it," he said.

His plan, crafted alongside Mauro Chiesa, a transit development expert who has organized the financing of tunnel projects worldwide, would require:

$4 billion in funding from the federal and provincial governments (nearly half of which has already been committed for the first phase of the Broadway subway plan).
$2.4 billion drawn from property development charges from Burnaby, Vancouver and UBC.
$3 billion from private capital and pension funds.

[s211]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

Former Premier Mike Harcourt is proposing a mega version of the UBC extension:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...t-heavy-rapid-transit-proposal-1.5093303

I was at a presentation where Harcourt spoke in the same manner, like money somehow just falls from trees: ""we can finance it,".

Reminds me of when he was in power in the 90s. Wasn't there a great magazine cover back then that did a fantastic parody of his spend spend spend image?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Much as we'd all love this, I would also like to see sources for those numbers. We've barely coughed up $2.9 bil for Arbutus.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Heh, I see what you did there.

It's more like the same "influential" people over and over again, and I can count them all on one hand. Most of the Metro (including nine-tenths of Vancouver proper) realizes that SkyTrain is best, and have learned to ignore them or argue them down.

It's Zweisystem, isn't it?

[jollyburger]

They get paid money to talk and write papers to help their employers.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

Former Premier Mike Harcourt is proposing a mega version of the UBC extension:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...t-heavy-rapid-transit-proposal-1.5093303

Haha, we can go from having 2 car M-Line trains to having a quad tracked monster because the ridership justifies this, right? He's looking the wrong way, really...

A proper rail tunnel under the Fraser from New West to Surrey and express commuter rail/eventual Seattle high speed rail would be what would probably make the most sense if we're looking for spend a lot of money on an express system. The express/RER trains could roughly parallel the Expo line, and the HSR could through run to downtown.

I'm not a former premier though.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

It's Zweisystem, isn't it?

More like Condon, Hardwick and Murphy, with Fitch as a sidekick. Zwei's an easily-detected troll, and nobody else is even worth mention in the grand scheme of things.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Haha, we can go from having 2 car M-Line trains to having a quad tracked monster because the ridership justifies this, right? He's looking the wrong way, really...

A proper rail tunnel under the Fraser from New West to Surrey and express commuter rail/eventual Seattle high speed rail would be what would probably make the most sense if we're looking for spend a lot of money on an express system. The express/RER trains could roughly parallel the Expo line, and the HSR could through run to downtown.

I'm not a former premier though.

In the grand scheme of things he's right, but also misguided.

If we had unlimited money, what we would be building are tunnels with four tracks in them (eg two on top of two), where the local trains run on the lower platform and the express trains run on the upper platform. Which obviously doubles the construction cost for the guideway alone.

That would enable both express service and 24 hour operation (as the tracks can be alternated for maintenance.) However from an engineering perspective, it's a lot harder to build switches that change elevation (the switch that gets stuck the most is the one at Columbia, where the center tracks go over the Skybridge and the tracks that go around it are part of the millennium line.) So just imagine that kind of thing instead of pocket tracks.

If 4 tracks were to be built at the same grade, then there's no cost savings, you're still building more tunnels, only now there's no second set of platforms at the stations, and express trains still have to contend with local trains at platforms. So the capacity isn't increased, it just increases the point-to-point speed of one specific set of stops.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

More like Condon, Hardwick and Murphy, with Fitch as a sidekick. Zwei's an easily-detected troll, and nobody else is even worth mention in the grand scheme of things.

I find that Fitch always sockpuppets Zwei's opinion spam.

The real danger is Condon because Global News keeps using him as an authority on transit when he seemingly knows nothing, and drops misinformation about transit. Since he's a professor at UBC about Urban design, somehow the news media believe he's an authority on anything.

This guy is the reason cities have been changing their OCP into destroying their main attractions in favor of making people not have a a reason to leave their community. All in the name of GHG reduction. Really, go look at https://www.cnv.org/your-government/sust...itiatives/100-year-sustainability-vision , and notice a large emphasis on GHG reduction and almost no mention of transit except in the negative.

Forward VII:

A more
even and accessible distribution of land uses,
most notably the allowance for neighbourhood
commercial space within a five minute walk of all
citizens, will dramatically reduce the need to use
personal vehicles, and increase the viability of
frequent bus, trolley bus, and streetcar systems.

There's a suggestion of reintroducing streetcars/LRT on page 79.

That's the thing, there is no priority put on moving people with any frequency, it's the assumption that GHG reduction is achieved by trapping people in their communities, which is how the Surrey LRT was planned as well. Somehow this GHG reduction is achieved by making the city completely unattractive to any business that requires office space. Work, Eat and Sleep all within walking distance is the end game.

Yet any reasonable person knows that people choose to live where they can afford, and choose jobs that fit their career aspirations, and rarely will those two locations overlap. Condon's plans do not change that status quo. Only regulations requiring that employers provide housing for their employees would, and that's a hard pill to swallow if your neighbours don't do it.

[Bdawe]

Ya, I've never quite seen on what historically informed grounds people think that 'spreading the jobs around' has ever resulted in lower GHGs. Sure, people from the outer suburbs have to travel lower distances, but they are far more likely to do so by car, and spread-the-jobs-around only makes the two-body problem worse

[Migrant_Coconut]

Don't forget that "spread the jobs" only solves part of the problem; 35% of all trips (2017 survey, pg 43) are people moving around the city during or after work before heading home.

Originally Posted by Kisai

I find that Fitch always sockpuppets Zwei's opinion spam.

Give Fitch some credit, he actually talks intelligently. His problem is more that he's in the Okanagan drawing lines on Google Maps with not much prior research - many of us have done similar backseat planning.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Kisai

I find that Fitch always sockpuppets Zwei's opinion spam.

The real danger is Condon because Global News keeps using him as an authority on transit when he seemingly knows nothing, and drops misinformation about transit. Since he's a professor at UBC about Urban design, somehow the news media believe he's an authority on anything.

This guy is the reason cities have been changing their OCP into destroying their main attractions in favor of making people not have a a reason to leave their community. All in the name of GHG reduction. Really, go look at https://www.cnv.org/your-government/sust...itiatives/100-year-sustainability-vision , and notice a large emphasis on GHG reduction and almost no mention of transit except in the negative.

Forward VII:

There's a suggestion of reintroducing streetcars/LRT on page 79.

That's the thing, there is no priority put on moving people with any frequency, it's the assumption that GHG reduction is achieved by trapping people in their communities, which is how the Surrey LRT was planned as well. Somehow this GHG reduction is achieved by making the city completely unattractive to any business that requires office space. Work, Eat and Sleep all within walking distance is the end game.

Yet any reasonable person knows that people choose to live where they can afford, and choose jobs that fit their career aspirations, and rarely will those two locations overlap. Condon's plans do not change that status quo. Only regulations requiring that employers provide housing for their employees would, and that's a hard pill to swallow if your neighbours don't do it.

It mentions transit in the positive. It doesn't mention fast transit, or even sped up transit.

GHGs do go down if you don't have to move as far, but that's the ideal and is unrealistic to expect everyone to do. Distributing jobs helps transit as well as GHGs because it allows for less high-capacity systems or more corridors to suffice, cutting costs.

Whether companies want to play by this game is a different story. Probably not.

[Millennium2002]

This is a late response to why I'm concerned about all these other proposals coming up.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not against any rapid project that is outside the current master plan. I think I've already made it known my support for SFU Gondola and better North Shore / Queensborough links. Those make a ton of economic sense.

The business case for the West Coast Express idea, on the other hand, is less clear cut given that a RapidBus will be running parallel to the route in the near future. It's possible that the ridership on the existing commuter service could drop post-implementation. And that is why I interpreted it as a distraction from our priorities.

The point I'm getting at is that the pot of money that we have for rapid transit projects is finite. We should be careful about what we spend it on. Novelty projects that only benefit a few riders should be required to wait until current projects or plans are complete.

[Feathered Friend]

Dropping in briefly at West Point Grey Residents Association meeting, with panellists Elizabeth Murphy, Patrick Condon, Larry Benge, Supposed to be about Jericho lands, but this part mostly about Broadway subway.

https://twitter.com/fabulavancouver/status/1116538224841617410

An interesting live tweet session from one of Vancouver's most respected voices.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Heh, I see what you did there.

It's more like the same "influential" people over and over again, and I can count them all on one hand. Most of the Metro (including nine-tenths of Vancouver proper) realizes that SkyTrain is best, and have learned to ignore them or argue them down.

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

https://twitter.com/fabulavancouver/status/1116538224841617410

An interesting live tweet session from one of Vancouver's most respected voices.

"Respected"

[fredinno]

From the Twitter conversation:

Condon gets applause for making the argument that Vancouver will be spending $1 billion per minute to save people travel time on a subway vs streetcar.

...Where do I begin?

Even if it's $1B a minute (it's not, it's closer to 17min overall vs $7B in cost), $1B a minute divided by everyone using the line, not including transfer times.

Also, streetcars are generally used for redevelopment in N. America, and are horrible as actual transportation (unless they mean LRT). And then they're against development? What? Can you at least TRY to have a coherent argument?